Aa

[timwakefield 68]

Ricer I have to disagree with a few things:

The more I think about it I just like checking this flop. I know this is gonna get some more "WHAT" and "SERIOUS" remarks as plays like this have in other threads.

I think you may be looking at results here. Out of 4 opponents that I'm facing, how likely is it that somebody has JT? How likely is it that somebody has less than JT, and is drawing very slim? IMO you may like checking this flop because you know I got raised.

I"ve got 3 bucks invested on this flop, which is about as bad as it gets for top set. The only way to make it worse would be to add a flush draw.

I think this is really not at all a bad flop for top set, there's only 1 hand that can beat me and there are no potentially strong draws that can beat me. A flop like 458 is much worse for top set I think. The problem is of course that JT is certainly possible.Thanks for all the input guys :)I'll give results at some point when the discussion dies.

[timwakefield 68]

This hand is the exact example why a good player plays J10s with a raise and a call. Just the raise I think its marginal, but with a call in the middle I play that all day long. I know UTG has one of 5 or 6 hands, he has no clue what I hold.

I agree definitely that in villain's shoes I play JTs there PF, and JTo as well. I disagree with the bolded though, a raise of 3x utg is easily 88+ AJs+ or wider.

[NEtwowilldo 0]

I think JT is much more likely than KK, QQ, AK or AQ.

Idk about that. I guess it's marginal.

[Naismith 0]

Idk about that. I guess it's marginal.

Would you agree that more often than not, KK, QQ and AK are re-raising? Even if you take out AK in his re-raising range, the fact that we know where three of the aces, one of the kings and one of the queens are at make those less likely than JT, no?

[timwakefield 68]

Would you agree that more often than not, KK, QQ and AK are re-raising? Even if you take out AK in his re-raising range, the fact that we know where three of the aces, one of the kings and one of the queens are at make those less likely than JT, no?

So what is your line here? Call and then check/fold unimproved to a big bet on the turn?

[NEtwowilldo 0]

Would you agree that more often than not, KK, QQ and AK are re-raising? Even if you take out AK in his re-raising range, the fact that we know where three of the aces, one of the kings and one of the queens are at make those less likely than JT, no?

I was originally just going to say I disagree, but then I thought about all of that and that's why I changed my mind to marginal.This is still too strong of a hand to fold, or play passively at all IMO.

[Naismith 0]

I was originally just going to say I disagree, but then I thought about all of that and that's why I changed my mind to marginal.This is still too strong of a hand to fold, or play passively at all IMO.

I've gone broke with much worse. I certainly wasn't suggesting we assume we're beat. I was just disagreeing that KK, QQ, AK or AQ are more likely than JT.For the record, I've really enjoyed Ricer's perspective on this.

[mtdesmoines 3]

So what is your line here? Call and then check/fold unimproved to a big bet on the turn?

No, I make the big bet on the flop. If villain has the straight, I have outs.

[Sefaje 0]

The more I think about it I just like checking this flop. I know this is gonna get some more "WHAT" and "SERIOUS" remarks as plays like this have in other threads. Thats just how I play. I don't play big pots with a lot opponents out of position. I"ve got 3 bucks invested on this flop, which is about as bad as it gets for top set. The only way to make it worse would be to add a flush draw. I may or may not call a bet after I check it would depend on player betting, my feel for the table, ect.

some of your points are vaguely approaching validity, but this paragraph... and especially the bolded part, is just god damned ridiculous. and this flop is nowhere close to as bad as it gets for top set. if I'm OP i expect that when I lead this flop, there are MANY MANY MANY hands that are worse than mine that will call or raise. Check/folding AA on an AKQ board is just AWFUL. Even if he has JT 100% of the time. and its absurd to think that this is even possible.also: not trying to be rude if i came across that way. im quite drunk and just watched the tivo of the tigers game today another extra innings loss

[David_Nicoson 1]

What do you call with in villian's spot? Maybe KK or QQ? Well you would have reraised them preflop 90% of the time. So odds are you don't have any of those hands. AK? We know 3 aces are dead so odds of this are slim there as well. KQ? Horrible play to raise, even worse to call off 100bb on that board. J10s? Preflop after a raise and a call, yup that definetly gets played. Raises the flop? You betcha. If we push and get called we're behind more than ahead. The more I think about it I just like checking this flop. I know this is gonna get some more "WHAT" and "SERIOUS" remarks as plays like this have in other threads. Thats just how I play. I don't play big pots with a lot opponents out of position. I"ve got 3 bucks invested on this flop, which is about as bad as it gets for top set.

If we get all-in on the flop, we don't have to play the rest of the hand out of position.

[Zach6668 513]

I still prefer calling the flop, for a few reasons.We're going broke to JT every time anyways.A shove on the flop might fold KQ, or other hands that may have continued betting the turn.By calling the flop, we give him a chance to hang himself, and he puts money in with a worse hand more often than he does when we shove the flop.The rest is the same. I still go broke to JT, I still get the money in. I still get to see both cards to see if I boat up, etc. I just think it gets more money in when we're way ahead.

[CobaltBlue 662]

Ricer, you're giving a random villain way too much credit. They don't really think much about their opponents' cards or position. Random players also don't generally fold two pair or sets. AK/KK/QQ/AQ call us all day here...and maybe even KQ. Should they? Probably not...but they will. Hell...some players will go broke on this flop with AJ.There are eight cards that come on the turn that we're not going to be happy about...either because they make the villain's hand, scare us, or scare the villain.That said, tasting the rainbow, I don't mind a flop push or a turn check-raise-push.

[KentuckySlim 0]

What do you call with in villian's spot? Maybe KK or QQ? Well you would have reraised them preflop 90% of the time. So odds are you don't have any of those hands. AK? We know 3 aces are dead so odds of this are slim there as well. KQ? Horrible play to raise, even worse to call off 100bb on that board. J10s? Preflop after a raise and a call, yup that definetly gets played. Raises the flop? You betcha. If we push and get called we're behind more than ahead. The more I think about it I just like checking this flop. I know this is gonna get some more "WHAT" and "SERIOUS" remarks as plays like this have in other threads. Thats just how I play. I don't play big pots with a lot opponents out of position. I"ve got 3 bucks invested on this flop, which is about as bad as it gets for top set. The only way to make it worse would be to add a flush draw. I may or may not call a bet after I check it would depend on player betting, my feel for the table, ect. That being said, the way it was played I don't think we have enought information to fold, YET. A big bet on the turn, thats enough info to tell me I'm beat.

Maybe in a real tough game, but if you fold the aces in a .50/1.00 game on pstars, you're giving away alot of money.

[Ricer98 0]

some of your points are vaguely approaching validity, but this paragraph... and especially the bolded part, is just god damned ridiculous. and this flop is nowhere close to as bad as it gets for top set. if I'm OP i expect that when I lead this flop, there are MANY MANY MANY hands that are worse than mine that will call or raise. Check/folding AA on an AKQ board is just AWFUL. Even if he has JT 100% of the time. and its absurd to think that this is even possible.also: not trying to be rude if i came across that way. im quite drunk and just watched the tivo of the tigers game today another extra innings loss

Yeah I probably don't check fold, I just didn't really want to go into all the thought of what I would do because so many things could happen with 4 players behind. Saying I would check the flop has nothing to do with the fact that the hero was raised on this actual hand. I just don't really want to build the pot out of position because in my mind I don't see how I get a call by worse hands. Granted my level of thinking is probably way above an average donks. I look at this hand and go, wow if I was the villian I'm slowing down anything but the straight on the turn. The problem with this is that they don't think like I do, so maybe it leads to me maybe making too many tight folds. Had I actually been at the table with this guy and played a few hands it could change my decision. But, I know nothing about this player, his dendencys, how hes played past hands. All I know is the information from this hand and this hand only. So I have to give him credit for being a solid player until he shows me otherwise. I guess the reason I really give this guy credit for J10s is because that is the exact line I would take with that exact hand. Put me in that same spot on the turn and yeah I probably call a lot of the time. Simply for no other reason than this would be a HUGE laydown. This hand has really been bugging me cause I'm really not sure the best way to proceed. And wow it literally just now clicked as I write this! We are killing every other hand but J10, KK or QQ is 4% to hit, AK or KQ is drawing to runner runner straight on the board 0.2%, KJ or A10 ect, only 12%. This is why it didn't make sense the me that we'd get action from these hands cause they are in such bad shape. Now, I like checking the flop then calling a bet. Same on the turn, re-evaluate on calling or raisng the river at that time. This line gives us the most value from hands we beat, and we lose the minimum when we are behind. If we are making quick calls it will make our hand look weaker than it actually is. At absolute worst here were dodging a 4 outer by someone with like a pair and a gut shot. Let them or one of the other hands we have crushed do the betting for us. If the board pairs on the turn or river, no one's gonna give us credit for the aces full. If the board does hit another J or 10, our check call line is gonna make any opponent very leary about our hand. I'd say we hardley every get bluffed in that spot and can hopefully just show down the hand. Basically, I look at it like this. The only way we get the stack of some holding J10 is if we put it in behind and hit. Gotta believe they won't stack off if the turn pairs. Any other hand in the range to raise that flop, will probably bet it all the way to the river for us, and we take most of their stack. If the board pairs and they make a boat, we're getting their stack no matter when the money goes is, be it the flop or on the river.

[No_Neck 0]

For the record, I've really enjoyed Ricer's perspective on this.

Sigh keep egging them on you donkey.

[KentuckySlim 0]

Yeah I probably don't check fold, I just didn't really want to go into all the thought of what I would do because so many things could happen with 4 players behind. Saying I would check the flop has nothing to do with the fact that the hero was raised on this actual hand. I just don't really want to build the pot out of position because in my mind I don't see how I get a call by worse hands. Granted my level of thinking is probably way above an average donks. I look at this hand and go, wow if I was the villian I'm slowing down anything but the straight on the turn. The problem with this is that they don't think like I do, so maybe it leads to me maybe making too many tight folds. Had I actually been at the table with this guy and played a few hands it could change my decision. But, I know nothing about this player, his dendencys, how hes played past hands. All I know is the information from this hand and this hand only. So I have to give him credit for being a solid player until he shows me otherwise. I guess the reason I really give this guy credit for J10s is because that is the exact line I would take with that exact hand. Put me in that same spot on the turn and yeah I probably call a lot of the time. Simply for no other reason than this would be a HUGE laydown. This hand has really been bugging me cause I'm really not sure the best way to proceed. And wow it literally just now clicked as I write this! We are killing every other hand but J10, KK or QQ is 4% to hit, AK or KQ is drawing to runner runner straight on the board 0.2%, KJ or A10 ect, only 12%. This is why it didn't make sense the me that we'd get action from these hands cause they are in such bad shape. Now, I like checking the flop then calling a bet. Same on the turn, re-evaluate on calling or raisng the river at that time. This line gives us the most value from hands we beat, and we lose the minimum when we are behind. If we are making quick calls it will make our hand look weaker than it actually is. At absolute worst here were dodging a 4 outer by someone with like a pair and a gut shot. Let them or one of the other hands we have crushed do the betting for us. If the board pairs on the turn or river, no one's gonna give us credit for the aces full. If the board does hit another J or 10, our check call line is gonna make any opponent very leary about our hand. I'd say we hardley every get bluffed in that spot and can hopefully just show down the hand. Basically, I look at it like this. The only way we get the stack of some holding J10 is if we put it in behind and hit. Gotta believe they won't stack off if the turn pairs. Any other hand in the range to raise that flop, will probably bet it all the way to the river for us, and we take most of their stack. If the board pairs and they make a boat, we're getting their stack no matter when the money goes is, be it the flop or on the river.

Yes, but we're winning the minimum too. IMHO, he has J-10 WAY less than 50% of the time here. I just really really think you get a straight call for the slow play from 80% of the .5/1 players on stars if they have broadway.Wrong. Again, you are giving these players too much credit. If the board pairs the turn or river (but not both), the vast majority of players at these levels lose their whole stack.I just feel like you gotta do your best to get all the money in the pot in any way possible. If Villian has J-10, that sucks and you got supercoolered with the 2nd nuts. It happens. But at these levels with these players, I certainly think it's a +EV play.

[timwakefield 68]

Ok well if anybody's interested in results - I kind of threw you guys for a loop on this one. I switched it up, and I was really the villain here and held JT, and my opponent pushed after my raise to $28 and showed AA (I held ). Anyways I just thought it was a really interesting hand from his perspective, but not so much from mine. I raised the flop because I figured it was the best way to get it all in, and that basically any A K or Q on the turn and I don't like my hand very much and I've slowplayed myself out of a big pot.

[danc1984 0]

Ok well if anybody's interested in results - I kind of threw you guys for a loop on this one. I switched it up, and I was really the villain here and held JT, and my opponent pushed after my raise to $28 and showed AA (I held ). Anyways I just thought it was a really interesting hand from his perspective, but not so much from mine. I raised the flop because I figured it was the best way to get it all in, and that basically any A K or Q on the turn and I don't like my hand very much and I've slowplayed myself out of a big pot.

Wow. What an absolute monster cooler for the other dude. I don't think anyone could possibly fault either of you for your play, its just one of those flops where its all going in there at some point.

[David_Nicoson 1]

Ok well if anybody's interested in results - I kind of threw you guys for a loop on this one. I switched it up, and I was really the villain here and held JT, and my opponent pushed after my raise to $28 and showed AA (I held ). Anyways I just thought it was a really interesting hand from his perspective, but not so much from mine. I raised the flop because I figured it was the best way to get it all in, and that basically any A K or Q on the turn and I don't like my hand very much and I've slowplayed myself out of a big pot.

How does it feel to know you aren't a decent player?

[KentuckySlim 0]

How does it feel to know you aren't a decent player?

Great thread. I think OP played this hand GREAT considering he had J-10. However, I still think you have to go the whole way with aces in this hand. J-10 may be the only hand that OP was willing to play for all his chips in this situation, but that is NOT true of most players at .5/1 on Pstars. I'm glad that OP isn't a donkey, but I think in general, most players you find at this level are willing to go broke here with several hands (AK,AQ,KQ,KK,QQ and some even AJ or A10). This is why I love cash games on pstars.I get stacked here with the aces too.

[David_Nicoson 1]

Great thread. I think OP played this hand GREAT considering he had J-10. However, I still think you have to go the whole way with aces in this hand.

Yep. I agree; they both played well.

[mtdesmoines 3]

Ain't nobody folding this flop. And I like how you both got the money in.Why shouldn't you?

[timwakefield 68]

Ain't nobody folding this flop. And I like how you both got the money in.Why shouldn't you?

Yep I agree, I don't think I could get away from aces there. The redraws are just so damn good if I'm behind