Making The Move From 10nl To 25nl On Stars

[Willing 2 Die 0]

Let me give a little pretext to where i am at currently.About 8-9 months ago, i started to play on Stars again after a hiatus of sorts. I dabbled with tuorneys, did well, and took my $150 roll to the $25 NL tables. I played a very different game back at that time. I did not raise much preflop, and sort just tried to wait around for hands, trap alot with sets or large pairs preflop, etc.I didn't make too much before i decided to try $50 NL (6 max) with a $250 BR. Believe it or not, this style allowed me to hover around the same mark, going up and down between $200- $400, for about the period of a month and a half. I just wasn't making any consistent money. Before i moved to stars, i was playing at CDpoker, and just playing Weak tight some days and attempts at TAG other days, i made consistent money.So, long story short, i eventually went busto playing $50 NL after i ran my BR up to $800 (after having a monster luckbox session) and then going cold, and going on tilt bad.I decided to regroup, read HOH 1 and 2, and start playing SNGS.I started playing Sngs and doing really well. I have a %50 ROI on stars thru 400 games, with my average stake of $4. Every now and then, i would go back to $25NL full ring (as a friend suggested i learn full ring first, and as i stayed the hell away from 50 NL because i was starting to realize my weak tight strategy of playing would not suffice well) and i would try to incorporate the aggressiveness i used in SNGs in the cash games. Well, eventually, i would lose in the cash games at full ring (and my BR would take a huge hit) because i was being over-aggressive and pple were laying traps right and left for me.I decided that my style was more equiped for tournaments and just to try and stick to tournaments as much as i could.Well, i hit a rough patch of variance with the SNGs and tourneys recently, so i tried to go back to cash games at 6 max again to 1) try to rebuild my roll 2) to give cash games one more shot at 6 maxI wasn't looking forward to this because i didnt like playing such low limits. But i had no choice. So, that is where i have been at the last 3 weeks or so, playing $10NL. I've been trying to play aggressive preflop and i make continuation bets when appropriate. Overall, my game is very aggressive at $10 NL, and i realize that I get by with alot at 10NL (not getting re-reaised preflop, pple slowplay way too much, etc) because its the nature of the beast, pple are very cheap at 10NL it seems, and the ones that decide to play back at you or call you really have no clue how good their hand is, etc.So right now, i have $400 in my account. I've played approximitely 20-30k hands during this stretch. Ideally, i would like to bring my account up to $600-$700 before i move up to $25NL. I realize that this might be waiting to long to move up, but i feel that i might need some time/money to adjust my level of pre and post flop aggression and CB's. And here's why. I tried to play one table of $25NL each of my last two sessions and i ran bad. I lost 2.5 full buy ins over that stretch, i had a couple of coolers during that stretch (flush vs. boat, KK v. AA, AA cracked) but i also felt there were times were my opponents just weren't going anywhere with their mid pairs and gutshots even after making signicant bets on the flop and turn. Again, i realize that i cant just be super aggressive at 25NL like i was at 10 NL and i realize i cant CB everything and take it down %80 of the time like i was in 10NL. So my question is, what are the areas that i need to tighten up with the most? Do i need to switch from LAG to a more TAG ish style at 25NL, that way my pf rereraises and CB's and double barrels will get more respect?Also, I dont have the program that shows your opponents three numbers (such as VPIP, or the other two, i'm ashamed to admit i dont even know what they are) Do i need to invest in this now, and does it really make that much of a difference when mulitabling these cash tables? Thanks for all input provided. I just want to get better thats all. I realize that i have so much more to learn, and i realize they are things that i might still be doing wrong, but hopefully you guys can point me in the right direction.

[linkwood 0]

Let me give a little pretext to where i am at currently.About 8-9 months ago, i started to play on Stars again after a hiatus of sorts. I dabbled with tuorneys, did well, and took my $150 roll to the $25 NL tables. I played a very different game back at that time. I did not raise much preflop, and sort just tried to wait around for hands, trap alot with sets or large pairs preflop, etc.I didn't make too much before i decided to try $50 NL (6 max) with a $250 BR. Believe it or not, this style allowed me to hover around the same mark, going up and down between $200- $400, for about the period of a month and a half. I just wasn't making any consistent money. Before i moved to stars, i was playing at CDpoker, and just playing Weak tight some days and attempts at TAG other days, i made consistent money.So, long story short, i eventually went busto playing $50 NL after i ran my BR up to $800 (after having a monster luckbox session) and then going cold, and going on tilt bad.I decided to regroup, read HOH 1 and 2, and start playing SNGS.I started playing Sngs and doing really well. I have a %50 ROI on stars thru 400 games, with my average stake of $4. Every now and then, i would go back to $25NL full ring (as a friend suggested i learn full ring first, and as i stayed the hell away from 50 NL because i was starting to realize my weak tight strategy of playing would not suffice well) and i would try to incorporate the aggressiveness i used in SNGs in the cash games. Well, eventually, i would lose in the cash games at full ring (and my BR would take a huge hit) because i was being over-aggressive and pple were laying traps right and left for me.I decided that my style was more equiped for tournaments and just to try and stick to tournaments as much as i could.Well, i hit a rough patch of variance with the SNGs and tourneys recently, so i tried to go back to cash games at 6 max again to 1) try to rebuild my roll 2) to give cash games one more shot at 6 maxI wasn't looking forward to this because i didnt like playing such low limits. But i had no choice. So, that is where i have been at the last 3 weeks or so, playing $10NL. I've been trying to play aggressive preflop and i make continuation bets when appropriate. Overall, my game is very aggressive at $10 NL, and i realize that I get by with alot at 10NL (not getting re-reaised preflop, pple slowplay way too much, etc) because its the nature of the beast, pple are very cheap at 10NL it seems, and the ones that decide to play back at you or call you really have no clue how good their hand is, etc.So right now, i have $400 in my account. I've played approximitely 20-30k hands during this stretch. Ideally, i would like to bring my account up to $600-$700 before i move up to $25NL. I realize that this might be waiting to long to move up, but i feel that i might need some time/money to adjust my level of pre and post flop aggression and CB's. And here's why. I tried to play one table of $25NL each of my last two sessions and i ran bad. I lost 2.5 full buy ins over that stretch, i had a couple of coolers during that stretch (flush vs. boat, KK v. AA, AA cracked) but i also felt there were times were my opponents just weren't going anywhere with their mid pairs and gutshots even after making signicant bets on the flop and turn. Again, i realize that i cant just be super aggressive at 25NL like i was at 10 NL and i realize i cant CB everything and take it down %80 of the time like i was in 10NL. So my question is, what are the areas that i need to tighten up with the most? Do i need to switch from LAG to a more TAG ish style at 25NL, that way my pf rereraises and CB's and double barrels will get more respect?Also, I dont have the program that shows your opponents three numbers (such as VPIP, or the other two, i'm ashamed to admit i dont even know what they are) Do i need to invest in this now, and does it really make that much of a difference when mulitabling these cash tables? Thanks for all input provided. I just want to get better thats all. I realize that i have so much more to learn, and i realize they are things that i might still be doing wrong, but hopefully you guys can point me in the right direction.

Its really hard to give specific advice without specific hands/situations to point out leaks. I can make a couple of generalizations though. First off, tournament strategy, as you've found, obviously is not a good way to play cash games. In general tournament players don't do well in cash games (see Phil Helmuth). That being said, it doesn't mean you have to play TAG to be successful, although at the lower stakes it is probably the best move. You can be successful by playing LAG-gy at the lower stakes. The key is to remember that in cash games you're not in a rush to win pots and accumulate chips like you are in tournaments. The blinds don't go up, so you can be patient and wait for good situations. From your description you sound like the type who falls into the "i need to win every pot i'm in" crowd (Zach's favorite). I was like this a lot too, but found it was a HUGE leak in my game. I made bluffs in situations that just didn't make sense and couldn't understand why these donkeys were calling me down with such weak garbage, when in truth I was the sucker. I found that the key is to maintain aggressiveness but know when to back down and let your opponents take the pot. You're going to be outplayed sometimes, and that's fine. Just be patient and wait for the good situations to come up and then you'll come out on top. Finally, I would suggest that you get involved in a forum like this one. You'll learn a ton from listening to people and offering your own opinions for others to comment on. Then find some hands that you played that are interesting or you have questions about and post them to see what people think. That's really the best way to learn. So just keep at it and get involved in the forums. Good luck!

[Acid_Knight 2]

Asking for advice on what is a good playing style for you is like asking someone what you should be when you grow up. You are not gonna get a good answer becuase the only person who knows what style will work for you (and what you should be when you grow up) is you. You need to experiment with styles and find what works. You need to learn to change gears at the table and adapt to how everyone else is playing. Just find what works for you and go with it. If style A isn't working, try style B. Your "style" is supposed to be a fluid concept depending on game conditions.

[Willing 2 Die 0]

Ty. Please, keep the reply's coming, it helps.Ok, so what about this program that tracks your opponents play? What does it track specifically, how can i relate this to how i am going to play them, and is it time to get it?

[dms26 3]

I agree with Acid, there is no one way to play winning poker. You have to find a style that best fits you. For me at these limits LAG just didn't work that well, especially when you can play tight and still get paid off by the bad players.But it sounds like you have the dedication to be a winning player. The best thing you can do is post a few hands that you are confused about, you'll get good feedback about those specific situations instead of a general way to play all hands.The program you were asking about is pokertracker, I don't use it but I'm sure it is useful and isn't expensive ($50 or so I think).

[Willing 2 Die 0]

I made bluffs in situations that just didn't make sense and couldn't understand why these donkeys were calling me down with such weak garbage, when in truth I was the sucker. I found that the key is to maintain aggressiveness but know when to back down and let your opponents take the pot. You're going to be outplayed sometimes, and that's fine. Just be patient and wait for the good situations to come up and then you'll come out on top.

What i have found in $10 NL is this: almost 80% of the time you CB into 1 or 2 pple, the will fold, and most of the time if you fire a double barrel pot sized bet on the turn, that will get them to fold at that point. This seems to be different in 25NL. Just like you, i sort of feel entitled to make subsequent bets at almost every pot if its checked to me, and i realize this is going to be -EV in the long run at the higher limits, i need to adjust my play better and put more focus on the opponents i know aren't going to play back at me.

[dms26 3]

Ty. Please, keep the reply's coming, it helps.Ok, so what about this program that tracks your opponents play? What does it track specifically, how can i relate this to how i am going to play them, and is it time to get it?

It will expose a players tendencies. Of course a sample size of 50 hands isn't going to tell you much, but if you play the same players a lot it can give you an idea of how they play. How often they see flops, how often they raise, how aggressive or passive they are, ect.

[rgold79 0]

What i have found in $10 NL is this: almost 80% of the time you CB into 1 or 2 pple, the will fold, and most of the time if you fire a double barrel pot sized bet on the turn, that will get them to fold at that point. This seems to be different in 25NL. Just like you, i sort of feel entitled to make subsequent bets at almost every pot if its checked to me, and i realize this is going to be -EV in the long run at the higher limits, i need to adjust my play better and put more focus on the opponents i know aren't going to play back at me.

One of the reasons that sound bankroll management includes having plenty of buyins for a higher level before moving up to that level is that each level has its own texture and style. Whenever you move up there is going to be a learning curve that involves experimenting and figuring out what works and what doesn't. If you get lucky, the transition goes smoothly and there's no looking back. But when you're well rolled you're better able to handle a rockier entry. Just keep at it and you'll find the winning comes quickly.

[Willing 2 Die 0]

Is it too careful to pack 40 buy ins in your bankroll befroe you move up to the next level, if your game is fairly LAG on occasion?

[Zach6668 513]

Is it too careful to pack 40 buy ins in your bankroll befroe you move up to the next level, if your game is fairly LAG on occasion?

You can never be too careful, tbh.