pot odds

[chipinchair 0]

Please do not be fooled by the very limitted number of posts on this website, I am new here -- but have been very successfull playing No-limit No-limit games live and PP limit/tourny/NL games online. My question is when claculating Pot odds, does one consider the entire event. For example, I have A10h and catch 2-hearts on the flop, I am about 35% to catch a flush in TWO cards, however, only about 17% to catch on the turn. Do I call a bet up to 35% of the pot or up to 17% of the pot after the flop. If I call up to 35% of the pot, then obviously the next consideration would only be up to 17% of the pot on the river, correct? I could make an argument either way, just wondering what is most widely accepted.Also, I think the SNL tournys are the fast track to building a BR. In one hour you can win 5xbuy-in for 1st, or as low as 2x buy-in for 3rd. I finish 1st in 15%, 2nd in 20%, 3rd in 40% and get knocked out 25% (mostly on the bubble) -- These numbers are with playing about 60 SNL tournys and 20 limit Tournys. I hardly play a hand before at least 4 people are out and then I move to an ultra-agressive state (since everyone sees I fold 95% of the hands I saw before, I have a solid image to exploit).

[rog 0]

If the call is all-in, you use your combined odds since you wont have another decision to make.If it's not all-in, you use your 1 card odds, but you can inflate the pot (implied odds) to account for the free money you'll get on the river bet if you have a made hand on the turn. Be careful...dont go nuts with implied odds. It's easy to exagerate implied odds when you're tilting.If I'm wrong, someone please correct me but this is my understanding.

[looshle 6]

Please do not be fooled by the very limitted number of posts on this website, I am new here -- but have been very successfull playing No-limit No-limit games live and PP limit/tourny/NL games online. My question is when claculating Pot odds, does one consider the entire event. For example, I have A10h and catch 2-hearts on the flop, I am about 35% to catch a flush in TWO cards, however, only about 17% to catch on the turn. Do I call a bet up to 35% of the pot or up to 17% of the pot after the flop. If I call up to 35% of the pot, then obviously the next consideration would only be up to 17% of the pot on the river, correct? I could make an argument either way, just wondering what is most widely accepted.Also, I think the SNL tournys are the fast track to building a BR. In one hour you can win 5xbuy-in for 1st, or as low as 2x buy-in for 3rd. I finish 1st in 15%, 2nd in 20%, 3rd in 40% and get knocked out 25% (mostly on the bubble) -- These numbers are with playing about 60 SNL tournys and 20 limit Tournys. I hardly play a hand before at least 4 people are out and then I move to an ultra-agressive state (since everyone sees I fold 95% of the hands I saw before, I have a solid image to exploit).

If you flop a flush draw, you can call up to 35%, 2-1 pot odds, because your hand is going to win 35% of the time. It doesn't really matter when the heart comes because right now you are only a 2-1 dog so you can call any bet with 2-1 pot odds. And yes if you miss, you need the 5.5-1 pot odds to call the turn bet.

[rog 0]

If you flop a flush draw, you can call up to 35%, 2-1 pot odds, because your hand is going to win 35% of the time. It doesn't really matter when the heart comes because right now you are only a 2-1 dog so you can call any bet with 2-1 pot odds. And yes if you miss, you need the 5.5-1 pot odds to call the turn bet.

I dont see how that can work out mathematically. I'll give you an example. Let's simplify so we dont have to work with fractions. Let's say you're 2:1 on the flop, and 4:1 on the turn. That's not far off for a flush draw. Let's also assume we are heads up. To be getting 2:1 on the flop bet, he has to bet the pot against you. The pot already had $1 in it, he bets $1, and getting 2:1 you call. Pot now has $3 in it. Let's assume you miss the turn card, and he bet's another $1. That's 1/3 the pot so you are getting 4:1 now and you call it. 2 more dollars into the pot. You've called 2 dollars worth of raises to win 3 dollars , giving you combined pot-odds of 1.5:1. Not something you would have done ahead of time, and certainly if he had bet $2 on the flop, and you were all-in to call it, you would have folded.As I understand it, if you compare your 2-street "to win" odds against your 1-street pot-odds, what looks like an edge will actually lose you money. I struggled with this a few months ago. If anyone has math that debunks my view, please post it.

[Dunce 0]

No math, just my own twisted version of logic.Taking your Heads-Up scenario -Anytime there are only two people in a Pot, the only way the Pot grows is if each of them contributes half the money.I know, the Mafia bookkeepers out there will tell you that each bet is a separate event, but really, any hand is more a string bet scenario. The Total Pot at the end of the hand started out as half your money and half the other guys money.Heads Up, you never get more than even money on any bet.Pot Odds/Implied Odds advocates are mostly hustlers who want you to go broke with the utmost confidence by playing bad propositions where you think you're getting a decent price.The only Odds that really matter are your Hand Odds and your Drawing Odds. What you do with those is entirely a matter of your own good judgement.Dunce

[rog 0]

Thought of a better way to explain it. Every time you are presented with a call/fold situation, you are being offered a chance to buy more cards (hoping to catch). You are being offered a price to buy those cards, and your job is to decide if the price is fair so you can either buy the product or turn it down.Pot odds are your price. Implied odds really, but that's market predicition. What are you buying? If your call puts you all in (or nearly so), you are buying 2 more cards for your bet, so 2:1 is a break-even price. You're getting 2 cards for one bet, so it's okay to pay a little more.If you have a deep stack, then you are only buying one card with your call on the flop. You will have to negotiate a price for the second card later. One card is only worth 4:1 (again ignorning implied odds). If you are paying 2:1 for your turn card, you are being overcharged. More acurately, you are paying for 2 cards but only getting one.I hope this helps. Use 4:1 (or whatever it was) on each street. Use 2:1 if the call puts you all in. Use implied odds (judiciously) if you want to take future action into account.

[Mashchit 0]

I'd broadly agree with Rog's approach.It also depends upon how good a flush draw it is, what the board cards are, what you think your opponent has, whether you think you'll get paid off, and whether it's a tourney or cash game.If you're not drawing to the nuts flush then there is the possibility that you could run into the nuts. If you have overcards to the board then (depending on what you think your opponent might have) then they might be live, so that increases your odds. If you think that your opponent has two pair or trips then some of your flush cards will pair the board and lose you the hand, which obviously worsens your odds. There's also the problem that flushes are rather obvious when they hit - I prefer drawing with open ended straights, because they tend to be more concealed when you hit them and therefore you're more likely to get paid off with them. Finally, in pot limit or no limit tournaments you probably don't want to call 2 pot size bets with only a flush draw, but that depends greatly on your stack size, stage of the tournament, blind size, who you're up against, whether you're trying to create an image to capitalise on later, and so on.Bob Ciaffone talks about this in 'Pot Limit and No Limit Poker': "Let's look at a typical pot limit hold 'em situation where you flop a flush draw. Suppose you hold QcJc and the flop comes Ks8c6c. There is $100 in the pot. Three of you have stayed for the flop. The first player bets $100, the second folds, and it is up to you. What action do you take? Resist the impulse to play. You have a clear fold for several reasons."He then lists the insufficient pot odds (2:1 for a 4+:1 shot), the lack of implied odds (the flush is too obvious), and the fact that you're not drawing to the nuts. He then lists several better hands for that flop:9h7h - a straight draw that will make you money if you hit and a bluffing opportunity if a club hits.Ac2c - nut flush draw and an overcard.KcQc - top pair and a flush drawtc9c - flush draw and a straight draw9c7c - straight flush draw