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Wpt Mirage Showdown **update Thread**


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Ok I actually haven't read this thread too much, I just went back and read Hoos's post about the A8 and the KK hand and have now jumped here.Standard with the A8 I believe, gg ul etc.I also like the check on the flop with the KK with plans on pushing over the top of a single bet if the rest fold. Obv a bet is going to do nothing but get you in trouble here, and pushing preflop would be silly. Open-pushing the flop has some argument though and I'd also love to hear what Steve is thinking on it. Personally I think I'm checking that flop as Hoos did.

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I wasn't going to comment. But I did laugh out loud at the thought of open shoving pre flop with the second best hand in hold em. Kind of defeats the purpose of playing no?
Am I high? Hoosier has 65k at 2/4 with some ante (I dunno how big the ante is). If the ante is the standard 2000/4000/200 that puts the pot preflop at roughly 8k preflop leaving hoosier with an m of 8ish. He could easily represent a much worse hand shoving preflop. It's not as awful as you guys are pretending. It's in between and I generally standard raise here, but Hoosier isnt' deep enough that shoving is too bad imo.
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Am I high? Hoosier has 65k at 2/4 with some ante (I dunno how big the ante is). If the ante is the standard 2000/4000/200 that puts the pot preflop at roughly 8k preflop leaving hoosier with an m of 8ish. He could easily represent a much worse hand shoving preflop. It's not as awful as you guys are pretending. It's in between and I generally standard raise here, but Hoosier isnt' deep enough that shoving is too bad imo.
If he had shoved here would chip call? just asking
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If he had shoved here would chip call? just asking
I dunno. What is a good player's range shoving with an m of 8ish utg+1 on the bubble. I think with the dynamic of him being reasonably unknown to the other players (I think) I could easily see his bet looking weak/scared of bubbling and getting looked up 1010+ Ako/Aks.
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I dunno. What is a good player's range shoving with an m of 8ish utg+1 on the bubble. I think with the dynamic of him being reasonably unknown to the other players (I think) I could easily see his bet looking weak/scared of bubbling and getting looked up 1010+ Ako/Aks.
per hoosier chip had AQ. Dont know how many chips he had though
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If he had shoved here would chip call? just asking
I asked Chip, he said no. :club:<--- wants to get shytfaced after getting raped by a 4 outter for 1st place chips late in a mtt and finishing out of the money
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Apparently standard ante for 2k 4k is 400 or 500? If so, that puts the pot at 10kish preflop and Hoosier with an m of 6.5ish. Shoving is not horrible by any stretch of the imagination.
So with that I would assume AQ has to be added to the previous calling range? I think im on the shoving band wagon here.edit* I see bkice lurking. any thoughts?
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So with that I would assume AQ has to be added to the previous calling range? I think im on the shoving band wagon here.edit* I see bkice lurking. any thoughts?
I'm not 100% sure on the shove bandwagon i think it's sometimes shove sometimes raise. I'm more on the shoving isn't bad based on the information we have.
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Shipping MP is alot better than shoving UTG which is def not the best play.
alright im confused. Im no where near on the level to be arguing with anyone in this thread but at an M of 6.5 isnt it just shove or fold mode? Does the being on the bubble factor in on this decision at all? please explain loosh.
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I dunno. What is a good player's range shoving with an m of 8ish utg+1 on the bubble. I think with the dynamic of him being reasonably unknown to the other players (I think) I could easily see his bet looking weak/scared of bubbling and getting looked up 1010+ Ako/Aks.
Wasn't sure what you were saying, are you saying that you would think Hoos's range with a preflop push would be TT+ and Ako/AKs? If that's the case, Chip wouldn't be calling with AQ knowing that he is in trouble against everything but TT and JJ and would more likely be behind QQ, KK, AA, and AK.
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Shipping MP is alot better than shoving UTG which is def not the best play.
Here are my thoughts. Disclaimer: I have never played a big live tourney. I have no idea of other relevant stacks. I have no idea what Hoosier's image was. I have no idea of how aggro this table playing on the bubble. I'm not even sure what the ante was.No matter what he does, Hoosier's hand is going to look very strong. Assuming I have the blind/antes right, Hoosier has an m of like 6-8. I think it's fair to say that anytime he sticks any chips in this spot utg with his stack, he has a big hand. I have played with/watched Hoosier a decent amount and I can't ever see him limping a medium pair or weakish hand trying to get through the rest of the table. I feel like any time he would limp this stack utg, it would be for the purpose of getting somebody to abuse the bubble behind. Again, I could be wrong about this. I also feel like his opponents could pick up on this pretty easily and I can't really see anybody falling for a limp/rr ai at this point.I personally think I prefer a standard raise, I think he might make this range with a slightly wider range, in the pursuit of repping a biggish hand and trying to steal a pot before having to go into fold/shove mode. I think his raise was probably the optimal play as it was probably able to make his range a little wider in the eyes of his opponents. Onto shoving. I think with this stack, Hoosier isn't playing to cash. I feel like he would be shoveling in mp/lp with weaker hands a fair amounts trying to accumulate chips and stay ahead of the blinds. Again, I don't know this for a fact, and this is key in the issue imo. If he has been shoving a fair amount, I really like a shove for both deception, and the possibility that he can show this hand and pick up respect on his shoves later. Not to mention the fact that he is unknown, so his opponents could easily read a shove as a weaker hand 1010/jj/Aqs/Ak trying to make sure that they don't lose the pot and bubble. I think this is extremely plausible in this situation. In the end I think no matter what his hand looks pretty strong so I think straight value raise is his best play. I think I just really hated the idea that a shove was a terrible play.EDIT: It felt disrespectful, but I doubt Steve meant it that way. Seems like a nice guy.
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Wasn't sure what you were saying, are you saying that you would think Hoos's range with a preflop push would be TT+ and Ako/AKs? If that's the case, Chip wouldn't be calling with AQ knowing that he is in trouble against everything but TT and JJ and would more likely be behind QQ, KK, AA, and AK.
I didn't try to define Hoosier's range for a shove utg with that stack because I don't know how he's been playing his stack. I'm saying his hand could be perceived as weaker and get called by the range I outlined
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alright im confused. Im no where near on the level to be arguing with anyone in this thread but at an M of 6.5 isnt it just shove or fold mode? Does the being on the bubble factor in on this at all? please explain loosh.
I like limping here. Even though he's only got 15bbs, he's still UTG and is unlikely to be called by AQ or a mid pair like 99. I like limping here the most, it looks like you're scared of the bubble and you have enough chips to fold if someone makes a move at you. I'm pretty sure he doubled through Reese if he limps here but standard raising isn't bad either. I don't like shipping at all because this is your shot to double up. Even though you pick up the blinds and antes, it's gone the 2 hands when you pay the blinds.This is a great opportunity to double up against pros who don't know jon and would assume that he's afraid of bubbling which is what limping puts into their minds. Sure theyre going to think he could be doing it with a monster but I'm almost 100% positive Reese raises and is committed to calling Jons all in. Someone's gotta pick up AK or QQ to call, maybe jacks.
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I also would like to hear Steve's thoughts once again on why he likes a shove, hopefully we'll hear them.I agree that we have no idea what the table was like/what Hoos's image is/what he'd been doing previous to this. Obv that will play a big role in the decision.

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Here are my thoughts. Disclaimer: I have never played a big live tourney. I have no idea of other relevant stacks. I have no idea what Hoosier's image was. I have no idea of how aggro this table playing on the bubble. I'm not even sure what the ante was.No matter what he does, Hoosier's hand is going to look very strong. Assuming I have the blind/antes right, Hoosier has an m of like 6-8. I think it's fair to say that anytime he sticks any chips in this spot utg with his stack, he has a big hand. I have played with/watched Hoosier a decent amount and I can't ever see him limping a medium pair or weakish hand trying to get through the rest of the table. I feel like any time he would limp this stack utg, it would be for the purpose of getting somebody to abuse the bubble behind. Again, I could be wrong about this. I also feel like his opponents could pick up on this pretty easily and I can't really see anybody falling for a limp/rr ai at this point.I personally think I prefer a standard raise, I think he might make this range with a slightly wider range, in the pursuit of repping a biggish hand and trying to steal a pot before having to go into fold/shove mode. I think his raise was probably the optimal play as it was probably able to make his range a little wider in the eyes of his opponents. Onto shoving. I think with this stack, Hoosier isn't playing to cash. I feel like he would be shoveling in mp/lp with weaker hands a fair amounts trying to accumulate chips and stay ahead of the blinds. Again, I don't know this for a fact, and this is key in the issue imo. If he has been shoving a fair amount, I really like a shove for both deception, and the possibility that he can show this hand and pick up respect on his shoves later. Not to mention the fact that he is unknown, so his opponents could easily read a shove as a weaker hand 1010/jj/Aqs/Ak trying to make sure that they don't lose the pot and bubble. I think this is extremely plausible in this situation. In the end I think no matter what his hand looks pretty strong so I think straight value raise is his best play. I think I just really hated steve7s tone in his post, especially because in my eyes a shove is perfectly reasonable.
you completely contradict yourself bro
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you completely contradict yourself bro
No, by weaker hand I meant something like 1010/JJ/QQ/Ako/Aks. And I still believe that no matter what nobody at the table will think this could be worse than 1010 or Aqs.
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I also would like to hear Steve's thoughts once again on why he likes a shove, hopefully we'll hear them.I agree that we have no idea what the table was like/what Hoos's image is/what he'd been doing previous to this. Obv that will play a big role in the decision.
I think you and I are on different pages. Steve is advocating a flop shove. I am discussing the merit of shoving preflop. I am in the check/shove to one bet camp for the flop.
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I didn't try to define Hoosier's range for a shove utg with that stack because I don't know how he's been playing his stack. I'm saying his hand could be perceived as weaker and get called by the range I outlined
Ok so the range was your calling range from the players, not Hoos's shoving range. All cleared up and I take back what I said about Reese not calling if that's Hoos's range bc that post is now irrelevant.Without knowing any images/etc. I don't like pushing bc like I think looshle said it greatly reduces the chance that you double up. An open push from UTG looks very strong to me. Had his M been 3 or something horrid like that ya, the push will have a wide range. With his stack at that point I think it looks super strong and I definitely don't think Chip is calling unless Chip just had an ungodly stack which I don't think he did.Hoos did say that the button ended up with either two pair or a set on the flop, so I guess it's possible he woke up with QQ or JJ. An UTG push would almost certainly get called by the QQ and possibly by the JJ. I doubt he had QQ though as Chip had AQ, and with the amount of time Hoos said the button took, JJ and 99 sound much more likely.
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You said "I think it's fair to say that anytime he sticks any chips in this spot utg with his stack, he has a big hand."and then "so his opponents could easily read a shove as a weaker hand"His opponents could also read it as a scared kid who doesnt want to bubble trying to get in and see a flop with KQs AJs or 77. He's doubling, or at least getting it in good here agaisnt Chip w/ a limp, which is kind of results oriented because you don't know what hands are out there but I think he geting it all in preflop alot more than you think here with a limp.

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You said "I think it's fair to say that anytime he sticks any chips in this spot utg with his stack, he has a big hand."and then "so his opponents could easily read a shove as a weaker hand"His opponents could also read it as a scared kid who doesnt want to bubble trying to get in and see a flop with KQs AJs or 77. He's doubling, or at least getting it in good here agaisnt Chip w/ a limp, which is kind of results oriented because you don't know what hands are out there but I think he geting it all in preflop alot more than you think here with a limp.
Certainly possible. I consider you a better player than me and have much more live/big buy in event experience than most. If you feel that with Hoosier's image he could pull off a limp and not give away his hand than you may be right, and I may be way off. As long as we can agree on the idea that this spot is sometimes a shove, I'm happy :club:
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Certainly possible. I consider you a better player than me and have much more live/big buy in event experience than most. If you feel that with Hoosier's image he could pull off a limp and not give away his hand than you may be right, and I may be way off. As long as we can agree on the idea that this spot is sometimes a shove, I'm happy :club:
This spot is a shove if you have x ray glasses and see QQ out there. It's a limp or raise any other time.
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I think you and I are on different pages. Steve is advocating a flop shove. I am discussing the merit of shoving preflop. I am in the check/shove to one bet camp for the flop.
Ok, I had a brain fart I guess bc I was temporarily thinking Steve was also advocating the push preflop. I would like to hear Steve's thoughts on the open shove on the flop, but I guess that action is for a different discussion as we're talking preflop right now.I am also in the check/shove camp on the flop, but I'm in the standard raise pre camp and I think the open shove prelop is the third best option behind standard raise and limping. Limping is interesting and will get his money in pre almost certainly (although we have to remember that the button possibly could have had QQ or JJ and would probably come with Chip on the raise). Hindsight is 20/20 on the limp, though, so I prefer the std. raise.
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