i folded ak to a 3x bb raise, comments?

[SapphireTiger 0]

What was the prize distrobution? If it was 40/60 or 30/70, then you probably made the correct decision. If it was 20/80 or 15/85, then you botched the hand something fierce.If you do decide to push, don't just push, call and then push. If you push outright, he'll be getting >2-1 on his call and will be stuck calling. If you wait until the flop to push, he might fold a hand he otherwise would have called with. Unless this is low stakes. If it's low stakes, your opponent may not understand pot odds and might think "he caught me stealing" and muck his J10 or whatever.As far as overplaying AK too much? Yes, AK is only a 60% favorite against a random hand, but so many people overplay AJ and AQ at low stakes that AK ends up crushing your opponents a decent amount of the time.One more thing... you said your fold caused some ruckus at the table? Why in god's name did you show this??? "Hey guys, I'll fold AK and anything worse than it in the big blind. Enjoy the buffet!!"

uh if you're folding AK 4-handed you SHOULD show it. it sends a message to the table in whcih you can take advantage.

[Swift_Psycho 1]

What was the prize distrobution? If it was 40/60 or 30/70, then you probably made the correct decision. If it was 20/80 or 15/85, then you botched the hand something fierce.If you do decide to push, don't just push, call and then push. If you push outright, he'll be getting >2-1 on his call and will be stuck calling. If you wait until the flop to push, he might fold a hand he otherwise would have called with. Unless this is low stakes. If it's low stakes, your opponent may not understand pot odds and might think "he caught me stealing" and muck his J10 or whatever.As far as overplaying AK too much? Yes, AK is only a 60% favorite against a random hand, but so many people overplay AJ and AQ at low stakes that AK ends up crushing your opponents a decent amount of the time.One more thing... you said your fold caused some ruckus at the table? Why in god's name did you show this??? "Hey guys, I'll fold AK and anything worse than it in the big blind. Enjoy the buffet!!"

uh if you're folding AK 4-handed you SHOULD show it. it sends a message to the table in whcih you can take advantage.

Not if the table is filled with players that aren't that good. Then you just make them suspicious and they'll wonder what is going on and why you'd fold such a "monster" hand. Showing it is stupid. They likely won't get any "message" you are trying to send and it causes "controversy" as the OP said it did.Edit: I should also add, what message do you think you are going to send if these guys do actually interpret a message from the face up laydown? "I'm going to fold a monster hand every time you raise me?" They don't understand that A-K is a drawing hand. It's just bad to show this hand.

[l0wryder 0]

I would have played the AK because the flop was obviously going to come AAK.My idea of an agreeable person is a person who agrees with me.- Benjamin Franklin

[ddoggphx 0]

And I agree with the smaller pair being likely there. 3xbb raise would probably signify that from a good player. I might have layed the AK down, or called it. It would have really just depended on my read of the other player, but laying it down is a legit play. And by showing it, you are getting future value from it as well, as the OP noted. Your re-raises now really indicate strength.

Why exactly is a small pair more likely than AJ, KQ. Also why does the 3xbb signify a small pair? 3xBB is a fairly standard raise.

I'm meaning it is most likely not an AA, KK or QQ you are up against with the hypothetical JJ. 4-5xbb would be what I'd look for with those hands, especially shorthanded. Of course, anywhere between 3-5xbb would be a standard raise as well, but shorthanded I've found people tend to push for more money with their big hands. I like my JJ against the AJ, KQ, etc. as well. I'm really only scared of three hands, and at that point I'd think JJ is likely good with a small raise.

[SapphireTiger 0]

What was the prize distrobution? If it was 40/60 or 30/70, then you probably made the correct decision. If it was 20/80 or 15/85, then you botched the hand something fierce.If you do decide to push, don't just push, call and then push. If you push outright, he'll be getting >2-1 on his call and will be stuck calling. If you wait until the flop to push, he might fold a hand he otherwise would have called with. Unless this is low stakes. If it's low stakes, your opponent may not understand pot odds and might think "he caught me stealing" and muck his J10 or whatever.As far as overplaying AK too much? Yes, AK is only a 60% favorite against a random hand, but so many people overplay AJ and AQ at low stakes that AK ends up crushing your opponents a decent amount of the time.One more thing... you said your fold caused some ruckus at the table? Why in god's name did you show this??? "Hey guys, I'll fold AK and anything worse than it in the big blind. Enjoy the buffet!!"

uh if you're folding AK 4-handed you SHOULD show it. it sends a message to the table in whcih you can take advantage.

Not if the table is filled with players that aren't that good. Then you just make them suspicious and they'll wonder what is going on and why you'd fold such a "monster" hand. Showing it is stupid. They likely won't get any "message" you are trying to send and it causes "controversy" as the OP said it did.Edit: I should also add, what message do you think you are going to send if these guys do actually interpret a message from the face up laydown? "I'm going to fold a monster hand every time you raise me?" They don't understand that A-K is a drawing hand. It's just bad to show this hand.

i was under the impression that the OP said that as a result of laying down and showing his AK that he was able to bluff the other guys off their hands with trash and win the tourny.

[GreenLizard 0]

I'm with you. If have a decent stack and feel I can outplay the rest of the table, I would let go of this drawing hand.

[Swift_Psycho 1]

What was the prize distrobution? If it was 40/60 or 30/70, then you probably made the correct decision. If it was 20/80 or 15/85, then you botched the hand something fierce.If you do decide to push, don't just push, call and then push. If you push outright, he'll be getting >2-1 on his call and will be stuck calling. If you wait until the flop to push, he might fold a hand he otherwise would have called with. Unless this is low stakes. If it's low stakes, your opponent may not understand pot odds and might think "he caught me stealing" and muck his J10 or whatever.As far as overplaying AK too much? Yes, AK is only a 60% favorite against a random hand, but so many people overplay AJ and AQ at low stakes that AK ends up crushing your opponents a decent amount of the time.One more thing... you said your fold caused some ruckus at the table? Why in god's name did you show this??? "Hey guys, I'll fold AK and anything worse than it in the big blind. Enjoy the buffet!!"

uh if you're folding AK 4-handed you SHOULD show it. it sends a message to the table in whcih you can take advantage.

Not if the table is filled with players that aren't that good. Then you just make them suspicious and they'll wonder what is going on and why you'd fold such a "monster" hand. Showing it is stupid. They likely won't get any "message" you are trying to send and it causes "controversy" as the OP said it did.Edit: I should also add, what message do you think you are going to send if these guys do actually interpret a message from the face up laydown? "I'm going to fold a monster hand every time you raise me?" They don't understand that A-K is a drawing hand. It's just bad to show this hand.

i was under the impression that the OP said that as a result of laying down and showing his AK that he was able to bluff the other guys off their hands with trash and win the tourny.

That's true, missed that. I guess his opponents weren't quite as clueless as I initially thought. They did get some kind of message I suppose.

[flyingmoose 0]

i was under the impression that the OP said that as a result of laying down and showing his AK that he was able to bluff the other guys off their hands with trash and win the tourny.

Given the stack sizes, I assume by "Bluff the other guys off their hands with trash" you mean "Steal blinds." I agree that in this stage of the tournament avoiding confrontation and stealing blinds is often the best course of action -- but showing that his big blind is open to the highest bidder won't help with this. The dude had 15 BBs, so flops were gone and the game was regressing to blind stealing. The best image for this stage in a tournament is someone who will call from the BB with anything and raise with only premium hands. He defeated half this image by showing. For every "walk" (folded to your big blind) you get, you need to steal the blinds one less time to maintain your stack. If his opponents know what they're doing, they're thinking "Yum yum!" the second they see him fold this, and his blind will be under constant attack. This means he has more pressure on him to steal other people's blinds to make up for the difference. EDIT: I want to note that early in tournaments, w hen the stacks are deep I do agree with showing.

[Socrates 0]

Socrates wrote: Didn't read the whole thread, but folding AK to a 3x raise is about as weak tight of a move you can make in poker. Well, try actually reading the thread and you will maybe understand some of my thinking behind it. Splinter Cell.

My apologies, I went back and read some other peoples posts. It was an even more WEAK tight play than I originally thought. 4 handed folding AK to a 3X raise in the BB when only the SB rasied you? If you're going to fold the 4th best starting hand with money already in the pot what are you waiting for in the next several hands, Just AA?

[lies 0]

If i saw someone with a mid stack fold AK to an obvious SB steal, I'd go all in EVERY SINGLE BIG BLIND YOU HAD.Find the people that are weaktight and only play premium hands to a blind steal (once the blinds mean something) and prey on them.Thats how you do it.You need to pad your stack over and over with the blinds and work yourself into a bigstack. Once you are in that position, you can use those chips to take the blinds that the mid stacks need to survive.The obvious move here is reraise all in.The SB is playing positionally. Hes not playing his cards. And if he is, you are in fine shape anyway.Showing that fold was even worse, because if the other players had any idea what they are doing they would be leaning on your blind every orbit.

[Socrates 0]

After the table had seen me lay down AK to that raise ( i was sure to show it) it worked well to my advantage stealing the rest of the game

So you're telling us that they believed any time you entered a pot after this you had tohave AA, KK or QQ? You got lucky and won. Godd for you. Folding AK in that position is never going to be +EV move in the long run.

[flyingmoose 0]

If i saw someone with a mid stack fold AK to an obvious SB steal, I'd go all in EVERY SINGLE BIG BLIND YOU HAD.

That's basically my take on it.I don't think many people understand how shallow the stacks are right now.

[flyingmoose 0]

After the table had seen me lay down AK to that raise ( i was sure to show it) it worked well to my advantage stealing the rest of the game

So you're telling us that they believed any time you entered a pot after this you had tohave AA, KK or QQ? You got lucky and won. Godd for you. Folding AK in that position is never going to be +EV move in the long run.

The fold is never +chip EV, but it could be +$EV, depending on the prize distrobution, the other stacks, how easy it is to steal others' blinds, etc. AK is only a 60% favorite against two napkins here, and if the OP can steal his way into the money, then the fold is optimal.I just don't think showing the fold makes one damn bit of sense from a metagame perspective.

[Raidan 0]

How exactly do u "outplay" your opponents when the blinds are that big relative to the chip sizes. Sure, it can send the notion that your reraises indicate strength but you say the 1500 stack guy wasnt in danger (only 7.5x the bb is almost on the borderline with moving in with any mediocre hands), he wasnt even the shortest stack at the table. Chances are if either of these two raised 3x the bb and u reraised, they are _stupid_ for not calling since they are getting way over 2:1 in _every_ scenario possible. Now, if i saw someone lay down AK in the bb there, my assumption is they are playing for 2nd and often like people on the bubble in MTT 's, I'll be stealing their blinds more often. Sure you canshow that u have a tight image, but if u have that short of a stack (6.5x after u fold that bb), and i raise to 3x the bb, and sb folds and u push in another 3.5x the bb, that i'd be.5x BB (Sb) 6.5x BB (your stack) 3x BB (my raise), 3.5x bb left to call.10x BB are in the pot, im getting almost 3:1 to call, im _ALWAYS_ gonna call in this situation, even if the bb has a tight image.

[SapphireTiger 0]

the OP says that he wasn't clear on exactly how many chips he had and his estimates were probably wrong but he felt that he wasn't at all short stacked in comparison to the blinds.

[srharris22 0]

sorry simon not trying to knock you but...... You back your play with supreme confidence even after asking for others opinions. Typically we only ask for someone else's opinion when we want confirmation of our own decisions.I back this b/c you failed to mention any reads you had on this player, average chip stacks at the time of the play, or for that matter what the other 2 players had? If there were only 6 players in teh tourney then you had 1/2 of the chips and a fold here was probably not that bad of a play. I probably go after the guy but that is me. I don't know if this guy just lost a ton of chips on a bad beat and is on tilt or has been scrambling for a while just to keep his head above water, or has this player been relatively quiet waiting on a solid hand to play?This is what i expect from someone that is making such a 'good' tournament play.

[strategy 4]

.

[flyingmoose 0]

the OP says that he wasn't clear on exactly how many chips he had and his estimates were probably wrong but he felt that he wasn't at all short stacked in comparison to the blinds.

If he was deep, the fold doesn't make sense. If he was shallow, showing the fold doesn't make sense. Take your pick.

[SapphireTiger 0]

the OP says that he wasn't clear on exactly how many chips he had and his estimates were probably wrong but he felt that he wasn't at all short stacked in comparison to the blinds.

If he was deep, the fold doesn't make sense. If he was shallow, showing the fold doesn't make sense. Take your pick.

i can't pick because the OP was horribly unclear in what actually happened to correctly assess the situation

[Scott3705 0]

If i saw someone with a mid stack fold AK to an obvious SB steal, I'd go all in EVERY SINGLE BIG BLIND YOU HAD.Find the people that are weaktight and only play premium hands to a blind steal (once the blinds mean something) and prey on them.Thats how you do it.You need to pad your stack over and over with the blinds and work yourself into a bigstack. Once you are in that position, you can use those chips to take the blinds that the mid stacks need to survive.The obvious move here is reraise all in.The SB is playing positionally. Hes not playing his cards. And if he is, you are in fine shape anyway.Showing that fold was even worse, because if the other players had any idea what they are doing they would be leaning on your blind every orbit.

that's the one problem that i'm having with the "image" arguement here. The blinds are so substantial at this point in the tournament that you're basically subjecting your blinds to a large raise every time. I understand the OP is trying to send a message of being very solid, but to me it just screams weakness more than anything.

[kung fu 0]

If he really had a hand that would threaten a randomn hand, i would expect him to raise more than 3XBB. sure its a race, but a race you are going to win and will set you up nicely.i think you weren't really looking for any comments or suggestions about this play. you were basically just looking for everyone to say what a magnificent player you must be to have the courage to fold AK.nonetheless, you won, so good on you.

[SimonGreen 0]

sorry simon not trying to knock you but...... You back your play with supreme confidence even after asking for others opinions. Typically we only ask for someone else's opinion when we want confirmation of our own decisions.I back this b/c you failed to mention any reads you had on this player, average chip stacks at the time of the play, or for that matter what the other 2 players had? If there were only 6 players in teh tourney then you had 1/2 of the chips and a fold here was probably not that bad of a play. I probably go after the guy but that is me. I don't know if this guy just lost a ton of chips on a bad beat and is on tilt or has been scrambling for a while just to keep his head above water, or has this player been relatively quiet waiting on a solid hand to play?This is what i expect from someone that is making such a 'good' tournament play.

I was asking for comments, not opinions. Also - i am just wondering what other people think about this play - no play is technically "right" in NLHE, lots of people have alot of different ways of going about things - i just thought it would be interesting to hear how others would have played this hand - and their reasons for it.Also, to people talking about how short/deep stacked i was, i really cant remember too well, all i can remember is that folding would leave me with a decent stack (and it was enough to play flops, as i did after this), and calling would leave me with little more than enough to push and pray.Thanks for the comments, it's an interesting read :-)

[SimonGreen 0]

If he really had a hand that would threaten a randomn hand, i would expect him to raise more than 3XBB. sure its a race, but a race you are going to win and will set you up nicely.i think you weren't really looking for any comments or suggestions about this play. you were basically just looking for everyone to say what a magnificent player you must be to have the courage to fold AK.nonetheless, you won, so good on you.

Not really, im sorry but i was under the impression that you could use a poker forum to discuss hand strategies.I dont think this is the 100% correct play, it just was for me in the situation, and seeing as folding AK to a normal sort of raise against one player is uncommon, i thought it may interest some of you.If it doesnt, dont bother replying - i dont want to read it.Thanks Kung ****,Simon.

[Socrates 0]

no play is technically "right" in NLHE

Yes it is. Read TOP and then see if you agree with your statement. One move is always right, it is the move that will maximize your profit. Any other play is incorrect "technically," but I understand what you are trying to say (people play different hands different ways in different situations).

[Guest Anonymous]

Great advice Smash! :roll: That is why weak-tight players can only play the .50/1 on party.