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Check lets you see what kind of bet villain shoves out there. 10,10, 3,3, 2,2 obv wants action. A,X might make a bet to see what you hold, and wil fold to a strong raise.JJ,QQ would probably also do a similar type play.He's already a tight player, he will believe you. I dont like the idea of investing a pot size bet here this deep after that preflop action.only good news is he had air and folds. which he does to a check raise also, or if its checked through he does to a turn bet.
this post makes absolutely no sense.
Check lets you see what kind of bet villain shoves out there. 10,10, 3,3, 2,2 obv wants action. A,X might make a bet to see what you hold, and wil fold to a strong raise.JJ,QQ would probably also do a similar type play.
So you're check/raising when he bets, which pot commits you. How is this any better than just betting out? You're acting like checking will allow you to fold when you're beat, and it wont.
He's already a tight player, he will believe you. I dont like the idea of investing a pot size bet here this deep after that preflop action.only good news is he had air and folds. which he does to a check raise also, or if its checked through he does to a turn bet.
Wrong --- he's a "solid" player, which means he is observant of those around him and plays accordingly. if Hero's image is LAGish, then villain won't just automuck QQ to a flop c-bet here. So there's a LOT of good news other than just collecting the pot on the flop. If the flop checks through, that's a disaster. Villain's range is fairly wide, and almost any turn card can be reasonably scary to us, especially a Q, J, T, or Ace. Also, since our image is LAG, we want to keep our hand looking as "bluffish" as possible. Checking the flop doesn't do that and fails to extract value from lower pairs and flush draws.What it comes down to, i think, is that you think villain is a magical player that will only invest another penny when WE bet when he has TT,33, or 22... and will ALWAYS bet when we're ahead of him if we check to him on the flop. and that just isn't reasonable at all.edit: by the way...SB/BB/Straddle = 1betpreflop raiser = 2betHero's re-raise = 3bet
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(post about villain having 33 and stacking hero)

so Royal is correct, but no one agrees with him. :)Super systems works wonders, until your realize that a lot of people play poker their own way.its up to you to find out who is who.like i said. small raise to 25 and then smooth call should tell you right away he is playing for set value or suited connnectors.and Folks.where i come from, our live NL games are capped after the 3rd raise. so its raise, re-raise re-raise again and its capped. a live straddle is not considered a bet since the straddle will be last to act.
No. NO. results do NOT matter. most of the time people post hands they lost and you know this, stop trying to validate your terrible advice based on the results. saying youre right and everyone else is wrong is something id expect from someone who has no idea what a "range" is and has never read a poker strategy forum before.
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Dear Royal, your above statements make no sesne, you say his raise, then smooth call of the re-raise suggests he has a smaller pair or suited connectors, YET you then suggest I check a not overly dangerous board, which he could easily check behind to draw to a flush, a striaght, (by your standards, 45 is not out of the question) or to hit his set. And if he does bet, I suppose i have to check raise, therefore committing myself, and having the same result as leading out except with LESS information. For the record, with a LAG style of play, when one straddles, gets a raise, and looks down at KK, this is a dream situation. So yes, he could be holding QQ or JJ and think that he is wayyyy ahead here, and hence play them in this manner. Basically i got unlucky that he hit a set, cause otherwise I am winning a very large pot here if he has QQ or JJ like he is supposed to. and the raise to 25 does in no way mean he doesnt have these hands, i play live 30-40 hours a week and see that raise from that hand time and time again.

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I do understand what Royal's saying here. That preflop raise certainly looks more like a pot builder than a big hand. I'm not sure if I play this any differently, but wouldn't you think JJ or QQ would want to raise more than 2.5xstraddle?

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I do understand what Royal's saying here. That preflop raise certainly looks more like a pot builder than a big hand. I'm not sure if I play this any differently, but wouldn't you think JJ or QQ would want to raise more than 2.5xstraddle?
Not if he thinks the villain has been aggressive and will reraise from the straddle. Also, are we sure that he saw it was a straddle. I know that's always a consideration in the live games that I play in.
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Not if he thinks the villain has been aggressive and will reraise from the straddle. Also, are we sure that he saw it was a straddle. I know that's always a consideration in the live games that I play in.
That happens quite frequently in my really bad drug dealer 2/5 game as well.
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I do understand what Royal's saying here. That preflop raise certainly looks more like a pot builder than a big hand. I'm not sure if I play this any differently, but wouldn't you think JJ or QQ would want to raise more than 2.5xstraddle?
What is this obsession with QQ & JJ? There are a ton of different hands that play exactly the same way that we still beat.It's basic 3rd level thinking - what does he think I have.Hero is LAG and re-raising out of a straddle. A competent villain's range is massive.
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What is this obsession with QQ & JJ? There are a ton of different hands that play exactly the same way that we still beat.It's basic 3rd level thinking - what does he think I have.Hero is LAG and re-raising out of a straddle. A competent villain's range is massive.
Well, the only read we have on the guy is that he's fairly solid, not making many moves. I'm sure if the OP had said "I'm sitting across from Gus Hansen", we can make his range much larger. That said, maybe 88 thinking you have AK or AQ? I don't think the range here is huge.
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What is this obsession with QQ & JJ? There are a ton of different hands that play exactly the same way that we still beat.It's basic 3rd level thinking - what does he think I have.Hero is LAG and re-raising out of a straddle. A competent villain's range is massive.
Thank you Kramit. And to answer above, yes he knew it was a straddle, as I had been doing it for the better part of 6 hours. And hammered quite a few of them earlier in the day. He easily could of had complete air with his raise, or something like 10 J or A 10. even 99-44. I basically just wanted to confrim that i didnt do something stupid in this hand to dump a 2K+ pot. In hindsight i should of bumped it a bit more preflop and just shut him down there, cause we were both fairly deepstacked. Thanks for the advice guys, i think you will be hearing from me more often.
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Well, the only read we have on the guy is that he's fairly solid, not making many moves. I'm sure if the OP had said "I'm sitting across from Gus Hansen", we can make his range much larger. That said, maybe 88 thinking you have AK or AQ? I don't think the range here is huge.
Any Ax heart, KQh, any pair, AT, JT, even air will play this way if the villain thinks hero is raising lightEDIT: Sorry Ganador, I've essentially just double-posted you :club:
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Thank you Kramit. And to answer above, yes he knew it was a straddle, as I had been doing it for the better part of 6 hours. And hammered quite a few of them earlier in the day. He easily could of had complete air with his raise, or something like 10 J or A 10. even 99-44. I basically just wanted to confrim that i didnt do something stupid in this hand to dump a 2K+ pot. In hindsight i should of bumped it a bit more preflop and just shut him down there, cause we were both fairly deepstacked. Thanks for the advice guys, i think you will be hearing from me more often.
I don't think anyone here thinks you played the hand stupidly. This isn't a bad board to go broke with KK on.
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This isn't a bad board to go broke with KK on.
Sometimes you must have really misplayed a hand to go broke with KK here. In this situation, considering all of the variables, there's not much that can be done about it.
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this post makes absolutely no sense.So you're check/raising when he bets, which pot commits you. How is this any better than just betting out? You're acting like checking will allow you to fold when you're beat, and it wont.Wrong --- he's a "solid" player, which means he is observant of those around him and plays accordingly. if Hero's image is LAGish, then villain won't just automuck QQ to a flop c-bet here. So there's a LOT of good news other than just collecting the pot on the flop. If the flop checks through, that's a disaster. Villain's range is fairly wide, and almost any turn card can be reasonably scary to us, especially a Q, J, T, or Ace. Also, since our image is LAG, we want to keep our hand looking as "bluffish" as possible. Checking the flop doesn't do that and fails to extract value from lower pairs and flush draws.What it comes down to, i think, is that you think villain is a magical player that will only invest another penny when WE bet when he has TT,33, or 22... and will ALWAYS bet when we're ahead of him if we check to him on the flop. and that just isn't reasonable at all.edit: by the way...SB/BB/Straddle = 1betpreflop raiser = 2betHero's re-raise = 3bet
Wrong.Villain is solid. villain doesnt raise to 25 from a straddle to 10, in a 2-5NL game unless he wants a pot builder for set value etc.. sometimes suited connectors work too.
(post about villain having 33 and stacking hero)No. NO. results do NOT matter. most of the time people post hands they lost and you know this, stop trying to validate your terrible advice based on the results. saying youre right and everyone else is wrong is something id expect from someone who has no idea what a "range" is and has never read a poker strategy forum before.
Wrong. I stated my opinions before the results. To me results do matter because I know I dont put villain on QQ JJ here with such a weird preflop bet. and then smooth call of the raise.
Dear Royal, your above statements make no sesne, you say his raise, then smooth call of the re-raise suggests he has a smaller pair or suited connectors, YET you then suggest I check a not overly dangerous board, which he could easily check behind to draw to a flush, a striaght, (by your standards, 45 is not out of the question) or to hit his set. And if he does bet, I suppose i have to check raise, therefore committing myself, and having the same result as leading out except with LESS information. For the record, with a LAG style of play, when one straddles, gets a raise, and looks down at KK, this is a dream situation. So yes, he could be holding QQ or JJ and think that he is wayyyy ahead here, and hence play them in this manner. Basically i got unlucky that he hit a set, cause otherwise I am winning a very large pot here if he has QQ or JJ like he is supposed to. and the raise to 25 does in no way mean he doesnt have these hands, i play live 30-40 hours a week and see that raise from that hand time and time again.
Dear GanadorYour raise to 125 is weaksauce. I didnt bother to comment on that because i'm playing it now as is. And of course 4,5 is out of his range. I said his range is set value, or a big trap. I'm sure he thought he would get a few callers, look to flop a set or big draw with a juiced up pot. But then you re-raised to 125. theres a fair bit in the pot. ur laggy, he's got position. Why not make a loose call with low pocketsAnd, why would a tight player with QQ or JJ not want to re-raise a LAG player who straddles then raises? If you're really telling us the story on how it went down. My thought wuld be the "solid" player might put you on weak pockets, or A,x in which case QQ comes over the top.
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Sometimes you must have really misplayed a hand to go broke with KK here. In this situation, considering all of the variables, there's not much that can be done about it.
I think the fact that he cant get away from KK here misplayed.If I'm playing deep stacks NL and I go broke with KK just because its a low unconnecting board, I'd have to re-evaluate my game.I really dont like the looks of my KK after the raise. and i especially dont like it if he comes over the top of a check/raise
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I think the fact that he cant get away from KK here misplayed.If I'm playing deep stacks NL and I go broke with KK just because its a low unconnecting board, I'd have to re-evaluate my game.I really dont like the looks of my KK after the raise. and i especially dont like it if he comes over the top of a check/raise
There is no coming over the top of a check/raise then folding for us. A check/raise not only commits you, it puts so much money in the pot that it becomes HORRIBLE to fold. We're not getting away from this and if we do it'd be by doing something like betting half pot and then being able to fold to a reraise which seems like scared poker. Also, a check raise would basically put opponent all in anyways so he can't come over the top with anything significant.I'm going to reinforce that his raise to 25 doesn't mean suited connectors or small PP. A raise to 5BB is low with the straddle but you can't immediately put him on a hand because of it. Also, JJ/QQ play this the same, almost always. If OP's image is LAG then his hand range is even BIGGER here because he could be seeing our 3 bet as a move or correctly putting our 3 betting range as quite large and not necessarily strong.Why even play KK man if you are gonna play it so scared on a completely uncoordinated board such as 1023? Do you play KK/AA for set value only or something?
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There is no coming over the top of a check/raise then folding for us. A check/raise not only commits you, it puts so much money in the pot that it becomes HORRIBLE to fold. We're not getting away from this and if we do it'd be by doing something like betting half pot and then being able to fold to a reraise which seems like scared poker. Also, a check raise would basically put opponent all in anyways so he can't come over the top with anything significant.I'm going to reinforce that his raise to 25 doesn't mean suited connectors or small PP. A raise to 5BB is low with the straddle but you can't immediately put him on a hand because of it. Also, JJ/QQ play this the same, almost always. If OP's image is LAG then his hand range is even BIGGER here because he could be seeing our 3 bet as a move or correctly putting our 3 betting range as quite large and not necessarily strong.Why even play KK man if you are gonna play it so scared on a completely uncoordinated board such as 1023? Do you play KK/AA for set value only or something?
Thats only if villain bets out pot. villain doesnt bet out pot with a set. lets be honest here. if we're trully LAG, we should be firing with any PP here right?So yes, if we do check /raise a pot sized bet, i'm confident to invest. because I do not think our villain would call a check/raise. Why? because if we do check raise, it means villain made a bet when we showed weakness. Which is why i eliminate the set. and lead more to 99,88 or maybe JJAlso, in a live 2-5 game like OP is talking about, YES a raise of 3BB's is horrible for QQ,JJ. And NO. i dont play KK or AA for set value. But I play cash games, much differently than tournaments. I dont always invest my stack with AA or KK just because its a board lower than Q. I'm there for hours without any increasing blinds, or short handed situations.
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1 more thing.I also dont stay at a table with 300BB's for long. It might sound weak, but in my current situation, building a BR and staying fresh for everyhand i'm at the table, i usually leave if i triple or more my buy in.

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Thats only if villain bets out pot. villain doesnt bet out pot with a set. lets be honest here. if we're trully LAG, we should be firing with any PP here right?So yes, if we do check /raise a pot sized bet, i'm confident to invest. because I do not think our villain would call a check/raise. Why? because if we do check raise, it means villain made a bet when we showed weakness. Which is why i eliminate the set. and lead more to 99,88 or maybe JJAlso, in a live 2-5 game like OP is talking about, YES a raise of 3BB's is horrible for QQ,JJ. And NO. i dont play KK or AA for set value. But I play cash games, much differently than tournaments. I dont always invest my stack with AA or KK just because its a board lower than Q. I'm there for hours without any increasing blinds, or short handed situations.
I play cash games primarily and obviously I know not to overvalue overpairs. This situation is one of those cases where I am "overvaluing" it. We just put a LARGE amount of money in preflop which means once again less play postflop. We also got the best flop we could hope for. Basically you're hinting if he bets we check-raise all in because he wouldn't bet a set. I think this is completely wrong but I will entertain it for a minute. What do we do if he checks? Automatically assume he has a monster? If he checks we go to the turn are we supposed to check our overpair again?? That is obviously wrong. Also, if we bet pot on turn and he reraises then do we give him credit for a monster or do we even take into account he is probably doing this because we showed huge weakness on the flop and bet the turn? I think we're getting too close to Fancy Play Syndrome here when the correct way to play the hand is simple.
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Also, in a live 2-5 game like OP is talking about, YES a raise of 3BB's is horrible for QQ,JJ.
I don't think so. I have played several guys who always raise to ~10x from EP with medium pairs but make smaller raises with everything else. They're easily read.
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I don't think so. I have played several guys who always raise to ~10x from EP with medium pairs but make smaller raises with everything else. They're easily read.
But is this the case??And duuudes! please, before you guys continue to hammer your only point of "villain could have QQ or JJ" and "KK has to bet and push this all day everyday". before you guys keep going on the same route, at least do me the favor and answer me this.what hands does villain raise to 25, then smooth call 125 with, but checks the flop if checked too?For my sake, god forbid. but some people have said, villain could check behind or blah blah. but what types of hands is he checking behind after the preflop action and now this board?
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royal, your posts are getting worse and worse.do you think its a coincidence that everyone else here thinks a check is terrible? you said yourself that suited connectors are in his range --- with 2 hearts and a couple connected cards on the flop, a check is bad.and also, you're saying that villain will NOT bet pot with us beat. why do you think that? and why will he ALWAYS bet the flop if we check? he wont. you're wrong. if he has two hearts, he'll probably check behind, which is a disaster for us. if he has an ace, seeing the turn for free is a disaster. if he has a lower pair than us, the turn is a disaster because he's able to catch up and beat us or get scared by a turn and not pay us like he would have on the flop. your reasoning may be correct against a very specific opponent on whom you have a terrific read, but in this case it's absolutely insane.

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Some random points:

  1. This isn't a deep-stacked situation after the straddle is on. It's like any garden variety 5/10.
  2. OP should anticipate this tough situation preflop. Three cards are going to come on every flop, any one of which can make the villain(s) a set. We have to look at least one move ahead.
  3. There's really no plausible line for which the set doesn't get our stack. Even if we check-call all the way, we're calling something like 200 on the flop, 300 on the turn, and 300 on the river. Where can we fold our overpair? Given that, we have to construct a post flop strategy that extracts the most when we're ahead.

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royal, your posts are getting worse and worse.do you think its a coincidence that everyone else here thinks a check is terrible? you said yourself that suited connectors are in his range --- with 2 hearts and a couple connected cards on the flop, a check is bad.and also, you're saying that villain will NOT bet pot with us beat. why do you think that? and why will he ALWAYS bet the flop if we check? he wont. you're wrong. if he has two hearts, he'll probably check behind, which is a disaster for us. if he has an ace, seeing the turn for free is a disaster. if he has a lower pair than us, the turn is a disaster because he's able to catch up and beat us or get scared by a turn and not pay us like he would have on the flop. your reasoning may be correct against a very specific opponent on whom you have a terrific read, but in this case it's absolutely insane.
you guys havent given any sort of strategy to this hand. So far, the majority say. bet / get raised / shove. This is supposed to be the norm?Plus, most of you say i'm stupid for saying small PP or suited connectors. but now ur saying that if he has 2 hearts its a disaster? what happend to his JJ or QQ story?and what about us? we dont know which kings we have, OP didnt say if we have a heart or not.If you agree that we have to lead this flop 100% of the time. what do you do if we get raised? what do u do if we get called?
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Some random points:
  1. This isn't a deep-stacked situation after the straddle is on. It's like any garden variety 5/10.
  2. OP should anticipate this tough situation preflop. Three cards are going to come on every flop, any one of which can make the villain(s) a set. We have to look at least one move ahead.
  3. There's really no plausible line for which the set doesn't get our stack. Even if we check-call all the way, we're calling something like 200 on the flop, 300 on the turn, and 300 on the river. Where can we fold our overpair? Given that, we have to construct a post flop strategy that extracts the most when we're ahead.

thank you.finally someone who wants to talk strategy to making big laydowns on occasions, instead of just ABC shove KK all day down by the bay.Oh and, PS. yes i like your line on a garden variety 5/10 , this really proves on the point of making a larger raise preflop.
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you guys havent given any sort of strategy to this hand. So far, the majority say. bet / get raised / shove. This is supposed to be the norm?Plus, most of you say i'm stupid for saying small PP or suited connectors. but now ur saying that if he has 2 hearts its a disaster? what happend to his JJ or QQ story?and what about us? we dont know which kings we have, OP didnt say if we have a heart or not.If you agree that we have to lead this flop 100% of the time. what do you do if we get raised? what do u do if we get called?
No. No one ever said he always has JJ/QQ. it's just a very reasonable part of his range. Hero is LAG, and Villain could be putting Hero on a squeeze from the straddle, so there are many hands that villain can be playing here... such asQQ/JJ/TT/99/88/AK/AQ/AJ/AT/other low pairs/an occasional suited connector.With that range, checking the flop is very, very bad. A lot of those hands, he'll never put more money in until he has a pair of kings beaten. therefore, we don't want to allow him to draw cheaply with those. Other hands in that range that might pay us, are most likely to pay us on the flop while...A - our hand can still look a little bluffishB - there isn't much for QQ/JJ/99 to be scared of if theyre not giving us credit for a big pairC - he is drawing to a flush or straight and will pay to draw. we need to charge him for this and take away his odds/implied odds.if we check to him and he checks behind, we now know absolutely nothing and unless the turn is a king that is not a heart, the value of our hand has decreased and the value of our opponent's hand is completely unknown --- he could check behind with a set, with a flush draw, with 88--QQ, AK, etc --- and all the hands we beat can improve to beat us for free or get scared and not pay us on the turn when we bet as they would have on the flop. There. i dont know why you think our posts are devoid of strategy. its yours that are devoid of any kind of rational thought.Also, with a LAG image, i AM betting this almost 100% of the time. if we get raised im probably shoveling since a solid player would raise a LAG with many hands that we are ahead of here if he isn't giving us much credit. (QQ,JJ,99,AT,AK, a flush draw, other pairs, whatever.) if we get called, the turn card determines my action but i cant imagine getting away from this very easily once we have half our stack invested. it's not like checking the flop through makes the turn any easier than betting and getting called. there's a huuuuge difference in stacking off badly with KK and a tight image and nearly unavoidable stackoffs with a LAG image.
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