2-5 Nl, Kk Deep Stacked

[Royal_Tour 0]

No. No one ever said he always has JJ/QQ. it's just a very reasonable part of his range. Hero is LAG, and Villain could be putting Hero on a squeeze from the straddle, so there are many hands that villain can be playing here... such asQQ/JJ/TT/99/88/AK/AQ/AJ/AT/other low pairs/an occasional suited connector.With that range, checking the flop is very, very bad. A lot of those hands, he'll never put more money in until he has a pair of kings beaten. therefore, we don't want to allow him to draw cheaply with those. Other hands in that range that might pay us, are most likely to pay us on the flop while...A - our hand can still look a little bluffishB - there isn't much for QQ/JJ/99 to be scared of if theyre not giving us credit for a big pairC - he is drawing to a flush or straight and will pay to draw. we need to charge him for this and take away his odds/implied odds.if we check to him and he checks behind, we now know absolutely nothing and unless the turn is a king that is not a heart, the value of our hand has decreased and the value of our opponent's hand is completely unknown --- he could check behind with a set, with a flush draw, with 88--QQ, AK, etc --- and all the hands we beat can improve to beat us for free or get scared and not pay us on the turn when we bet as they would have on the flop. There. i dont know why you think our posts are devoid of strategy. its yours that are devoid of any kind of rational thought.Also, with a LAG image, i AM betting this almost 100% of the time. if we get raised im probably shoveling since a solid player would raise a LAG with many hands that we are ahead of here if he isn't giving us much credit. (QQ,JJ,99,AT,AK, a flush draw, other pairs, whatever.) if we get called, the turn card determines my action but i cant imagine getting away from this very easily once we have half our stack invested. it's not like checking the flop through makes the turn any easier than betting and getting called. there's a huuuuge difference in stacking off badly with KK and a tight image and nearly unavoidable stackoffs with a LAG image.

(bold section) Because if you lead the flop, and you get raised, why are u simply pushing? do you fold to a raise? or do you put villain on AA,KK,QQ,JJ,TT,99,33,22 (which we're only ahead of 2, and chop 1 out of the range u put villain onP.S. i think its safe to eliminate AK. no solid player plays AK like a moron just because u happen to be LAG.

[Sefaje 0]

(bold section) Because if you lead the flop, and you get raised, why are u simply pushing? do you fold to a raise? or do you put villain on AA,KK,QQ,JJ,TT,99,33,22 (which we're only ahead of 2, and chop 1 out of the range u put villain onP.S. i think its safe to eliminate AK. no solid player plays AK like a moron just because u happen to be LAG.

No. No one ever said he always has JJ/QQ. it's just a very reasonable part of his range. Hero is LAG, and Villain could be putting Hero on a squeeze from the straddle, so there are many hands that villain can be playing here... such asQQ/JJ/TT/99/88/AK/AQ/AJ/AT/other low pairs/an occasional suited connector.With that range, checking the flop is very, very bad. A lot of those hands, he'll never put more money in until he has a pair of kings beaten. therefore, we don't want to allow him to draw cheaply with those. Other hands in that range that might pay us, are most likely to pay us on the flop while...A - our hand can still look a little bluffishB - there isn't much for QQ/JJ/99 to be scared of if theyre not giving us credit for a big pairC - he is drawing to a flush or straight and will pay to draw. we need to charge him for this and take away his odds/implied odds.if we check to him and he checks behind, we now know absolutely nothing and unless the turn is a king that is not a heart, the value of our hand has decreased and the value of our opponent's hand is completely unknown --- he could check behind with a set, with a flush draw, with 88--QQ, AK, etc --- and all the hands we beat can improve to beat us for free or get scared and not pay us on the turn when we bet as they would have on the flop. There. i dont know why you think our posts are devoid of strategy. its yours that are devoid of any kind of rational thought.Also, with a LAG image, i AM betting this almost 100% of the time. if we get raised im probably shoveling since a solid player would raise a LAG with many hands that we are ahead of here if he isn't giving us much credit. (QQ,JJ,99,AT,AK, a flush draw, other pairs, whatever.) if we get called, the turn card determines my action but i cant imagine getting away from this very easily once we have half our stack invested. it's not like checking the flop through makes the turn any easier than betting and getting called. there's a huuuuge difference in stacking off badly with KK and a tight image and nearly unavoidable stackoffs with a LAG image.

[Royal_Tour 0]

U keep saying a solid player would raise LAG with QQ,JJ,etc etc.but go back to preflop.a solid player doesnt bet 25 here and smooth call another 100. here.if the hand went like so:hero straddle, villain raise to 50. back to hero, hero raise to to 175. villain call 125. flop 10,2,3 i say shovel 100%.but it wasnt that way. and its why i take a different line with my kings this time.** please. me personally., Royal_Tour, RT, Poo Poo Mcmuffin, I play this hand differently from the get go. I raise more preflop, and if i do get called at that point, I'm only scared of 10,10. but thats 1 hand over a large range, so i bet.the way Hero played it, i take this approach

[David_Nicoson 1]

P.S. i think its safe to eliminate AK. no solid player plays AK like a moron just because u happen to be LAG.

What do you think the right line is for a villain with AK?

[Royal_Tour 0]

What do you think the right line is for a villain with AK?

I think 100% villain folds to a lead out bet on the flop.if you want to go to my theory.you check, villain (if he is capable of a bluff) might make a bet here, probably around 200. trying to take the pot, but not nvesting too much. in which case you raise. villain folds.or BVillain checks behind. turn comes. only scare card is an A. you put villain on AK maybe?, 3 aces in deck he's a 4:1 dog. Its possible for the A to hit the turn, but i like my odds here.Infact i like these odds way more, than if we lead, and he raises and we hope he has QQ,JJ

[Sefaje 0]

I think 100% villain folds to a lead out bet on the flop.if you want to go to my theory.you check, villain (if he is capable of a bluff) might make a bet here, probably around 200. trying to take the pot, but not nvesting too much. in which case you raise. villain folds.or BVillain checks behind. turn comes. only scare card is an A. you put villain on AK maybe?, 3 aces in deck he's a 4:1 dog. Its possible for the A to hit the turn, but i like my odds here.Infact i like these odds way more, than hoping he has QQ and raises me so i can shove

what's your plan for the turn if it gets checked through? bet? and what if he raises? folding there is pretty weak, so in the end all you did differently was give weaker hands a chance to outdraw you or get scared and not pay you off. i dont think villain will bluff that often with hands he wont call or raise the flop with, especially if he realizes that a tricky LAG player's check means strength almost as often as it does weakness. in fact, id expect villain to be more likely to think we're weak if we keep pounding away. betting puts him in a position where he can make a mistake with a hand we beat.also, the only scare card isn't an ace. you said he's playing low pairs and suited connectors too, right? so any 4,5, or 6 can be bad, any ace, any ten, or any heart. but i think the most important is that a lot of pairs he'll pay us with on the flop won't pay us anymore if a scary turn comes off.

[Royal_Tour 0]

what's your plan for the turn if it gets checked through? bet? and what if he raises? folding there is pretty weak, so in the end all you did differently was give weaker hands a chance to outdraw you or get scared and not pay you off. i dont think villain will bluff that often with hands he wont call or raise the flop with, especially if he realizes that a tricky LAG player's check means strength almost as often as it does weakness. in fact, id expect villain to be more likely to think we're weak if we keep pounding away. betting puts him in a position where he can make a mistake with a hand we beat.also, the only scare card isn't an ace. you said he's playing low pairs and suited connectors too, right? so any 4,5, or 6 can be bad, any ace, any ten, or any heart. but i think the most important is that a lot of pairs he'll pay us with on the flop won't pay us anymore if a scary turn comes off.

we need to change gears, being a LAG player wont pay you off unless u change gears. you're going to get pushed back at vs other LAG's and you're going to tangle with TAG's who only raise u with the goods.And, I'd also ask, from the OP. what he defines as lag? because we might be debating a whole different thing here for no reason.I mean, if he tells me he's been branded as lag cuz he sees lots of flops, and bets strong when he hits? i might have different opinions as if he said he is branded as LAG because everyone at the table is TAG and he's the only one making straddles, and so forth.

[Lavitz 0]

U keep saying a solid player would raise LAG with QQ,JJ,etc etc.but go back to preflop.a solid player doesnt bet 25 here and smooth call another 100. here.if the hand went like so:hero straddle, villain raise to 50. back to hero, hero raise to to 175. villain call 125. flop 10,2,3 i say shovel 100%.but it wasnt that way. and its why i take a different line with my kings this time.** please. me personally., Royal_Tour, RT, Poo Poo Mcmuffin, I play this hand differently from the get go. I raise more preflop, and if i do get called at that point, I'm only scared of 10,10. but thats 1 hand over a large range, so i bet.the way Hero played it, i take this approach

Against a LAG who is likely making a very opportunistic squeeze play (5BB raise, and FOUR callers) I am cold calling AKo here most of the time. The other amount of the time I might 4 bet if villian has been 3 betting liberally. Cold calling with 22-QQ is very plausible as well. Either hit the flop or see a ragged one against a LAG and my PP is looking pretty good most of the time. Unfortunately, villian will hit a set a small percentage of the time but I think you playing with such a small BR has affected your thinking. I'd say were good about 85% of the time here against his range.PS, if we include suited connectors in his range it is horrible to check this flop because we are giving OESD, Flush draws, and hands that caught one of the low cards a chance to catch up.

[Ganador 0]

OK, just to clear the air on this. I am a LAG player. I play 30-40 hours a week live, in the same game, in the same casino. I am winning player. I know how to play deep stack NL holdem, in fact, its my speciality, my tournament play is decent, but my cash game play is pretty damn good. And I know beyond any reason of a doubt, that raising large preflop with KK, and then checking a 10 high flop, is just completely ridiculous, you just don't do it. Enough said, close the damn post already.

[tskillz187 0]

OK, just to clear the air on this. I am a LAG player. I play 30-40 hours a week live, in the same game, in the same casino. I am winning player. I know how to play deep stack NL holdem, in fact, its my speciality, my tournament play is decent, but my cash game play is pretty damn good. And I know beyond any reason of a doubt, that raising large preflop with KK, and then checking a 10 high flop, is just completely ridiculous, you just don't do it. Enough said, close the damn post already.

FWIW he's not a very good tournament player.And he is very LAG he's at the casino I go to in the same game everytime I'm there.Oh, and how did a KK post get this long? BBFIDTS

[Jordan 1]

I really have to say that royal I disgree with the majority of what you have said.However, I understand your point, and I "see" it...but I disagree with your theory, and optimal lines, or whatever.No offense, don't take it personally...I dont think you will..but I just generally disagree with a lot of what you said.I think for this hand, it's usually a push...Especially if OP is viewed as a LAG player by most of the table.Checking the flop is only good if we are planning to crai against another aggressive player that fools around in big pots. Otherwise, you pretty much are going to get all in on this flop most of the time, and have to deal with the results. A lot of hands will raise this flop that you are ahead of...but I do agree that the PF re-raise was way to weak...I guess, you could argue that since he raised you on the flop after you have repped such a big hand, he HAS to have a big hand and thus you can fold...but imo that's just looking for a reason to fold and in the long run your KK will be ahead of the villians range...thus a push is the best play in the long run.bleh- Jordan

[nomadicpro 0]

I agree with pretty much all Jordan said above, skipped 3 pages of flames. If you had a read on him as a solid player then one wouldn't expect a raise from MP with pocket 3s. Not much you can do here expect push, unless the ten was not a heart than I might put A10 of hearts as a possible holding for the guy and called his flop raise and pushed on the turn with no ace or heart. I hate the way villian played this hand here. I don't think raising a possible c-bet with a set is a good idea, flat call and pot commit the guy with his turn bet. Ottherwise AK or a unmade hand folds and you make little money. Shove and take the beat re-buy and let them keep raising MP with baby pairs. You'll win out in the long run. Thats my opinion and nothing more.

[mtdesmoines 3]

Do you play KK/AA for set value only or something?

Last night, I was holding AA and put all my chips in on a Q T 7 7 3 board. I stacked AQ. Just sayin...

[Naismith 0]

I agree with pretty much all Jordan said above, skipped 3 pages of flames. If you had a read on him as a solid player then one wouldn't expect a raise from MP with pocket 3s. Not much you can do here expect push, unless the ten was not a heart than I might put A10 of hearts as a possible holding for the guy and called his flop raise and pushed on the turn with no ace or heart.

I would expect a solid player to show up with a set far more frequently than AT here.I have no problem with the way the villain played this hand. I think if you're not raising your small pairs from various positions, you're not going to get the most value with them.

[David_Nicoson 1]

Oh, and how did a KK post get this long? BBFIDTS

It's easy to have an opinion about a simple situation. The number of responses is inversely proportional to the complexity of the problem.

[Naismith 0]

This thread is hardly about KK, anyways.

[tskillz187 0]

It's easy to have an opinion about a simple situation. The number of responses is inversely proportional to the complexity of the problem.

Good point, but that usually isn't the case on these forums, if someone sees something clear-cut they usually skip over it if the advice given so far has been accurate.The number of responses is only because there was an argument with one person saying it was a bad play to get all in on the flop. It's really a straight forward hand. As soon as we take the lead out of position and get to 3 bet PF the hand is going to play itself, you are not deep enough to play it any other way if an A doesn't peel.I believe it was you that stated this isn't deepstacked anymore once the straddle comes out, building on that, the blinds don't matter, once a bet of $125 gets called pf it doesn't matter what the blinds are because the villain has called off roughly 12% of his stack. There's nothing deep stacked about it and the play is straight forward, anyways, it wasn't a jab at the OP he's one of my better friends and I play poker with him live every weekend.

[Royal_Tour 0]

I would expect a solid player to show up with a set far more frequently than AT here.I have no problem with the way the villain played this hand. I think if you're not raising your small pairs from various positions, you're not going to get the most value with them.

dude, i think we;re the only profitable long term live players, no offence, and none taken from Jordan,but you're in the same boat as me Naismith.Being LAG is not reason enough to put a "solid" branded player on 1 pair here.today, i played AA from UTG for standard raise to 14 in 1/2NL got 1 call. flop was K,5,3 rainbow. I lead out. i get raised. and I knew he was a solid Tight player. and by tight i mean, he won a couple big pots because he waits until he hits monsters and then pushes.So he raises the K high un co-ordinated board.and Yes, I said. Ok. maybe he has AK here. maybe QQ or JJ, but this solid of a player wouldnt raise with any of these.he only raises with a set here.I knew this, yet i thought.... what would the forum do? they would shovel because they would say, villains range is XXXX.. and u can never fold in these situations.. blah blah.but i was wrong, i shoved, he caled. he hit a set.GG me.

[tskillz187 0]

dude, i think we;re the only profitable long term live players, no offence, and none taken from Jordan,

You're so out of your mind it's sick. Your small bankroll is greatly affecting the way you think and you are coming off as very pompous. There are a lot of good players on this forum, to think that you and Naismith are the only ones that are winners is ridiculous.Let's stop putting people on ranges and fold everytime we have an overpair and someone plays back at us. That isn't a good strategy but may be one you need to employ on a short bankroll against tight weak players, you can probably still beat a weak tight 1-2 game that way, so go for it.

[David_Nicoson 1]

dude, i think we;re the only profitable long term live players, no offence, and none taken from Jordan,

That's not true. AINEC.Let's not have a penis measuring contest.

Being LAG is not reason enough to put a "solid" branded player on 1 pair here.

What's your line that gets us away from this hand after the flop? Check/fold the flop? Check/fold the turn? Check/fold the river?

today, i played AA from UTG for standard raise to 14 in 1/2NL got 1 call. flop was K,5,3 rainbow. I lead out. i get raised. and I knew he was a solid Tight player. and by tight i mean, he won a couple big pots because he waits until he hits monsters and then pushes.So he raises the K high un co-ordinated board.and Yes, I said. Ok. maybe he has AK here. maybe QQ or JJ, but this solid of a player wouldnt raise with any of these.he only raises with a set here.I knew this, yet i thought.... what would the forum do? they would shovel because they would say, villains range is XXXX.. and u can never fold in these situations.. blah blah.

This is an entirely different situation. There's only one raise. If you're playing fairly deep, then folding one pair makes sense.

[Ganador 0]

So everytime Royal has an overpair, and a "solid" player raises him, he just mucks it. That MUST be a winning strategy. But when a pot is RE-RAISED preflop, i must automatically put a player on a set, and muck my kings. You know why I didn't, cause hes going to have a set here about 1 out of 10 ten times. And I'm not afraid to gamble with one buyin on the off chance I am wrong once. I didn't want to have to put this into a flame/brag war. But I can lose a buyin cause my bankroll is 15K+ which was all won in the past 3 months since I started playing again after taking about 6 months off due to school. Your stupid 10K challenge, in 25 weeks. Punk, I made 6k in the past 2. Tskillz187 can back all this up cause he has seen me sitting with over 4k on the 2-5 400 max buy in more than twice. And to claim that for one, you are the only winning player on here. I dont care if this post makes me look like an bragging conceited idiot. But I have read jordans posts, and I think just about everything acid knight says is correct. Same with cobaltblue. Didn't you win lilke one WPT seat or something, was that you?? You must be the man then, oh wait, I've played in one of those too. CHECKING THAT FLOP IS JUST THE WRONG PLAY AND ABOUT 15 OTHER GOOD PLAYERS AGREE WITH ME. SO STFU, ADMIT YOU MADE A BAD CHOICE, AND END THE THREAD. EITHER THAT OR YOUR GONNA HAVE TO HAVE ME PUT 2k ONLINE AND WE CAN END YOUR LITTLE CHALLENGE REAL FAST. SEE HOW GOOD OF A HU PLAYER YOU REALLY ARE.

[trystero 0]

When someone breaks out the HU challenge there's nothing's left to be said.

[Sefaje 0]

When someone breaks out the HU challenge there's nothing's left to be said.

rofl QFTroyal tour has made a complete idiot of himself ITT. seriously, he and naismith are the only players on FCP that are +EV in live games though! yeah, the guy who's made like $500 in 3 weeks. not any of us, you know, professionals or anything. ive never met a such a slight winner with such a huge ego.edit: ignore this post, nicoson's was better / less angry than mine.

[Naismith 0]

Just for the record, I'm on the "I think this is a set quite often" side, not the, "none of you are winning players" side.

[Zach6668 513]

This thread really needs to die...