Wpt Mirage Showdown **update Thread**

[GrinderMJ 0]

You said "I think it's fair to say that anytime he sticks any chips in this spot utg with his stack, he has a big hand."and then "so his opponents could easily read a shove as a weaker hand"His opponents could also read it as a scared kid who doesnt want to bubble trying to get in and see a flop with KQs AJs or 77. He's doubling, or at least getting it in good here agaisnt Chip w/ a limp, which is kind of results oriented because you don't know what hands are out there but I think he geting it all in preflop alot more than you think here with a limp.

Also, I'm not saying his opponents could view a shove as a LEGITIMATE weak hand. By weak hand I meant something like (1010-qq/ak) Am I way off in assuming that when Hoosier puts chips in the pot here he's strong or do you agree with me?

[GrinderMJ 0]

This spot is a shove if you have x ray glasses and see QQ out there. It's a limp or raise any other time.

Is live so much different from online that when a guy with an m of 6 shoves utg that it's only profitable to call with QQ+ ? I can't possibly see how this is case, especially on the bubble.

[JesseW316 0]

Also, I'm not saying his opponents could view a shove as a LEGITIMATE weak hand. By weak hand I meant something like (1010-qq/ak) Am I way off in assuming that when Hoosier puts chips in the pot here he's strong or do you agree with me?

I think you two just had different definitions of weak and strong. According to you, strong is only AA and KK, weak here is TT-QQ and AK. Personally I feel AK and QQ should be included in strong, and TT and JJ could be classified as minimums.Yes, I think we can all agree that he doesn't have less than TT with a shove here. I wouldn't think it would be anything else, but once again we are totally unaware of table images and the aggressiveness of the table around the bubble.

[GrinderMJ 0]

I think you two just had different definitions of weak and strong. According to you, strong is only AA and KK, weak here is TT-QQ and AK. Personally I feel AK and QQ should be included in strong, and TT and JJ could be classified as minimums.Yes, I think we can all agree that he doesn't have less than TT with a shove here. I wouldn't think it would be anything else, but once again we are totally unaware of table images and the aggressiveness of the table around the bubble.

Yes, you are correct in how I was defining hand strength. Ty.

[GrinderMJ 0]

Also, this discussion is really really interesting, and I'm really curious for Hoosier to come in and define his table image a little better and what his thoughts are of all the possibilities.

[JesseW316 0]

Also, this discussion is really really interesting, and I'm really curious for Hoosier to come in and define his table image a little better and what his thoughts are of all the possibilities.

Agreed, I love hand discussion. I was just in my kitchen re-heating leftover Chinese and still thinking about all the different possibilities and couldn't wait to come back and see who replied.

[simo_8ball 0]

This spot is a shove if you have x ray glasses and see QQ out there. It's a limp or raise any other time.

Actually, if you knew someone had QQ the l/rr would be better. Just saying.I agree with much of what GrinderMJ has said in this thread, and I would have no real problem shoving preflop. I don't think it is the best option though.The preflop shove repesents AK very, very strongly, and far more so than AA/KK/QQ. As a result, I do think that a hand like AQ will fold. It is highly unlikely that he is moving in here without a hand at least in the range of TT+/AQ+, although he could well get a call from a weaker pair reading him to AK. Drop our stack size even just a small amount and I think this becomes a very sensible option. We need to be able to represent desperation and a hand like 99 or even *ahem* AJ (eww), and we aren't quite short enough to do that currently IMO.Limping preflop is a double edged sword. You open up the raising ranges of players behind you, but a limp/shove will be correctly read to immense strength, so will probably only be called by at best QQ+/AK. Having said that, you get the chance to trap a large amount of dead money in the pot if someone raises and there is (possibly) a caller or two. The greatest worry from limping is that it can create a cascade effect, and you could see a multiway limped pot where you have no idea where anyone is on the flop. I could see this as a realistic (and dangerous) possibility.Making a standard raise preflop likely represents a hand somewhere in the range of 99+/AQ+, but will encourage callers preflop with more marginal holdings. I think that given his stack size, this is probably the best option.

[GrinderMJ 0]

Agreed, I love hand discussion. I was just in my kitchen re-heating leftover Chinese and still thinking about all the different possibilities and couldn't wait to come back and see who replied.

Ya, it's pretty cool. I can certainly follow Looshle's logic(that Hoosier could be a satellite donk trying to limp Kq/77 etc) for why a limp could be a sick play and I'll be interested to see if Hoosier thinks his image would let him get away with a limp in this spot. Although, nobody seems to agree with it, I also believe that this same logic could make a shove good as a shove could be read as Hoosier shoving a weaker (but still reasonably strong) hand trying to take down the pot and not get outdrawn and bubble.

[JesseW316 0]

I really think that all of us are correct at the same time. However, this is with us assuming all things are equal (strength of table/aggressiveness of table/our image/others' images/closeness to bubble/avg stack size).With that in our way, Grinders argument for a preflop push is very good. My argument for the std. raise pre is equally good, and looshles argument for the creative limp/reraise is also good. The problem is that all things definitely are not equal. So many different things are playing a hand in this for Hoosier that we are totally uninformed on.For example, and this is totally a hypothetical...our decision will be affected IMMENSELY when the situation changes like this...Hoos' stack=6.5MAvg. stack in tourney=8M100 people left, 95 get paid, we're in 50th place.ORHoos' stack=6.5MAvg. stack in tourney=20M100 people left, 95 get paid, we're in 96th place.Our goals/considerations for this hand are totally different and would obviously change each of our arguments greatly. Since we have to assume that we are in the middle on every one of the conditions I think my preflop standard raise is best, but is not too far ahead of the other two choices.I think if Hoosier decided on the standard raise, there must have been a reason making that play better than the shove and the limp, as I'm sure he considered all three equally. I think that maybe Steve is so confident in his opinion bc he might have some kind of information about this hand/the table/a specific player in the hand that he does not want to share with the public and is therefore the reason he PM'ed it.

[steve7stud 0]

I also would like to hear Steve's thoughts once again on why he likes a shove, hopefully we'll hear them.I agree that we have no idea what the table was like/what Hoos's image is/what he'd been doing previous to this. Obv that will play a big role in the decision.

A lot of people don't realize how difficult it is to go deep or win a large tourney. So my hat is off to Hoosier for getting to where he did. Clearly he made good decisions, or at least decisions that worked for him along the way. I'm a firm believer that people should play from their perspective. I don't like the idea of Dan Harrington giving a guideline for others to follow. If everyone is reading from the same book, it leaves little room for creativity imo. I do understand that his books have helped a lot of people, and I think that's great. But I will not be discussing "m", ""q", or "z" in my rational.Here is how I would have played the hand. Again, these are just my thoughts. Nothing more, nothing less.With KK pre flop I raise 3-4 BB. I like Hoosiers raise, however I raise a bit more there. I have found that if you raise just a bit more, you get less callers. I never shove with the amount of chips that he had. I would only limp if I KNEW that someone in late position was abusing the bubble and was going to raise for me, that way I could shove on him pre flop after he raised. Having said all of this, I like the raise pre flop. Now we have callers. Not a great thing for any hand really. Unless we hit our hand perfect, we are essentially first to act. This presents many problems as were clearly illustrated from the results. In addition to having callers, the table itself was fairly tough. So that presents more of a dilemna. Flopping a set would be great, but that didn't happen. Without the presence of an Ace, I move in on just about all flops.My reasoning for doing so is this. I started with the second best hand in poker. I am perfectly happy to win what is in the pot right there. I don't want to have to deal with a raise and re-rase, only to find out that I often have the best hand. I have found that one of the great keys to winning pots in no limit tourneys is to put your opponents to the test. It obviously takes all of the pressure off of you. If you get your money in post flop behind, then so be it. But in this case, Hoosier happened to be a small favorite.That is how I would have played the hand. I encourage everyone to play hands differently. This is just the way I see it.Good Luck.

[msals11 0]

haven't read any other posts other than a few to realize what was being discussed... my personal feelings is that jon played the KK correctly. Shoving preflop is not a good idea IMO because I don't believe he had open shoved too many times previously from the way it sounds so they know he isn't going to do this utg light. limping is much better than shoving imo because w/ aggro players behind him, if one or two more behind him limp it is very possible that someone will make a play @ the pot preflop, and if not, you just have to play the hand carefully based on flop texture. i like the 11k raise the best though, just unlucky that you took the flop 4 handed. if you take out the results, the 11k utg expecting to go heads up or 3 ways is the best decision IMO and will be the most profitable long-term

[looshle 6]

A lot of people don't realize how difficult it is to go deep or win a large tourney. So my hat is off to Hoosier for getting to where he did. Clearly he made good decisions, or at least decisions that worked for him along the way. I'm a firm believer that people should play from their perspective. I don't like the idea of Dan Harrington giving a guideline for others to follow. If everyone is reading from the same book, it leaves little room for creativity imo. I do understand that his books have helped a lot of people, and I think that's great. But I will not be discussing "m", ""q", or "z" in my rational.Here is how I would have played the hand. Again, these are just my thoughts. Nothing more, nothing less.With KK pre flop I raise 3-4 BB. I like Hoosiers raise, however I raise a bit more there. I have found that if you raise just a bit more, you get less callers. I never shove with the amount of chips that he had. I would only limp if I KNEW that someone in late position was abusing the bubble and was going to raise for me, that way I could shove on him pre flop after he raised. Having said all of this, I like the raise pre flop. Now we have callers. Not a great thing for any hand really. Unless we hit our hand perfect, we are essentially first to act. This presents many problems as were clearly illustrated from the results. In addition to having callers, the table itself was fairly tough. So that presents more of a dilemna. Flopping a set would be great, but that didn't happen. Without the presence of an Ace, I move in on just about all flops.My reasoning for doing so is this. I started with the second best hand in poker. I am perfectly happy to win what is in the pot right there. I don't want to have to deal with a raise and re-rase, only to find out that I often have the best hand. I have found that one of the great keys to winning pots in no limit tourneys is to put your opponents to the test. It obviously takes all of the pressure off of you. If you get your money in post flop behind, then so be it. But in this case, Hoosier happened to be a small favorite.That is how I would have played the hand. I encourage everyone to play hands differently. This is just the way I see it.Good Luck.

Ok first all, this is def not a flop you should be open shoving into 4 or 5 other players. This is an action flop so there's going to bet a bet if you check. If theres a bet and a raise, it's up to your reading skills and gives you an extra chance to make the right decision. It sounds to me Steve like you are looking at this at an opportunity to make a WRONG decision, but to be a top level player you need to be able to make some tough decisions. You're never getting a better hand to fold on the flop so its not "putting your opponent to the test" It's more like just asking them a yes or no question. It's gambling that no one hit the flop hard enough to put them in the lead. Did you hit 2 pair or a set? Yes or no?Even if your reading skills are HORRIBLE and can't get away from this hand no matter what, you should still be check-raising/check-calling all in because it gives you the chance to go up a worse hand. Tournament play isn't about getting the pressure off of you, it's about making correct deicsions. Personally, I don't mind having the "pressure" on me becuase it means it's up to me to make the correct decision and use my reading ability (which I think is prob the best part of my game) If you are afraid of making the wrong decision when the pressures on you, you shouldn't be playing 10k events IMO. It's comparable to overshoving AK preflop. If someone wakes up with KK or AA, people just say "that's poker" A lot of people hate playing AK postflop because they aren't good postflop players, but sometimes its better to smoothcall with AK and force yourself to make tougher decisions.

[steve7stud 0]

Ok first all, this is def not a flop you should be open shoving into 4 or 5 other players. This is an action flop so there's going to bet a bet if you check. If theres a bet and a raise, it's up to your reading skills and gives you an extra chance to make the right decision. It sounds to me Steve like you are looking at this at an opportunity to make a WRONG decision, but to be a top level player you need to be able to make some tough decisions. You're never getting a better hand to fold on the flop so its not "putting your opponent to the test" It's more like just asking them a yes or no question. It's gambling that no one hit the flop hard enough to put them in the lead. Did you hit 2 pair or a set? Yes or no?Even if your reading skills are HORRIBLE and can't get away from this hand no matter what, you should still be check-raising/check-calling all in because it gives you the chance to go up a worse hand. Tournament play isn't about getting the pressure off of you, it's about making correct deicsions. Personally, I don't mind having the "pressure" on me becuase it means it's up to me to make the correct decision and use my reading ability (which I think is prob the best part of my game) If you are afraid of making the wrong decision when the pressures on you, you shouldn't be playing 10k events IMO. It's comparable to overshoving AK preflop. If someone wakes up with KK or AA, people just say "that's poker" A lot of people hate playing AK postflop because they aren't good postflop players, but sometimes its better to smoothcall with AK and force yourself to make tougher decisions.

Well, I consider reading skills to be one of my best skills as a player. But I think you are missing the point. By checking, you are inviting everyone to get involved in the pot. And with the amount of chips that Hoosier had, there is not much he could do to protect his hand after other people went to war. Just because other people went to war, does not mean they had the best hand. However, you CERTAINLY don't want two people drawing against you. If I move all in, I don't mind getting called by one person like Chip or Amnnon. I would rather win it right there. But if I check, I will often come to the wrong conclusion. I think you are underestimating a lot of plays that people make. But again, I don't think there is a right or wrong way to play the hand. As for playing 10k events myself, I will only play the main event at the WSOP, and all the mix game events. I'll let you no limit gurus take down all the other ones.

[looshle 6]

Well, I consider reading skills to be one of my best skills as a player. But I think you are missing the point. By checking, you are inviting everyone to get involved in the pot. And with the amount of chips that Hoosier had, there is not much he could do to protect his hand after other people went to war. Just because other people went to war, does not mean they had the best hand. However, you CERTAINLY don't want two people drawing against you. If I move all in, I don't mind getting called by one person like Chip or Amnnon. I would rather win it right there. But if I check, I will often come to the wrong conclusion. I think you are underestimating a lot of plays that people make. But again, I don't think there is a right or wrong way to play the hand. As for playing 10k events myself, I will only play the main event at the WSOP, and all the mix game events. I'll let you no limit gurus take down all the other ones.

lol as many times i said "you" or "your reading skills" it was players in general.

[steve7stud 0]

lol as many times i said "you" or "your reading skills" it was players in general.

In all seriousness. I think "you" guys who came from online and are now doing well in live tourneys are on the right track for sure. Most guys your age have endurance and fearlessness which are great for no limit tourneys. This is why I'm not playing the 1500 events against you wiz kids.

[looshle 6]

In all seriousness. I think "you" guys who came from online and are now doing well in live tourneys are on the right track for sure. Most guys your age have endurance and fearlessness which are great for no limit tourneys. This is why I'm not playing the 1500 events against you whiz kids.

FYP obv. guess you're right

[PrtyPSux 0]

I havent read the thread, but this is my opinion on the hand.If the flop was AJ10 I'd check, J52 I check, QxJd9d I check....with 3 people behind you in such a huge spot for your tournament life, you're making a HUGE mistake by open shipping it imo...2 pr a set a str8 or AQ aren't folding, and they're always betting the flop so you might as well c/r and get it all in that way...if there is a bet and a raise, I think you can muck most of the time unless you know the players and/or sense weakness from both.... At the very best you're up vs 12-16 outs or so. When there is a raise a reraise and an all in, I think you HAVE to fold 100% of the time, regardless. I think players like DN, JC Tran, and Nam Le check there all the time. Shipping all in might work once in a while, but it's not +EV in tourneys hardly ever imo, you're just putting your tourney life at stake with no clue about the other player's hands.

[steve7stud 0]

I havent read the thread, but this is my opinion on the hand.If the flop was AJ10 I'd check, J52 I check, QxJd9d I check....with 3 people behind you in such a huge spot for your tournament life, you're making a HUGE mistake by open shipping it imo...2 pr a set a str8 or AQ aren't folding, and they're always betting the flop so you might as well c/r and get it all in that way...if there is a bet and a raise, I think you can muck most of the time unless you know the players and/or sense weakness from both.... At the very best you're up vs 12-16 outs or so. When there is a raise a reraise and an all in, I think you HAVE to fold 100% of the time, regardless. I think players like DN, JC Tran, and Nam Le check there all the time. Shipping all in might work once in a while, but it's not +EV in tourneys hardly ever imo, you're just putting your tourney life at stake with no clue about the other player's hands.

I agreed with what you said until you started mentioning players that I've never heard of.There is also a key difference between Hoosier and the guys you mentioned. People at the the table know who they are. So they will play accordingly.Just remember that when I move all in from utg post flop, that means I have kings next time.

[mk 11]

definitely an interesting spot pre and post flop.correct way to play it pre is obviously dependent on 1) table's perception of jon and 2) jon's perception of how active everyone behind him will be if he limps/std raises/shoves. none of us can really make any judgements on that front. i trust that he made the right decision preflop (i'm assuming he hadn't been very active and had probably not moved his whole stack in preflop yet), and i agree 100% with the flop action.i also agree with grinder that a shove preflop needs to be considered due to 3rd level thinking. if you're another player at the table, you basically expect someone with jon's stack to limp with a hand as big as KK, and you'd probably never give him credit for shoving KK preflop in that spot. i think there's a good chance he'd get looked up by [77+, AJ+].

[benhoug 0]

I like limping here. This is a great opportunity to double up against pros who don't know jon and would assume that he's afraid of bubbling which is what limping puts into their minds. Sure theyre going to think he could be doing it with a monster but I'm almost 100% positive Reese raises and is committed to calling Jons all in. Someone's gotta pick up AK or QQ to call, maybe jacks.

I'm totally on board w/ looshle here, and think limping is the best option, with a raise like Hoosier made coming in 2nd. Open-shoving here seems like a very distant 3rd. Hoosier has a monster here and I think the only way he's getting all-in p/f is w/ a limp-re-raise.

[ratwastard 0]

http://www.cardplayer.com/tv/24802amnon filippi discusses the hand in the 2nd half of this video

[loxo 0]

Only thing I'd ask guys is if this was a $100+9 online tourny how would this hand go down? When I say ask I mean really, how would you guys, Hoos, loosh, pps, s7s ect play this hand? I totally understand that it's a different situation and realise how tough a spot it is in the original hand but would love to hear if anyone changes their mind in this spot.Thx.

[FoxwoodsPro 0]

Obvious Check-Fold on the flop with that action like many have said.I would of played the hand slightly different and I think it would of solved a lot of problems that arose on the flop.Your UTG with KK 2k-4k blinds with a stack of 65kI think the proper raise on the bubble with that M and 8-9 players to act after me is to raise not to 11k but to 15k Less people, clearly the 7k was not nearly enough as it gets cold called by 7 10 soooooooted I'm not being results oriented, I just personally dont care for smallish raises especially in this spot.Maybe he was trying to intice a raise, but I just think its -EV to make a less than standard raise on the bubble in a 10k event.I could go into more detail but I'm at work and so consider these cliff notes.

[looshle 6]

Obvious Check-Fold on the flop with that action like many have said.I would of played the hand slightly different and I think it would of solved a lot of problems that arose on the flop.Your UTG with KK 2k-4k blinds with a stack of 65kI think the proper raise on the bubble with that M and 8-9 players to act after me is to raise not to 11k but to 15k Less people, clearly the 7k was not nearly enough as it gets cold called by 7 10 soooooooted I'm not being results oriented, I just personally dont care for smallish raises especially in this spot.Maybe he was trying to intice a raise, but I just think its -EV to make a less than standard raise on the bubble in a 10k event.I could go into more detail but I'm at work and so consider these cliff notes.

I like shoving preflop more than raising to 15k. 4X? who opens for 4X utg? Who opens for 4x anywhere on the table for that matter? If i'm raising here it's 11 MAX most likely 10-10.5.

[cubsfan44 0]

If a utg limp looks weak here how does an over shove preflop not look weak too? I dont play 10k buying tournies but in my little donkish tournies id read that limp as a much bigger hand then the shove here. Couldnt hoosier's shove be perceived as a satelite donk/scared kid who does not want to see a flop with a midpair or AJ etc etc? So looshle,JC in this tourney acting after hoosier what is your calling range for an utg shove here? As grinder said is a 10k buy in really that much different then an online tourney that its only a +ev call with QQ+?Also is it safe to say that a player like Chip Reese would be more then happy to race with hoosier here? As the bubble cant mean crap to him and he's got to be looking at spots to accumalate chips to go deep here. I guess what im asking is. If chip holds AQ and he puts hoosier on JJ does he call?