Nba Playoffs

[Jadaki 1]

They were very close to winning 4 games last year and they are better this year.

Yea, so are the Pistons. Last year they blew all their energy in the regular season and went into the playoffs tired and not playing their best. This year they coasted to the playoffs and now they are steamrolling everyone.

[Jadaki 1]

Go go NBA for handing the series to the Spurs with outdated rules.Amare and Diaw suspended one game each, Horry for two games.The Suns are going to lose this series because of technicalities, Nash's bloody nose in the first game cost them a shot at a win and losing two of their top 6 players for game 5 is like handing a victory to the Spurs. Way to let outdated rules decide the outcome of the best series that will be played this year.And like Jalen's comments about Duncan, why isn't he getting suspended?

[WestcoastCanuck 0]

Just a mind numbingly stupid decision by the NBA.

[Miguel McHarris 0]

Stupid decision. It's a shame because this is the best series we'll see in the playoffs. It'd be fun to watch a Suns-Warriors conference final, but it doesn't look like it's going to happen, Jessica Alba will be sad and that's bad.

[princeof56k 0]

First, the suspensions sucks for the Suns. Second, Stern and the NBA made the right move in suspending them.Since in circumstances such as these people rarely bother to read the rules, I listed it below along with a link. It's Rule 12, Section VII, part C.http://www.nba.com/analysis/rules_index.html

During an altercation, all players not participating in the game must remain in the immediate vicinity of their bench. Violators will be suspended, without pay, for a minimum of one game and fined up to $35,000. The suspensions will commence prior to the start of their next game. A team must have a minimum of eight players dressed and ready to play in every game. If five or more players leave the bench, the players will serve their suspensions alphabetically, according to the first letters of their last name. If seven bench players are suspended (assuming no participants are included), four of them would be suspended for the first game following the altercation. The remaining three would be suspended for the second game following the altercation.

First, I'll discuss why the rule exist in the first place. It of course came to exist because of the bench clearing brawls in the mid 90s. They couldve made the rule so that only players in the brawl were suspended but they decided not to. This is becuase the refs already have enough trouble trying to manage to 10 players on the court. With additonal players running onto the court, the situation becomes harder to control and could get worse. Therefore, the NBA doesnt want any player from the bench running onto the court during an altercation. They are basically trying to PREVENT an all out brawl (whether one happens or not).By reading the rule, it becomes obvious that Stoudemire and Diaw should be susupended. They left the area of their bench during an altercation. After the hit, Horry and a group of players were shoving around mid-court. If they had been closer to the Suns half of the court, Stoudemire and Diaw couldve got involved in the shoving and the situation couldve got out of control. Sure it didnt happen that way, but thats what the NBA is trying to prevent.Suns fans argue that Duncan and Bowen should be suspended. I've also heard that argument from Jalen Rose and Steve Kerr. If they bothered to read the rule, they would see it applies to players leaving the bench during an ALTERCATION (meaning a fight or something that could escillate into one). During the Duncan incedent, a Spurs player threw down a massive dunk (Duncan took a step onto the court in celebration) and then got tangled up with a Suns player. Afterwards, the Spurs player pleaded to the ref for a call while the Suns player took off down court (Duncan took another step out to the 3 point line). There was no shoving or arguing between the teams. Basically there was no altercation. Since there was no altercation, Duncan should not be suspended. And its pretty clear from wathcing the video that the situation involving Duncan was totally different from the one involving Horry and Nash. You could also argue that Duncan was still in the area of the bench, but I'm not sure that would hold up with Stern.Nash also tried to argue that players step onto the court in celebration all the time. If he would read the rule book, he would see the difference. The rule specifically states "altercations" and for good reason.So why cant the NBA go easy here? Because if they dont the rule becomes impossible to enforce. Everyone will point out that the NBA gave the Suns a break, and now they should get the same treatment. But this is the playoffs and an important series? Well the rule came about because of the increased intensity during the playoffs (the old Bulls-Knicks series). And yes it has affected a series (Knicks-Heat). With playoff emotions, its the exact time when things can get out of control. The NBA has zero tolerance with this rule. They dont want fights getting out of control.

[Jadaki 1]

It says you can't leave the immediate vicinity of the bench, it doesn't say you can't stand up, it doesn't say you can't even walk onto the court. Immediate vicinity is up for debate, and the NBA screwed this up. We all know why the rules are put into place, but it's still up to their judgment on how to best enforce them.

[SuitedAces21 2,741]

If the same situation occured in mid December, then no one is complaining about the suspensions. Its only because it is the playoffs that anoyone is upset by it. You cant enforce the rules only when the next game means nothing. A rule is a rule, and by the rule they deserved the suspensions.

[Poppy_Hillis 11]

They can still win, I actually think they're more of an explosive offensive team without Stoudemire because they're forced to run. They can do it. Please do it because the thought of another Spurs championship is vomit inducing.

[princeof56k 0]

It says you can't leave the immediate vicinity of the bench, it doesn't say you can't stand up, it doesn't say you can't even walk onto the court. Immediate vicinity is up for debate, and the NBA screwed this up. We all know why the rules are put into place, but it's still up to their judgment on how to best enforce them.

I'm not sure how you could argue Stoudemire didnt leave the vicinity of the bench. It's very clear that he did.

[Jadaki 1]

I'm not sure how you could argue Stoudemire didnt leave the vicinity of the bench. It's very clear that he did.

He walked around two other people and to get around them he had to step onto the court and then he was back on the sideline walking toward Nash, and never even got there.I understand why the rule is in place, and anyone with common sense understands why it's retarded. Did either Suns player get involved in any altercation, no so whats the point of suspending them for being concerned out their leader getting taken out by another Spurs cheapshot? At this point I'd love to see someone undercut Duncan or Parker and drop them on their head and see what happens. The league not handling this properly is a lot more likely to end up in even more physical and dirty play.

[Rodney21a 1]

He walked around two other people and to get around them he had to step onto the court and then he was back on the sideline walking toward Nash, and never even got there.I understand why the rule is in place, and anyone with common sense understands why it's retarded. Did either Suns player get involved in any altercation, no so whats the point of suspending them for being concerned out their leader getting taken out by another Spurs cheapshot? At this point I'd love to see someone undercut Duncan or Parker and drop them on their head and see what happens. The league not handling this properly is a lot more likely to end up in even more physical and dirty play.

Yep. You definitely like to argue your circular logic. He ran 25 feet towards the altercation, the shoving match that was taking place ON THE COURT. He was restrained by assistant coaches. Officials reviewed tape and made their decision based on the rules. You still think your ideas have merit. Sure Horry fouled Nash. That is the Playoffs. I would say that the difference between Horry's foul of Nash and Barbosa's fouls on Paker in previous games is minimal. If your buying into the hype that either one of these teams is less or more "dirty" than the other then you don't have a fundamental understanding of NBA basketball. To illustrate my point. Larry Bird and Dr J got in a FIST fight in a playoff game in the 80's. No fouls were called. No suspensions were handed out. That was when men were men and not in this culture of "gagnstaism". So the NBA has had to implement rules to prevent the "altercations" from turning into Brawls. Still there was he incident in Detroit and the brawl in the Miami/Nicks series a few years ago. Lets just watch the games and see how it unfolds. I'm curious. What team is YOUR team. Are you in an NBA city? Oh....forget it. You've already brought out the "conspiracy" card.

[princeof56k 0]

Listen, I dont like that Stoudemire and Diaw are suspended. It might ruin a great game 5. (Dont count the Suns out. They'll be playing at home with a chip on their shoulder).But the NBA HAD to suspend them. They HAD to enforce the rule. If they dont, it looks as though they're playing favorites to the Suns. That's why the rule is so black and white, and its not left open to interpetation. If the rule is left open to personal judgement, they create a whole new (and much much worse) type of criticism.BTW, I actually like the hip check by Horry. (And I agree with Horry's suspension too). Nothing wrong with knocking someone on their *** every once in a while, and yes you go after the other teams main guy. Somewhere Bill Laimbeer is smiling right now.

[CaneBrain 97]

Listen, I dont like that Stoudemire and Diaw are suspended. It might ruin a great game 5. (Dont count the Suns out. They'll be playing at home with a chip on their shoulder).But the NBA HAD to suspend them. They HAD to enforce the rule. If they dont, it looks as though they're playing favorites to the Suns. That's why the rule is so black and white, and its not left open to interpetation. If the rule is left open to personal judgement, they create a whole new (and much much worse) type of criticism.BTW, I actually like the hip check by Horry. (And I agree with Horry's suspension too). Nothing wrong with knocking someone on their *** every once in a while, and yes you go after the other teams main guy. Somewhere Bill Laimbeer is smiling right now.

While I understand your point.....it feels like the NBA has done everything in its power to help the Spurs out in this series. Bruce Bowen got off light for his flagrant fouls in games two and three. Plus replays clearly show Duncan leaving the bench in Game 3 (see Chris Sheridan's blog on espn.com) but Stu Jackson ruled that wasnt an altercation so its ok.Well why couldnt they just say this wasnt an altercation? Just a flagrant foul and some words exchanged perhaps? The NBA had an opportunity to show that they have brains and can use them. I dont think anyone from San Antonio wants to win this way or would have cried the NBA is favoring the Suns if some restraint was exercised. So, I understand why some people will say the NBA did what they had to but I am with Jadaki on this one. Any rule that results in this mess is a bad rule and there is nothing good about sticking with a bad rule or idea. (see: Iraq War)P.S.---I personally would have suspended Stoudamire but not Diaw. Stoudamire was far from the bench. You can make a case Diaw never left the immediate vicinity however. It is nonsense that Horry takes a cheap shot and yet the Spurs lose one guy and the Suns lose two. This would have been a solution that makes some sense which is exactly why it didnt happen.

[Jadaki 1]

Yep. You definitely like to argue your circular logic. He ran 25 feet towards the altercation, the shoving match that was taking place ON THE COURT. He was restrained by assistant coaches. Officials reviewed tape and made their decision based on the rules. You still think your ideas have merit. Sure Horry fouled Nash. That is the Playoffs. I would say that the difference between Horry's foul of Nash and Barbosa's fouls on Paker in previous games is minimal. If your buying into the hype that either one of these teams is less or more "dirty" than the other then you don't have a fundamental understanding of NBA basketball. To illustrate my point. Larry Bird and Dr J got in a FIST fight in a playoff game in the 80's. No fouls were called. No suspensions were handed out. That was when men were men and not in this culture of "gagnstaism". So the NBA has had to implement rules to prevent the "altercations" from turning into Brawls. Still there was he incident in Detroit and the brawl in the Miami/Nicks series a few years ago. Lets just watch the games and see how it unfolds. I'm curious. What team is YOUR team. Are you in an NBA city? Oh....forget it. You've already brought out the "conspiracy" card.

Your a Spurs fan, of course you biased. Please show me where anyone checked Parker into a wall or kneed him in the groin of clipped his achilles, it hasn't happened. The play wasn't even 25 feet from the bench, keep making up fake numbers.I don't have a team and everyone who posts in this forum regularly is aware of it. I follow players and enjoy the sport and like to watch good basketball. This rule being exploited to ruin what was going to probably be the best series in the playoffs this year and I'm calling it retarded because it is. Sorry you can't blame my point of view on being a Suns fanboy, I guess you could call Charles Barkley, Steve Kerr or every other analyst who agrees with me fanboys of the Suns too though right?There is the spirit of the rule and the letter of the rule. The spirit of the rule was to stop coaches like Pat Riley from sending in his 11th and 12th man on the bench to take cheap shots at star players and incite incidents like in the Knicks were notorious for doing in the 90's. That type of play cheap play has basically disappeared from the league. This ruling follows the letter of the rule instead of the spirit, and now there is going to be tremendous pressure for the league to change it in the offseason. If anything, if I was the Suns at this point I would be all about showing the NBA exactly how dumb the rule is by sending out my 12 man with orders to undercut any Spur in the lane or maybe clothesline Parker or Ginobli when they move through the lane. Instead of seeing good competitive basketball, the Suns have all the incentive in the world to cheap shot the Spurs star players to level the playing field since the league isn't giving them one.

I dont think anyone from San Antonio wants to win this way or would have cried the NBA is favoring the Suns if some restraint was exercised.

Let me introduce you to Rodney...yes I realize you were talking about the Spurs organization

[Rodney21a 1]

Just look at this. Now, I wasn't there. I didn't make measurements. 25 feet sounds about right. I don't think I have to argue your "points" you try to make about me in the rest of your post. You've consistently just illustrated throughout this thread what a contrarian you are. I'm not a big guy but I've played many a game on a BASKETBALL COURT. Just for exercise and comradery with my friends. I've been on a COURT pretty regularly in my life. You totally not knowing the dimensions of a court speak VOLUMES also.

[Jadaki 1]

Just look at this. Now, I wasn't there. I didn't make measurements. 25 feet sounds about right. I don't think I have to argue your "points" you try to make about me in the rest of your post. You've consistently just illustrated throughout this thread what a contrarian you are. I'm not a big guy but I've played many a game on a BASKETBALL COURT. Just for exercise and comradery with my friends. I've been on a COURT pretty regularly in my life. You totally not knowing the dimensions of a court speak VOLUMES also.

Ok genius, now watch the replay, you see Nash gets checked into the wall by the hash mark at the end of the coaches box, the entire coaches box is 28 feet wide and Amare was sitting in the middle of it, how did he run 25 feet across court when it happened less than 10-12 feet away and he didn't get all the way to Nash?

[Livaso 0]

phew this thread got fiery.How 'bout them Bulls?

[fleung22 1]

I love both teams (slight preference for Suns) which is why this will probaby be the best series like Jadaki said (reserve judgement if Suns vs. Pistons).Horry got what he deserved. I'm surprised they didn't let Amare off the hook. He was going to substitute and they could totally make a case that he was standing up in preparation for the change. Even if the rules are stupid Prince is right...you gotta enforce them. But there's always some grey area and I think for Amare that was it. There is no case for Diaw I don't think.

[Rodney21a 1]

phew this thread got fiery.How 'bout them Bulls?

I think That series going seven games. I can't see them loosing at home and if they do it will be an OT game. Looks Like Utah and Cleveland are getting relative walks into the Conference Finals. Wow! Deng is a Beast when he wants to be, looks like the Boys are back in Town. Like the song goes. Oh, and to the contrarian. Yeah I've watched the Video and Amare gets up from the Far side of the bench and Runs to the Scorer's table. If you look a the Diagram, its more than 20 feet. I know when you've only seen the Court on TV you and loose perspective and thats something you do alot. Both Charles Barkley and Kenny Smith stated "25 Feet". It happened. Its over. Let them play. Who is to say the Suns wont win TONIGHT. IF they do loose they can probably win game 6 in San Antonio. Its a Physical series. Most in the Playoffs at this level are. That bloody nose in the first game was shocking to say the least.However, it was Nash's physical play against Parker that caused it in the first place. The team, its coach, and players then go on and on about it in the Press. Now we have self professed NBA fanboys like you popping off in this Forum. Conspiracy theories. Bitching about long establish RULES. What ever. Seven Games. The best team will win. Nuff Said.

[Jadaki 1]

However, it was Nash's physical play against Parker that caused it in the first place. The team, its coach, and players then go on and on about it in the Press. Now we have self professed NBA fanboys like you popping off in this Forum. Conspiracy theories. Bitching about long establish RULES. What ever. Seven Games. The best team will win. Nuff Said.

You never shut the hell up when your wrong do you? The only people sitting closer to that end of the bench than Amare where the assistant coaches and one other player, the bench in your diagram is 28 feet long. Lets say he is halfway down the bench thats only 14 feet away from the incident, something tells me Kenny and Charles aren't the best judges of distance or maybe Chuck would not be such a donor in his golf games. Why are you agreeing with either of them now when you don't agree with them that Amare and Diaw should be playing game 5?Funny how every single sports show I've watched since it's been announced has every analyst bitching about this, it's not just fanboys like me as you claim. Who is the biased one here, me (the one with no team affiliation) or you (admitted Spurs fan)? I want to see both teams top players going at it in a decently officiated series, that's not happening. It's like CainBrain said sure looks like the NBA is trying to hand this to the Spurs.Also the word you were attempting to use is established, grammar and common sense are not your strong points are they?

[princeof56k 0]

I know most analysts hate the rule and players have always hated it, but I dont see the rule changing. Imagine if the rule didnt exist. During the Suns/Spurs Game 4 incedent, you probably wouldve had all of the players and coaches on the floor. That's 30+ people out there and 3 refs trying to calm things down. When that many players get on the court and emotions are high, someone is bound to throw a punch, and the all hell breaks loose. Thats what used to happen, the two players already on the floor are pushing (or worse), and then 2 other guys (one a starter and one who hardly even played in the game) end up throwing down. Its just too hard to control. You could actually argue that the rule prevented the Game 4 incedent from getting worse. It's exactly why players didnt come on to the floor. And the only way the rule works is if it has teeth. Therefore, I dont see Stern changing the rule, but he's surprised me before.Back to the playoffs, dont think that the winner of the Spurs-Suns series automatically wins the title. They still have to go through the Jazz. And I could easily see the Jazz beating either team. I think the Sprus would be a slight favortite against the Jazz. But against the Suns I think they are about even. Either way they'll take each team to 7 games at worst. And the Jazz have had good preperation for either team. Beating a half-court defense based Rockets team in 7 games (with the 7th game at home), and beating an up-and-down mad 3 point bombing Warriors team. The Jazz are for real.

[Jadaki 1]

They have the ability to review video tape and make a ruling about players who are or are not trying to instigate a fight. Anyone who has ever played sports at a competitive level knows that if your in a tight game just because your on the bench taking a break doesn't mean your not involved in whats going on in the game, it's a natural reaction when something like Horry's cheapshot occurs for players to jump up and go check on him their teammate.I don't see how they are calling the Horry cheap shot an altercation, no one threw a punch or anything at Horry that was worthy of suspension so how is it any different from the incident where Duncan walked onto the court?We know why the rule was put into place, it was never intended to alter possibly the most competitive series were going to see in this years playoffs.And though I don't expect the Jazz to be a cakewalk for either team, without home court they are going to have a lot of trouble beating either the Spurs or Suns. Both have players that match up better with Boozer than either the Rockets or Warriors had.

[princeof56k 0]

I don't see how they are calling the Horry cheap shot an altercation, no one threw a punch or anything at Horry that was worthy of suspension so how is it any different from the incident where Duncan walked onto the court?We know why the rule was put into place, it was never intended to alter possibly the most competitive series were going to see in this years playoffs.

Wait a second, you really dont see a difference between the Horry cheap shot incident and the one where Duncan walked out onto the floor? Really? You cant be serious. Have you seen what actually happened on the floor when Duncan walked out there? Basically nothing.Also, I missing why the bolded part matters in this discussion. If this happened in the Nets-Cavs series is it ok then? Do you really want to hear Stern say, "Yea I know rules exist and if it was anyone else they would be suspended, but this series is exciting and I really want the Suns to be at full strength." And where do you stop once you go down that path?

[Livaso 0]

0 tolerance. That's what it comes down to.I don't know if you've all been around the last couple of years, but you might have noticed the dress code and Wayne Newton at the all-star game.Its totally unfair but the NBA is better than any other league I've seen at damage control. They're pretty authoritarian about it but they're definitely pro-active. They followed the rule to an exact and were very harsh. What's important to the NBA is Jordan's retired and the face of the sport took a turn for the worst after the Pistons-Indiana incident. This is the playoffs and the NBA can't try to take the passion out of the game but that's sending a message to players. I don't think the league is trying to hand anything to anybody. They just won't put up with anything at all especially when the judgemental (and mildly racist and stereotyping) eye of the public watches on. Look at the techs in the beginning of the season. That was to send a message as well. Its a witch hunt and Amare's the witch. Even if Amare actually did something wrong, its still a witch hunt. Anybody that knows NBA politics should recognize that.It doesn't matter though because Joakim Noah's a complete retard and will probably end up punching someone and continue his longstanding tradition of sounding and acting like a ******.

[Jadaki 1]

Wait a second, you really dont see a difference between the Horry cheap shot incident and the one where Duncan walked out onto the floor? Really? You cant be serious. Have you seen what actually happened on the floor when Duncan walked out there? Basically nothing.

Yea I was watching the game.It comes down to schematics, what is an altercation? If there was an altercation, why wasn't anyone on the Suns ejected the other night? Nobody threw punches, nobody retaliated so what makes that an altercation and what happened when Ellison got dumped on his head after the dunk any different?Also the NBA has not been 100% with enforcing this rule, remember the altercation between the Kings and Lakers a few years back with Rick Fox fighting on the way to the locker room after getting ejected and the Kings bench all left the immediate vicinity of the bench to rush over and get in the middle of the fight? Have a look at what Stu Jackson said about that incident and tell me they have ever been 100% in enforcing that stupid rule.And what happened in the game last night wasn't that surprising, Suns run out of gas in the 4th quarter because of the short bench. It's amazing they didn't lose by 15+.

Also, I missing why the bolded part matters in this discussion. If this happened in the Nets-Cavs series is it ok then? Do you really want to hear Stern say, "Yea I know rules exist and if it was anyone else they would be suspended, but this series is exciting and I really want the Suns to be at full strength." And where do you stop once you go down that path?

The bolded part matters to me as a basketball fan because it compromises the integrity of the playoffs as a whole. If the Spurs go on and win the championship this year to me they have an * next to it saying we couldn't beat the Suns at full strength. If it happened in any series I would be annoyed with it, I'm particularly annoyed because this was the series I was looking forward to the most. Now we are not seeing which team is actually best, because the Suns have only had their entire team on the court for 3 of the 5 games, and they are 2-1 in those games.