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Quiz Question #22


What Would You do?  

251 members have voted

  1. 1. Call or Fold?

    • Call
      70
    • Fold
      181


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I refuse to answer this question, because we played it so badly up to this point. I'd never ever check the flop in that spot. All we're doing is refusing to put money in the pot in a spot where we're ahead, but still vulnerable. It's a terrible case of FPS. Also, since villian expects us to bet with anything there, we're basically telling him that we have nothing or a monster making it even harder to get paid off if we show strength later on. I guess as played, I'd have to call the river since the only hand that's beating us is A3s, and it really does look like we have KK here. I could easily see villian missing some sort of draw and then thinking he can get us off the hand at the end because we don't have an ace. I don't think he can possibly put us on AK the way we played it, he'll either think we have almost nothing or a monster, and neither one of those is something he'd want to overbet all-in with even if he did have A3.OK, I changed my mind about the question as I was typing out this post. It's a good question and it's a call. The point is that villian can't put us on a medium strength hand, he's either going to read us as weak or for a monster. As such, he's not going to overbet a real hand into us. If he's got the straight, he'll C/R the river or bet it small looking to reraise, and if he's got two pair, he'll either c/c or make a smallish value bet. Since he won't expect us to pay off an overbet without a huge hand, the only logical conclusion is that he's trying to bluff us off the pot.
A9, A8, A7, A3, JT, 56, T6, 33, 77, 88, 99, 78, 79, 89Yup. Only A3 beats us.Check-raising the river seems retarded since the way the hand has played out, it's a realistic possibility that we have nothing and won't bet anyway.
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without knowing ANYTHING about the player
This is impossible. Even if it is the first hand dealt, you know something about the player by looking at him. This info would help make the decision a lot easier. Young, cocky looking internet player? Insta-call this donk-bet.
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This is impossible. Even if it is the first hand dealt, you know something about the player by looking at him. This info would help make the decision a lot easier. Young, cocky looking internet player? Insta-call this donk-bet.
You call if this is Dan Harrington. You call if this is Dewey Tomko.
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For those who fold...what is your line in the sand? Assuming everything else is the same, what is the weakest hand you call with? Here are the hands, in order, that beat AK - and realistically, 4 of them are definitely not in either player's holdings.738387939798A3A7A8A933778899AA56T6JTSame with those who call...what's the weakest hand you call with?Personally, I hope I can go with my read that he doesn't have an ace, and therefore call with any ace, along with any pocket pair down to Ten. I honestly think Q9 is good here, but probably couldn't pull the trigger on that. Realistically, AJ is likely my comfort point because people play Aces in goofy ways, especially AT-AQ.

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This is impossible. Even if it is the first hand dealt, you know something about the player by looking at him. This info would help make the decision a lot easier. Young, cocky looking internet player? Insta-call this donk-bet.
You're guessing about his holding and that's the point. The young cocky internet looking player can be the biggest rock in the game. If you're wrong, you're out of the tournament.
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I would fold thinking he hit a set. If he didn't and I have the best hand, I would hope he makes the same move later when I have the nuts.
I concur. J10 is also a possibility because players love to see flops with that hand, and is a popular blind defending hand. We just gave him a free card and the turn is the 7s. He check-calls your bet of 1K on the turn.....very sketchy.....if he had a hand like 98, A9, A7, or any of the other Aces, you'd think he would want to bet/check-raise here on the turn.The turn is where hands like two pair are won and lost because of the fact you can easily be counterfeited by the river, or bluffed out if a scare card comes, so you really want to be raising right now to define your hand. You'd also want to do this with a set, although some just like to slowplay trips no matter what the board, especially since you can fill up on the river.The fact the flush draw doesn't scare him leads me to believe that he may even have Js10s, giving him a redraw. Although, I would say that the A98 board is not one I would slowplay, even heads up. There is a decent draw out there for potential hands people love to see (J10,56) and I would definitely come out betting. I want to find out if the villian had flopped a set of 9's or 8's, has two pairs with 98, or if he has a weaker Ace we can value bet him on. So if you check on the flop in an attempt to trap with this hand, you sometimes have to fold when the scare card get there and your villian wakes up with the betting. The point of being a strong post flop player is knowing when you're giving up equity that you will sometimes just have to give up your good but not great hand and wait for a better spot. The only hand you can beat for a called raise is either a bluff or AQ/AJ/A10.If he called to bluff on 4th street to stick it all-in on the river for his tournament life on a board that scary (wouldn't he have to figure if he was going to stick it in with nothing or with something as weak as AJ or A10, that he would be afraid the raiser might have the same hand he trying to represent?), then you just have to tip your cap to him and hope he does it again when you have a stronger hand.
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Same with those who call...what's the weakest hand you call with?Personally, I hope I can go with my read that he doesn't have an ace, and therefore call with any ace, along with any pocket pair down to Ten. I honestly think Q9 is good here, but probably couldn't pull the trigger on that. Realistically, AJ is likely my comfort point because people play Aces in goofy ways, especially AT-AQ.
Pretty much the same for me. I would call with any ace fairly easily, and TT+ after some serious consideration. I agree that K9/Q9 would probably be good, and I might call with it, but it would be tough.
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The only hand you can beat for a called raise is either a bluff or AQ/AJ/A10.If he called to bluff on 4th street to stick it all-in on the river for his tournament life on a board that scary (wouldn't he have to figure if he was going to stick it in with nothing or with something as weak as AJ or A10, that he would be afraid the raiser might have the same hand he trying to represent?), then you just have to tip your cap to him and hope he does it again when you have a stronger hand.
He may have called the turn to bluff the river...or he may have called the turn on a draw, and decided to bluff the river when he missed...eg. 66, TT, T9, two spades, etc, because A: he knows it didn't help you either and B. he has zero reason to think you have an ace, let alone AK.There are a ton of plausible hands he has here that give him tremendous fold equity with a push here - especially if he thinks you're weak...and he has every reason to think you're weak....there are very few hands that give him value with a push here.Unless he's playing this hand as tricky as you are (and, really, for this guy to have a hand that beats you it means both people suffered from FPS here) the only hand I'm worried about is JsTs....one hand. I strongly believe he either leads the turn or check raises the turn with any other straight, set and two pairs, because he has to protect them.In fact, I'd say it's a little dumb not to raise with JsTs...with JsTs you think he would c/r an amount that forces you to call to give him a little more value....even there, if you had JsTs, would you really check the turn hoping you get bet...or wouldn't you be looking to ensure you get some kind of value?Not knowing anything about him, you have to assume he's a typical player.And, IMHO, a typical player leads or c/r's the turn with all hands that beat you at that point....and also folds 93,83,73 and 33.At that point, you're only worried about A3, which can c/c the turn...but I have a hard time seeing A3 push the river.
I would fold putting the opponent on a set or two pair. I can't beat much with the aces and if he's bluffing so be it.Best --Burgerman
Let's assume he doesn't have AA, as he would reraise pf.Let's assume he doesn't have 33, as he would fold the turn.Now, let's assume you have 77, 88, or 99...77 you check the flop 'cause you missed - 88 or 99 you check the flop because you want the pf raiser to bet into your set.Fine - now the turn - If you have 77, 88, or 99 do you typically check your set again, or lead? And if, for whatever reason, you do check, do you then call his bet, with 789 and two spades on board, or do you raise?Don't you think all this rules out a set?And can't you make similar arguments for all the possible two-pair hands at the turn?
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Pretty much the same for me. I would call with any ace fairly easily, and TT+ after some serious consideration. I agree that K9/Q9 would probably be good, and I might call with it, but it would be tough.
Basically, you're saying that he has no hand whatsoever?
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The way this hand was played screams he has the nuts to me. You checking the flop would tell me you could be very strong(which means DO NOT BLUFF). He check called the turn thinking it was possible you had a set when no full house or flush was possible on river he put you all in hoping you were on a set or put him on a bluff.Of course I would never know as I fold that most times. The above is how I can reason with myself into thinking I made a good fold and not go on tilt LOL.Gunn

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The way this hand was played screams he has the nuts to me. You checking the flop would tell me you could be very strong(which means DO NOT BLUFF).
I don't know if it screams that he has the nuts. You make the right point though, that the way the hand has played out, you could have a monster hand and he's still pushing. I'd be worried with 2 pair. Even more worried with TPTK.Will someone please discuss why they think we have to call simply because we made bets to "induce a bluff?" I don't understand this line of reasoning. Just because we are appearing to be weak and he's betting, that doesn't have to mean that he IS weak. I don't like this logic at all.Also, what do we really give up by folding here? If you're going to guess about his holding, I'd rather make the guess that leaves me with the larger margin of error, ie folding. We can assign only one hand that we beat. That hand is a missed draw. The odds that he would push a missed draw on the river when we might have a monster are fairly slim. Since we know nothing about him and we're assuming he's fairly normal, most normal people won't bluff all in with nothing on the river.
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Basically, you're saying that he has no hand whatsoever?
No, but his bet on the river is either the nuts, or it's nothing. I don't buy that it's the nuts. His nothing could be something like 67. It could be J8.If he DOES have a strong hand, why would he push into a player who has what appears to be a weak hand?
Will someone please discuss why they think we have to call simply because we made bets to "induce a bluff?" I don't understand this line of reasoning. Just because we are appearing to be weak and he's betting, that doesn't have to mean that he IS weak. I don't like this logic at all.
It's standard logic. Why would you try to get him to bluff you if you're going to fold when he bets?You don't have to call but if we are folding here, we should not have checked the flop and bet small on the turn.
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I don't know if it screams that he has the nuts. You make the right point though, that the way the hand has played out, you could have a monster hand and he's still pushing. I'd be worried with 2 pair. Even more worried with TPTK.Will someone please discuss why they think we have to call simply because we made bets to "induce a bluff?" I don't understand this line of reasoning. Just because we are appearing to be weak and he's betting, that doesn't have to mean that he IS weak. I don't like this logic at all.Also, what do we really give up by folding here? If you're going to guess about his holding, I'd rather make the guess that leaves me with the larger margin of error, ie folding. We can assign only one hand that we beat. That hand is a missed draw. The odds that he would push a missed draw on the river when we might have a monster are fairly slim. Since we know nothing about him and we're assuming he's fairly normal, most normal people won't bluff all in with nothing on the river.
He has absolutely zero reason to think you have a monster.He has absolutely zero reason to think you have AK.He has every reason to think you have a marginal hand much worse than AK, and that you are very uncomfortable with the ace on the board, let alone the 789.People with the nuts (or 2nd, 3rd, 4th nuts) don't typically grossly overbet a pot all-in against a person they think has a weak hand.Because of this, in his mind, he has an incredible level of fold equity with nothing hands. I don't, for example, necessarily think he does this with A4, as its too marginal in that it could actually be winning, but, at the same time I'm obviously not worried about it.The reason you "trap" is because you think you're ahead...and until you are given reason to change your belief you are ahead you need to follow through when someone falls into the trap...and, IMO, a large bet, on its own, completely out of context of the other streets, does not indicate strength.Yes...we could walk away after dumping 25% of our stack (which is our sacrifice)...and I am generally a proponent that a bad fold is better than a bad call...I simply don't believe this is a bad call.He's either stronger than hell, or has air...and I see no reason to believe he's stronger than hell.Now, I'll go back to my assumption that he is a typical player.I also conclude that a typical player can pull off this type of bluff, for his tournament life.Is that an unreasonable assertion?
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The reason you "trap" is because you think you're ahead...and until you are given reason to change your belief you are ahead you need to follow through when someone falls into the trap...and, IMO, a large bet, on its own, completely out of context of the other streets, does not indicate strength.
We know nothing about this player. You are guessing completely as to what his bet means. If you're going to call, then you are making a guess for your tournament life.Does his bet not give you pause and think, "hmm, maybe I wasn't winning this hand after all."It's also bad to make bluffs that don't make sense. People get curious as to what you're doing, and you get called, which is bad when you're bluffing. Nothing about this hand makes sense, which leads me to believe even more that he is not bluffing because it is unlikely that anyone would believe him.The only hand that you're willing to put him on is a bluff of some sort, but what could that be? He didn't have proper pot odds to draw to anything on the turn, depending on what he put us on. Does he consider pot odds? We don't know.
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We know nothing about this player. You are guessing completely as to what his bet means. If you're going to call, then you are making a guess for your tournament life.Does his bet not give you pause and think, "hmm, maybe I wasn't winning this hand after all."The only hand that you're willing to put him on is a bluff of some sort, but what could that be? He didn't have proper pot odds to draw to anything on the turn, depending on what he put us on. Does he consider pot odds? We don't know.
That's poker...you "guess" based on experience...you don't know anything about him so, until proven otherwise, you have to assume he's an average/typical player.Could he be ignorant of pot odds? Maybe.Could he be calculating implied odds? Maybe.Could he just be a flush chaser? Maybe.Could he be calling to represent a flush draw, even if he isn't on it, intending to bet it? Maybe.If he thinks you're weak, he could be looking to:a. hit his drawb. see the board hit a four-straight to bluff at itc. see the 3rd spade to bluff at itd. calling to bluff the river no matter what comesSometimes you gotta trust your reads and go with your gut...and, simply, you never learn if you never screw up.I simply go back to typical play...and of all the hands that beat you on the turn, a typical player doesn't check/call with those hands.And if he's being tricky to go with your trickiness, so be it.I go back to it being really important in determining what he thinks you have.If he thinks we're weak - and he has every reason to think that - then HIS range of hands increases drastically, including a whole lot of bluffing material.
It's also bad to make bluffs that don't make sense. People get curious as to what you're doing, and you get called, which is bad when you're bluffing. Nothing about this hand makes sense, which leads me to believe even more that he is not bluffing because it is unlikely that anyone would believe him.
People do it all the time...they make a bet that doesn't fit with the rest of the hand....sometimes they get caught, usually they don't. Also, typically, a person is more likely to get away with their first bluff...people don't start looking them up until the 2nd or 3rd allin.I said it before and I'll say it again..I generally advocate caution, or waiting for him to bluff again..I generally advocate a bad fold being better than a bad call...and I generally advocate the ability to fold tptk...in fact, I probably fold it TOO often....my gut, here, says we're ahead, and I have to trust it.
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I would 100% call. You sold the idea you didnt have much and it doesnt make sense to convince your opponent you are weak when you are strong then fold to a bet from him.On the turn, there are a lot of draws. If anyone had 2-pair or better it would be very unusual to check and call because any dimond, 5,6,10,J is an action killer.Its more likely he missed some sort of draw and decided to bluff on the river because you showed weakness.

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I would 100% call. You sold the idea you didnt have much and it doesnt make sense to convince your opponent you are weak when you are strong then fold to a bet from him.
You can sell whatever you want about your hand. You've got a real hand, but it doesn't look that way. He's selling that he's weak too, and you're buying it.Making this point is retarded unless we know that we're good in the hand. Just becuase we decided to look weak doesn't mean anything about HIS hand, only how he views ours.
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Making this point is retarded unless we know that we're good in the hand. Just becuase we decided to look weak doesn't mean anything about HIS hand, only how he views ours.
And how he views our hand will determine how he bets the river, based on his hand...if he views us as weak, he's not gonna push with the nuts, he's gonna make a more reasonable bet, but he will bluff if he's got air...if he views us as strong, he's not gonna bluff, but he will push the nuts.
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The question is simple, without knowing ANYTHING about the player, what would you do? It is level five of a $10,000 buy in tournament.
At the very least, we know that 6-10 hours into the tournament he only has 35-75% of his starting chips (depending on WHAT 10k tournament of course) and considering the sloppiness of the question, and the non-sloppiness of previous questions, I think the answer is supposed to be either "we can't possibly know NOTHING" or "we need more information to answer the question"I'm still wondering what was goofy about the 1k bet into the 1.9k pot on the turn though...
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I call. You can't play the hand like that if you're going to fold to a weird bet at the end. Look at it from his perspective, you decide to raise pf then check behind when the ace comes. To him, you've probably have some sort of draw or a high pair like QQ. You show weakness again by making a goofy bet that he calls. He could be easily floating you or he could have a draw. the river card was a blank, that card prob didn't help him, and if he did check the straight on the turn (unlikely) why would he bet so much? Typically a set raises somewhere here.I call the river bet, to him, you have a mediocre holding and he can force you off of it.

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At the very least, we know that 6-10 hours into the tournament he only has 35-75% of his starting chips (depending on WHAT 10k tournament of course) and considering the sloppiness of the question, and the non-sloppiness of previous questions, I think the answer is supposed to be either "we can't possibly know NOTHING" or "we need more information to answer the question"I'm still wondering what was goofy about the 1k bet into the 1.9k pot on the turn though...
There are several reasons you can know "nothing" about your opponent:1. you've only been at the table for a few hands...or this is your first hand here2. he's only been at the table for a few hands/few minutes3. you simply haven't been paying attentionThe bet is goofy because it's a half-pot bet that doesn't make much sense in relation to a pf raise and a flop check (in position)...along with two spades and three consecutive cards on the board the last thing it will do is scare off any draws.It looks exactly like someone who is weak trying to steal the pot, possibly on a semi-bluff. It's not a bet you make if you think you're ahead and want to protect from draws.
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I call. You can't play the hand like that if you're going to fold to a weird bet at the end.
Why? I just want you to explain why just because we played the hand weirdly, we HAVE TO call his bet on the end?I'd want more information other than "well, we played this hand goofy and he's supposed to try and take it away, so I'm not going to let him."
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These quizzes are getting interesting...Assuming he plays reasonably well, a set makes no sense, and the only 2-pair that makes any sense is A3 (and I doubt A3 would push on this river; he'd probably either check/call or make a smaller bet). Since he's going to have a hard time putting us on a hand (we opened in late position and checked behind on the flop; we could have almost anything), he can't just call on that scary board on the turn when there's so many ways we could be semibluffing. 65 also would probably do more than check/call the turn.So in my view, the only hand we need to be afraid of is JT, which a reasonable opponent could play in this manner, particularly if he views our flop check as a sign of strength. (By not raising the turn, he can save money if the board pairs on the river, and he can make a smaller value bet if a flush or straight card comes, and he can push on a blank river to make it look like a bluff).However, without knowing our opponent, he could have so many busted draws here. He could be reading our mid-sized turn bet as a sign of weakness.Since the only hands I can see beating us are JT and (much less likely) A3, I think we need to call here. There are way too many worse hands that could have played the flop and turn as he did for us to assume the worst.

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