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i folded ak to a 3x bb raise, comments?


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no play is technically "right" in NLHE
Yes it is. Read TOP and then see if you agree with your statement. One move is always right, it is the move that will maximize your profit. Any other play is incorrect "technically," but I understand what you are trying to say (people play different hands different ways in different situations).
I actually think that in NL no play is objectivley "right" because of different playing styles. Such as some players will raise with 78s because they are good at outplaying people on missed flops - or if they hit they can win big, other tight players will not play this starting hand.Neither will maximise profit objectively, it just depends on the player, the other players, your table image, and so on. I mean, you couldnt give a piece of advice for playing AA in EP that will work in all situations, it depends on alot of other things.
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Great advice Smash! :roll: That is why weak-tight players can only play the .50/1 on party.
And "pokerguy30", as much as you may not like to accept it, Smash does give good advice, and is one of the few posters on here i actually feel i can learn from. Give me all the "ass kissing" abuse you can, but it is fact.
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I dont care what kind of hand he had, like i said i believed i could outplay the field - and i did. That is why the fold is the right move reguradless of any other % he didn't want to risk his chips with a re raise cause he felt the guy would move in and he was a coin flip, so moving on and not playin a huge pot with a drawing hand that can be tricky as hell for the best players in the world when you feel you can out play them is the move and he proved he could by winning it.
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Neither will maximise profit objectively, it just depends on the player, the other players, your table image, and so on. I mean, you couldnt give a piece of advice for playing AA in EP that will work in all situations, it depends on alot of other things.
Yes, but given the player, the other players, the table image of the hero, and so on, there will be a play that is better than all other plays in the long run.
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Simon i didn't know you were related to Phil Hellmuth. Just like him you don't take being a possible 75% statistical favorite because you feel you are so good you can outplay everyone else. However with the chipstacks so small relative to teh blinds how do you plan on outplaying people? You are in a situation with 15 BB left 4 handed that is not a deep chip stack and you cannot wait for the nuts. You need to take your advantage and use it.

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Simon i didn't know you were related to Phil Hellmuth. Just like him you don't take being a possible 75% statistical favorite because you feel you are so good you can outplay everyone else. However with the chipstacks so small relative to teh blinds how do you plan on outplaying people? You are in a situation with 15 BB left 4 handed that is not a deep chip stack and you cannot wait for the nuts. You need to take your advantage and use it.
I brought up the same point, but the OP thinks that he is recalling the chip stacks incorrectly and that they were a little deeper than what he said. ( I'm having a hard time thinking of how he is not at the mercy of the blinds but a short stack who has the capability of crippling his stack is.) If the chip stacks were deeper than I believe that a fold is not an awful play. If the stacks were as small as the earlier post suggested, this is a terrible fold and I think the OP would agree that it would be a horrible move to fold.
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I really think im going insane. This is by far the most rediculous post yet. Just call with the third best hand in poker and hope he doesnt have the AA or KK. Its not even a second guess really. You MIGHT be racing at worst. chances are you have him crushed.

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I really think im going insane. This is by far the most rediculous post yet. Just call with the third best hand in poker and hope he doesnt have the AA or KK. Its not even a second guess really. You MIGHT be racing at worst. chances are you have him crushed.
the point that some people are trying to make is that they don't want to race if they can avoid it which is a legitimate tournament strategy. Also, depending what you put your opponent on, although Ak is the third best hand. JJ, QQ. may still be better in this situation since they are made hands. that will stand up better to any under pair.
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not sayin if this was a good fold or not i just got a take on the whole AK is just a drawing hand. couldnt u make the arguement that so is JJ. in most situations ur drawin for an A K or Q not to show :-) . Thoughts?

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When it's folded around to the SB, almost every hand is playable, and almost every hand goes for a blind steal. I would steal with any hand, especially if I'm short-stacked. I believe that it's rare that you're even a coin flip, almost every time you're a 2:1 favorite. Pushing will take it down more times than not. I see your point that you want to make the money then get aggressive there, but I'm tryiing to build a stack.

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AK is only a 60% favorite against 3-4. There is nothing wrong with avoiding going all-in with in some sitautions. Did the OP make the right play this time? I don't know -- and neither does he! He doesn't remember information that should have been crucial to his decision. Showing the AK is what I take issue with. The OP basically told the rest of the table to feast on his blind.

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not sayin if this was a good fold or not i just got a take on the whole AK is just a drawing hand. couldnt u make the arguement that so is JJ. in most situations ur drawin for an A K or Q not to show :-) . Thoughts?
Yes, if the SB has AKQ in the hole, but if that happens, you should kick the dealer in the balls and leave. The reason JJ is better in this situation than AK is that the SB seems to be on a steal. AK doesn't rate as well against a random hand as JJ.
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Pushing will take it down more times than not. I see your point that you want to make the money then get aggressive there, but I'm tryiing to build a stack.
Which is why this hand depends so heavily on payout structure -- in addition to other unkown factors.If this is a Partypoker STEP 1 tournament, where 1st and 2nd get the same prize then a fold makes a lot more sense. If it's a situation where 1st gets like 80% of the prize pool, then the fold is silly. Really, we just don't have enough info to know what to do here. There's absolutely no question that it's +chipEV to push here, so we need information regarding the strcture of the tournament (payout, other stacks, depth of stacks) to know whether or not pushing is +/- $EV.EDIT: Sorry about posting 3 times in a row. Just kept wanting to respond to new stuff I read.
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Impossible to say without knowing the other chipstacks, really.I'd probably tend to fold too, though, unless I was in 3rd place.
That's why you have a reputation of being weak/tight, smash...I don't know all the specifics of the situation, but you shouldn't be laying down AK to a 3x BB raise with that many chips. Moreover, you should be playing to win, not playing to eek up a couple spots and make a minimal cash.Start thinking in these terms... "What Would Daniel Do?"IMO, Daniel would at least take a flop... He is, after all, the flop master...And he'd be even more likely to move in rather than flat call...He's not gonna lay it down with 15x BB and position!!!P.S. Daniel, if you read this and you think I'm misrepresenting you, please chime in...[/b]
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This raise here is almost allways a small to medium pair.  Overcards will generally push into the BB here looking to pick the blind up without having to see a flop.
That's just not true. That same raise is also equally as likely to be A-rag as it is a small pair. Maybe even more so.Four handed, with everyone folding around to you in the SB, and you look down to see A8o. What do you do? Muck? Be Hoyt Corkins? I hate those two options.
THANK YOU, strategy.
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Impossible to say without knowing the other chipstacks, really.I'd probably tend to fold too, though, unless I was in 3rd place.
That's why you have a reputation of being weak/tight, smash...I don't know all the specifics of the situation, but you shouldn't be laying down AK to a 3x BB raise with that many chips. Moreover, you should be playing to win, not playing to eek up a couple spots and make a minimal cash.Start thinking in these terms... "What Would Daniel Do?"IMO, Daniel would at least take a flop... He is, after all, the flop master...And he'd be even more likely to move in rather than flat call...He's not gonna lay it down with 15x BB and position!!!P.S. Daniel, if you read this and you think I'm misrepresenting you, please chime in...[/b]
haha wowwwww, doesn't this much brown nosing almost seem degrading??anyway, why don't people understand where smash an all them are comin from?? You do have 2 very high cards obviously, but thats all they are, meaning basically you have to catch...when your gunna completely miss the flop 70% of the time... why risk ANY chips (calling) let alone a raise when you pretty much know your behind already if your CORRECTLY putting your opponent on a pocket pair.If he does indeed have a pair... this is only a "50/50" if you go all-in...In essence if your just calling or doubling his bet its a 70/30 in his favor seeing as you'd fold when you miss it.Why put pressure on your stack on pre-flop situations?? Personally, I like making "big" decisions during the board. obviously. Huge pre-flop moves are irrational unless your shortstacked.
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always thinking you're ahead with "big" hands like AK is very novice and doesn't show much discipline at all. Our OP made a very mature move, which probably remains unrecognized to more amateur players like ppl other than the OP, Smash, myself an others.If ya can't fold big hands pre-flop, your not a mature poker player. Having that bias that your hand is always best always leads to losing. sorry.

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You won the tournament so no matter what it was the right move in my eyes.
Not quite sure I agree with that statement. 4-handed with ultra high blinds at the end, it comes down to the cards and not the players quite often.Congratulations on winning the tournament! This is a tough decision. I'm willing to bet you're a favorite here; I think with his stack and that raise, AQ, KQ, etc., aren't out of the question. The problem is, even if he's pushing with the beer hand, you're essentially risking a tournament on a 3-1, a situation no one likes. I think way too many of yall are looking at the pot odds here, they're almost meaningless with the blinds that high and the top 2 being paid off. Their only real use it to tell you if your opponent is pot committed. The thing that nags me is that 15x the big blind thing. Like was mentioned before, outplaying is pretty much irrelevant at this point. As much as I hate to say it, I think you have to push. You're at the point where a gamble is going to be necessary for your survival, your odds are as good as they'll get here. Few hands will see flops here, and you're unlucky to get an over vs. underpair situation with only 15 BB left; thus, your percentages are probably best here. At worst, you're 50-50, which is the best you can hope for.
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I don't know all the specifics of the situation, but you shouldn't be laying down AK to a 3x BB raise with that many chips.  Moreover, you should be playing to win, not playing to eek up a couple spots and make a minimal cash.[/b]
This is often extremely wrong. It depends largely on the payout structure. In huge multi-table tournaments, the prize pool grows exponentially, and going for the win is optimal. In the typical SnG, the prize pool dictates playing for 3rd, then after you cash playing for 1st, pretty much ignoring second.
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original post is full of inherent contradictionsyou felt you could "outplay" your opponents when the blinds were high enough that it was a simple push or fold game?you said you won the tournament with "no risk" by going all in preflop with 7 or 8 high a bunch of times and buying blinds?but you folded the 3rd best hand in holdem to a 3xBB raise?sounds to me like you got lucky.folding AK here is about as weaktight as it gets.showing is even worse.i mentioned in my previous post that i would raise your blind with any two cards after i saw you fold that.frankly im shocked by the people like blackchipper who are talking in a condescending tone about people "not understanding" how good the fold was.it was a horrible fold

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Why put pressure on your stack on pre-flop situations?? Personally, I like making "big" decisions during the board. obviously.  Huge pre-flop moves are irrational unless your shortstacked.
I think Harrington mentions this in his book...do your gambling postflop if you can. More information available to you.
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