The Bible

[renaedawn 1]

He is not going to get it, because he doesn't want to. None of this is special- none of this is new- it's the same stuff, rehashed over and over. The kids point was valid- compared to other works of literature the bible holds up just fine, and the message has not been lost. Now in order to know that, you would have to have received the message.

Such as?

[Loismustdie 0]

Such as?

The poster before brought up the Homers works, I believe. How many works of literature have really been around that long? I really don't know.

[renaedawn 1]

The poster before brought up the Homers works, I believe. How many works of literature have really been around that long? I really don't know.

Hence the question.How can you say the Bible stands the test of time compared to other works if there are no other works?

[Loismustdie 0]

Hence the question.How can you say the Bible stands the test of time compared to other works if there are no other works?

Lol- wouldn't that be proof in and of itself?Not much to go up against, but this one sure seems to hold up quite nicely. The test is this- find me a difference in doctrine. Guys like chrisuk_sw will bring up things like numbers of birds on the ark not matching, who cares? That's the best we can come up with? Please. Cry me a river. If that holds you up, I cannot help you. That's like finding the perfect women except she can't type, so no go. Now, what we are looking for is differecne in doctrine, difference in how we get to heaven, how we serve God. Those differences aren't there, and by all rights they should be- I mean, scholars that translated the bible, yopu don't think they were adulterers, liars, fornicators? By all accounts King James was not a very good guy, why would he commision the bible to be done truthfully when it condemned him as well? Why not run interference then? What did he gain by doing this? Nothing.

[renaedawn 1]

Lol- wouldn't that be proof in and of itself?Not much to go up against, but this one sure seems to hold up quite nicely. The test is this- find me a difference in doctrine. Guys like chrisuk_sw will bring up things like numbers of birds on the ark not matching, who cares? That's the best we can come up with? Please. Cry me a river. If that holds you up, I cannot help you. That's like finding the perfect women except she can't type, so no go. Now, what we are looking for is differecne in doctrine, difference in how we get to heaven, how we serve God. Those differences aren't there, and by all rights they should be- I mean, scholars that translated the bible, yopu don't think they were adulterers, liars, fornicators? By all accounts King James was not a very good guy, why would he commision the bible to be done truthfully when it condemned him as well? Why not run interference then? What did he gain by doing this? Nothing.

This is exactly what I'm saying.You stated that the Bible holds up nicely versus other works of literature. I'm asking you what other literature exists that allows you to make a comparison. I don't think you can say the Bible stands the test of time (as you did) when there is nothing that it can be compared to.

[chrisuk_sw 0]

The test is this- find me a difference in doctrine. Guys like chrisuk_sw will bring up things like numbers of birds on the ark not matching, who cares? That's the best we can come up with? Please. Cry me a river. If that holds you up, I cannot help you. That's like finding the perfect women except she can't type, so no go. Now, what we are looking for is difference in doctrine, difference in how we get to heaven, how we serve God. Those differences aren't there, and by all rights they should be....

A couple of differences in doctrine in the New Testament....Fear God, or do not fear God?Luke 124: I tell you, my friends, do not be afraid of those who kill the body and after that can do no more.5: But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear him who, after the killing of the body, has power to throw you into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him.(Matthew 10:24-28 has pretty much the same passage)1 John 416: And so we know and rely on the love God has for us. God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in him.17: In this way, love is made complete among us so that we will have confidence on the day of judgment, because in this world we are like him.18: There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love.Thieves cannot go to heaven, or they can go to heaven?1 Corinthians 6 9: Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders10: nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.Luke 2340: But the other criminal* rebuked him. "Don't you fear God," he said, "since you are under the same sentence?41: We are punished justly, for we are getting what our deeds deserve. But this man has done nothing wrong."42: Then he said, "Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom43: Jesus answered him, "I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise."* this criminal is a thief - Mark 15:27: They crucified two robbers with him, one on his right and one on his left.There was also this thread about how the NT says that denial of the holy ghost is an unforgiveable sin, yet Acts 13:39 says that all sins can be forgiven through faith, or Revelation 14 stating that only 144000 male virgins will be saved, when numerous passages (John 3:16 for example) say that whosoever believes will be saved....etc etc

[Loismustdie 0]

A couple of differences in doctrine in the New Testament....Fear God, or do not fear God?Luke 124: I tell you, my friends, do not be afraid of those who kill the body and after that can do no more.5: But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear him who, after the killing of the body, has power to throw you into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him.(Matthew 10:24-28 has pretty much the same passage)1 John 416: And so we know and rely on the love God has for us. God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in him.17: In this way, love is made complete among us so that we will have confidence on the day of judgment, because in this world we are like him.18: There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love.Thieves cannot go to heaven, or they can go to heaven?1 Corinthians 6 9: Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders10: nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.Luke 2340: But the other criminal* rebuked him. "Don't you fear God," he said, "since you are under the same sentence?41: We are punished justly, for we are getting what our deeds deserve. But this man has done nothing wrong."42: Then he said, "Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom43: Jesus answered him, "I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise."* this criminal is a thief - Mark 15:27: They crucified two robbers with him, one on his right and one on his left.There was also this thread about how the NT says that denial of the holy ghost is an unforgiveable sin, yet Acts 13:39 says that all sins can be forgiven through faith, or Revelation 14 stating that only 144000 male virgins will be saved, when numerous passages (John 3:16 for example) say that whosoever believes will be saved....etc etc

That's about as funny as it gets right there. I know- you should just cherry pick random scriptures that make statements, don't worry about context, and try and disprove the bible!! Wheeeeee!! Wait, you have already done that.

[Loismustdie 0]

This is exactly what I'm saying.You stated that the Bible holds up nicely versus other works of literature. I'm asking you what other literature exists that allows you to make a comparison. I don't think you can say the Bible stands the test of time (as you did) when there is nothing that it can be compared to.

You know what, that may be true, I need some time to look into it. You have actually made quite the argument for it ebing a one of a kind, special work of literature,though. I appreciate that. Basically, I can say everything I said, except that it could be compared to others. I can accept that- I made some damn good points in everything else. Either way, I come out on top, and in my world, that's money, baby.

[jmkiser 0]

That's about as funny as it gets right there. I know- you should just cherry pick random scriptures that make statements, don't worry about context, and try and disprove the bible!! Wheeeeee!! Wait, you have already done that.

should I pull in the typical Lois response about "wow, good job... you didn't refute any specific point he actually discussed"?too late, I guess

[Loismustdie 0]

should I pull in the typical Lois response about "wow, good job... you didn't refute any specific point he actually discussed"?too late, I guess

Every "point" he made was to ridiculous for even me to discuss. He knows it. You know it. Why pretend?

[Flack_attack 0]

Every "point" he made was to ridiculous for even me to discuss. He knows it. You know it. Why pretend?

At least address the forgiveness of sins. That seems to be a blatant contradiction. God will forgive ALL SINS it says some places, but in others it says there is an unforgiveable sin. Which is it? And should we fear God or not fear God? It seems to be a blatant contradiction. Enlighten me.

[chrisuk_sw 0]

Every "point" he made was to ridiculous for even me to discuss. He knows it. You know it. Why pretend?

You claimed the bible has no contradictions in doctrine. I pointed out four apparent contradictions that are known to me. Believe me, I never expected anything other than one of your 4 catch-all irrefutable anti-logic opposing arguments (I was careful to only use the NT to avoid number 5: "that's the old testament so it doesn't count")1. The quotes are taken out of context2. The meaning of the quotes are different from the meaning given by the actual words3. It only makes sense if you take the bible as a whole4. I just don't "get it"But I had to challenge your assertion that "doctrinal differences simply aren't there". They are. I do kind of agree with you, though. The bible should be too ridiculous to discuss, and would be if people didn't believe it.

[Loismustdie 0]

At least address the forgiveness of sins. That seems to be a blatant contradiction. God will forgive ALL SINS it says some places, but in others it says there is an unforgiveable sin. Which is it? And should we fear God or not fear God? It seems to be a blatant contradiction. Enlighten me.

Sure, he will forgive- until he stops forgiving. There are limits. What is blasphemy of the Holy Spirit? Do you know? Or is this just purely argumentative?

[Loismustdie 0]

You claimed the bible has no contradictions in doctrine. I pointed out four apparent contradictions that are known to me. Believe me, I never expected anything other than one of your 4 catch-all irrefutable anti-logic opposing arguments (I was careful to only use the NT to avoid number 5: "that's the old testament so it doesn't count")1. The quotes are taken out of context2. The meaning of the quotes are different from the meaning given by the actual words3. It only makes sense if you take the bible as a whole4. I just don't "get it"But I had to challenge your assertion that "doctrinal differences simply aren't there". They are. I do kind of agree with you, though. The bible should be too ridiculous to discuss, and would be if people didn't believe it.

So don't discuss it. Simple as that.

[Flack_attack 0]

No, there's not limits. 77x7 is how often we are told to forgive, meaning endless times.

[Loismustdie 0]

No, there's not limits. 77x7 is how often we are told to forgive, meaning endless times.

Since when do the rules that apply to us apply to God as well? Since never.

[Flack_attack 0]

Oh okay so God wants us mortals to have unending patience but the all powerful being gets a free pass to be angry now and then? That doesn't make sense. And where does it say in the Bible that the rule does NOT apply to God? Jesus said the 77x7 rule, and jesus lived by what he said, and jesus was god. You see?

[Loismustdie 0]

Oh okay so God wants us mortals to have unending patience but the all powerful being gets a free pass to be angry now and then? That doesn't make sense. And where does it say in the Bible that the rule does NOT apply to God? Jesus said the 77x7 rule, and jesus lived by what he said, and jesus was god. You see?

If you accept that God can go to bat for you you also have to accept that he can turn on you, if he decided that was the course of action to take. Hebrews 10: [26] For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,[27] But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.[28] He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:[29] Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?[30] For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.[31] It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. There is a point when God will no longer forgive.

[Balloon guy 158]

To the OPThe question of whether or not we can trust the bible is a good one. And one I believe can be answered with a clear yes.I recently went to a Bible Museum in Phoenix area and bought an excellant book that explains how we have our English translation. I was amazed at what I didn't know.The Bible was written over 1500 years and written by over 60 authors, we have enough copies of the entire new testament to have a very strong argument that what we have is true to the original.The old testament was written and copied by Jewish scribes that held the very paper sacred, they had intricate methods for comparing copies, if a copy failed the tests, they were repaired and only used in schools, never in church. The comparison of ten people in a room whispering a sentance is foolish compared to copying something and rechecking it multiple times.The dead sea scrolls gave us copies of the old testament as much as 1000 years older than the previous copies, yet showed little to no 'mistakes' in our current editions.We also have enough letters written by the church fathers that quote the new testament to rewrite 90% of the NT.The arguement that the books of the NT were written 50+ years after the events doesn't hold water. The city of Jerusalem was destroyed by the Romans in 62 AD, yet none of the books even mention this?There is a secular magazine called Biblical Archeologicalreview that uses the Bible to guide the digs of ancient cities, because it has proven reliable over and over again.The Bible has been under attack for thousands of years, and has always stood the test, to say otherwise is to ignore history.I know of no contridiction that exist that have not been explained a hundred times, but they will be explained agian and again as new people think they found a new one. The Davinci code is a good example, total myth refuted hundreds of years ago, and yet once again the swoon theory comes alive.

[Balloon guy 158]

This is exactly what I'm saying.You stated that the Bible holds up nicely versus other works of literature. I'm asking you what other literature exists that allows you to make a comparison. I don't think you can say the Bible stands the test of time (as you did) when there is nothing that it can be compared to.

Shakespear, no complete copies of his work exist. Less than 300 years old??Homer's Iiliad, earliest edition is 1,000 years after the original

[Balloon guy 158]

At least address the forgiveness of sins. That seems to be a blatant contradiction. God will forgive ALL SINS it says some places, but in others it says there is an unforgiveable sin. Which is it? And should we fear God or not fear God? It seems to be a blatant contradiction. Enlighten me.

The blasphamy of the Holy Spirit is the unforgivable sin.The Holy Spirit is the active force working inside you to lead you to Christ, to deny Him would mean you deny Christ, which leaves you in your sin, hence not going to heaven. Therefore, unforgiven.It is a debated issue that my pastor explained to me by saying if you are worried that you've committed it, then you haven't, since committing it would leave you not caring about it.We on the other hand have nothing that we can be indignant bout, all f our sins are forgiven, so for us not to forgive others is to be judgemental and prideful. I fall short of this at times. But my forgiveness is moot in terms of a persons salvation, just affects my personal walk.

[chrisuk_sw 0]

But I had to challenge your assertion that "doctrinal differences simply aren't there". They are. I do kind of agree with you, though. The bible should be too ridiculous to discuss, and would be if people didn't believe it.

So don't discuss it. Simple as that.

I gave serious consideration to this, but it is my belief that it would be immoral not to challenge people's religious belief.In most of the 20th century, the driving engines of strife were political worldviews, revolutionary communism and fascism, evils that led to mass starvations, wars, gulags and people being burned in ovens.Now we have different driving engines of strife - the religious worldviews of fundamentalist Islam and Christianity. Blind faith can lead people to fly planes into buildings. Blind faith can lead people to believe that rape victims deserve it. Evil must be opposed.

[chrisuk_sw 0]

I know of no contridiction that exist that have not been explained a hundred times, but they will be explained agian and again as new people think they found a new one. The Davinci code is a good example, total myth refuted hundreds of years ago, and yet once again the swoon theory comes alive.********The blasphamy of the Holy Spirit is the unforgivable sin.The Holy Spirit is the active force working inside you to lead you to Christ, to deny Him would mean you deny Christ, which leaves you in your sin, hence not going to heaven. Therefore, unforgiven.It is a debated issue that my pastor explained to me by saying if you are worried that you've committed it, then you haven't, since committing it would leave you not caring about it.We on the other hand have nothing that we can be indignant bout, all f our sins are forgiven, so for us not to forgive others is to be judgemental and prideful. I fall short of this at times. But my forgiveness is moot in terms of a persons salvation, just affects my personal walk.

Well, there's been a whole topic on this one point, but it does seem to contradict other parts of the Bible where it says that all sins are forgiveable. There were 3 other apparent contradictions I gave - about fearing God/not fearing God, about thieves going to heaven/not going to heaven, about Revelation saying only 144,000 would be saved/all who believe will be saved.I deny the Holy Spirit. I do not care whether I have committed the unforgiveable sin. Therefore, I think you're saying that I have committed this sin.To threadcross, Loismustdie asked what would happen if we found that aliens had and used the exact same Bible as we do. If this were to happen, I would accept that the Bible is true, and that Jesus Christ was my lord and saviour. But there would be no salvation for me as I have already committed a sin that cannot be forgiven.

[Balloon guy 158]

So don't discuss it. Simple as that.I gave serious consideration to this, but it is my belief that it would be immoral not to challenge people's religious belief.In most of the 20th century, the driving engines of strife were political worldviews, revolutionary communism and fascism, evils that led to mass starvations, wars, gulags and people being burned in ovens.Now we have different driving engines of strife - the religious worldviews of fundamentalist Islam and Christianity. Blind faith can lead people to fly planes into buildings. Blind faith can lead people to believe that rape victims deserve it. Evil must be opposed.

In most of the 20th century, the absense of God resulted in the atrocities you mentioned, belief systems that had at their core a no God foundation. Communism, there is no God and Nazism, the German people are the most evolved of all people and deserve to rule....To lump Christianity in with radical Islam is grasping at straws. Just as picking the worst of a group and labeling the entire group by their actions.

[Balloon guy 158]

Well, there's been a whole topic on this one point, but it does seem to contradict other parts of the Bible where it says that all sins are forgiveable. There were 3 other apparent contradictions I gave - about fearing God/not fearing God, about thieves going to heaven/not going to heaven, about Revelation saying only 144,000 would be saved/all who believe will be saved.I deny the Holy Spirit. I do not care whether I have committed the unforgiveable sin. Therefore, I think you're saying that I have committed this sin.To threadcross, Loismustdie asked what would happen if we found that aliens had and used the exact same Bible as we do. If this were to happen, I would accept that the Bible is true, and that Jesus Christ was my lord and saviour. But there would be no salvation for me as I have already committed a sin that cannot be forgiven.

You want to believe that there are contridictions, therefore you are grabbing things out of context, probably because you read about them in a "These are contridiction" internet site. I'll bet you were not peruseing the Word and thought: Hey this seems to contridict what I read over here. So you have no context in your reading, and expect us to put it in context for you. Which would be self explanitory if you read the Bible, but you don't have the intellectual honesty to do that, so you nit pick at the heals of something that is above you.Here's a better one, in Proverbs it says; answer a fool according to his folly. Then the NEXT verse says: Do not answer a fool according to his folly.Which one should I apply to you?