Rams Reply

[DoinSublime 0]

LOL you have no clue. I'll reply to the next relevant worthwhile poster who knows what he's talking about.

Andrew, change your tampax and take a break buddy.

[Andr4w 0]

Andrew, change your tampax and take a break buddy.

Sorry mate I just find it unbeleivable that people find it normal practice to cheat their friends and expect to get paid. If they do think its acceptable they they are from the same scum class as Ivey.Don't know what else to say, its as straight forward as that really.

[Pot Odds RAC 23]

Nope don't agree. So your another person who has no friends because youve ****ed them all over.No morals you lot, tut tut. You should be ashamed of yourselves.

Welchers should be ashamed of themselves.

[Andr4w 0]

Welchers should be ashamed of themselves.

I think both our dogs should stop chasing their tails for the moment?

[Rodney21a 1]

...and yet again, I'll take that as another vote for "No Rule Broken"...thanks again for playing......I got your nose.

Whats the point? These Sycophantic Brits aren't gonna budge. Hey Govonator. I think its time to lock this thread. Nuff bean said on both sides. In Fact, can you lock ALL THREADS on this subject. 20000 post. I think it has been covered.

[DoinSublime 0]

Sorry mate I just find it unbeleivable that people find it normal practice to cheat their friends and expect to get paid. If they do think its acceptable they they are from the same scum class as Ivey.Don't know what else to say, its as straighforward as that really.

I understand you're passionate about what you're talking about. Pardon the slander, just throwing a little humor in there to lighten it up a bit, but getting upset and reiterating yourself over and over isn't going to change anything (ie. other people's opinions).Cheers.

[Pot Odds RAC 23]

Sorry mate I just find it unbeleivable that people find it normal practice to cheat their friends and expect to get paid. If they do think its acceptable they they are from the same scum class as Ivey.Don't know what else to say, its as straight forward as that really.

Ok......for the last time...Even Ram has not implied that Ivey "cheated". No rule of golf broken, no cheating. It is, as you say, as straight forward as that really.Did you actually read and understand Ram's reply? He played golf for two days with a guy LOSING ALL THE TIME AND HE KEPT PLAYING!!! They even RAISED the stakes. Ram is a compulsive gambler and a wlecher. He was looking for any excuse to avoid paying a fair bet. What EXACTLY did Ivey do wrong? Ram seems to take exception that Phil practicsed and got better at the game faster than Ram expected and then down played how good he was. ARE YOU FREAKING KIDDING ME?!?!Grow up.And pay up.

[Andr4w 0]

Ok......for the last time...Even Ram has not implied that Ivey "cheated". No rule of golf broken, no cheating. It is, as you say, as straight forward as that really.Did you actually read and understand Ram's reply? He played golf for two days with a guy LOSING ALL THE TIME AND HE KEPT PLAYING!!! They even RAISED the stakes. Ram is a compulsive gambler and a wlecher. He was looking for any excuse to avoid paying a fair bet. Wht EXACTLY did Ivey do wrong? Ram seems to take exception that Phil practicsed and got better at the game faster than Ram expected and then down played how good he was. ARE YOU FREAKING KIDDING ME?!?!Grow up.And pay up.

Quote from Ram'As I will explain most of these stories are totally irrelevant anyway for there is only one main point, which is that when Phil was called to do the handicaps in our game in Australia he knowingly lied giving false information which resulted in a game which should never have happened as it was effectively a blatant con. 'Lets stop chasing tails now, I know we've got better things to do. I certainly have.

[fatshaft 0]

Ok......for the last time...Even Ram has not implied that Ivey "cheated". No rule of golf broken, no cheating. It is, as you say, as straight forward as that really.Did you actually read and understand Ram's reply? He played golf for two days with a guy LOSING ALL THE TIME AND HE KEPT PLAYING!!! They even RAISED the stakes. Ram is a compulsive gambler and a wlecher. He was looking for any excuse to avoid paying a fair bet. What EXACTLY did Ivey do wrong? Ram seems to take exception that Phil practicsed and got better at the game faster than Ram expected and then down played how good he was. ARE YOU FREAKING KIDDING ME?!?!Grow up.And pay up.

LOLOLOL, did you?

[Pot Odds RAC 23]

Quote from Ram'As I will explain most of these stories are totally irrelevant anyway for there is only one main point, which is that when Phil was called to do the handicaps in our game in Australia he knowingly lied giving false information which resulted in a game which should never have happened as it was effectively a blatant con. 'Lets stop chasing tails now, I know we've got better things to do. I certainly have.

I don't see any implication of "cheating" there. A "con" is subjective. I think it more "cheating" to agree to the rules of a bet, renegotiate those rules over the course of two days, and still refuse to pay up. That is breaking the agreed upon rules of the bet and therefore define as "cheating".Ram by his OWN WORDS cheated and is a welcher. This is based ONLY on his post.

[Pot Odds RAC 23]

LOLOLOL, did you?

Yep.Quite well.

[Doop 0]

Ok......for the last time...Even Ram has not implied that Ivey "cheated".

Taken from Ram's post:

As far as I am concerned this is blatantly cheating

Pot Odds, please learn to read before you start using the internet.

[Ecclesbury 0]

It makes absolutely no difference what anyone, no matter what their social standing, think either player should do in this situation.All that matters is what they actually do.If Phil Ivey wants to lie about how much golf he's been playing, he can. If Ram doesn't want to pay back the money, he doesn't have to. The whole bet is built on such shaky foundations of trust that either person can do whatever the hell they want, and there is nothing that the other players can legally do about it. Of course they must face the consequences of their actions.Hence there is fundamentally no point in arguing on here about who is in the right, and who should do what.It is quite clear from his post that Ram has no intention of ever paying. He sounds quite happy to have meetings and bring in arbitrators, providing they tell him he doesn't have to pay.

[Andr4w 0]

Taken from Ram's post:Pot Odds, please learn to read before you start using the internet.

LOL Pots odds I'm done with this for the moment, you make me laugh trying to argue when you are clearly wrong and its obvious. The funny thing is I know your blood is boiling and your getting really angry about this. We are sat here laughing our asses off at you

[fighter 4]

The best thing about this topic. IT is all in the ONE THREAD. I am so glad that there isnt a "nobody's" reply to daniel's reply to ram's reply thread ( it would have a better title i hope) As to something that related to ram's reply .................i dont play golf it is just such a self centered game. really look how much land is used compaired to the size of the ball. it is like playing marbles in an empty warehouse. ( i ripped off that joke from george carlin)

[yeager70 0]

Daniel, I didn't read through all of this and don't know if it was brought up before but you have posted several times that you bet people in golf and they have "the round of their life"...and it makes you very upset but to my knowledge you pay them....you even wote a blog sometime ago, about Russ Hamilton I believe, saying no one will play him cause he never tells the truth about his game and what kind of person is that....basically slamming him pretty good. Now, Ivey kind of does the same thing yet it is ok...cause that is what gamblers do?? Now they should pay the money but a true gentleman would have told his friends he has had coaching and has improved.

[Zebediah 0]

Nobody has responded to my question whether being hustled is acceptable and you should always pay in the US.Just I have read and heard of Doyle talking about times playing around Texas backrooms. Sometimes when the locals cottoned on to him being a pro poker player would pull guns on him, kick him out the game and keep all his money (or variations on that theme).Doyle stated he was just happy to get out alive!So these Texans considered him to be a hustler, and not only "welched" but stole his money too.I think what Phil did is worse than this because he used the trust of friendship to con Ram, Doyle never knew these guys from Adam, and played a fair game never trying to give the idea he was anything but good.Thoughts?

[rgold79 0]

Everyone had their 2 cents/pennies worth and although I'd like to see this matter settled amicably I fear the argument will rage on and deteriorate further, doing little for non poker players perception for the game as a whole.

OMG the outside world is absolutely riveted by this huge story! Congress was all set to fully legalize and regulate online poker, but in light of this story has decided to pull back. Did you see the editorial in yesterday's NY Times?Have you noticed that over several hundred posts, not one person from the Ram Camp or the Phil/DN Camp has a conceded a point to the other camp nor said anything to move this "argument" forward? It's just shouting.And yes, I hate myself for continually reading this thread. I guess I don't have much else going on.

[nutzbuster 7]

enough already...Peace!

[fatshaft 0]

Yep.Quite poorly.

FYP there Pot Odds

[Balloon guy 158]

please learn to read before you start using the internet.

Whoa.....is this a requirement?

[Pot Odds RAC 23]

LOL Pots odds I'm done with this for the moment, you make me laugh trying to argue when you are clearly wrong and its obvious. The funny thing is I know your blood is boiling and your getting really angry about this. We are sat here laughing our asses off at you

Whatever dude. Your read is wrong. Good game.

[Pot Odds RAC 23]

Taken from Ram's post:Pot Odds, please learn to read before you start using the internet.

Guess I missed that line. I was incorect. Sue me....I still contend that Ram is wrong in this. Sue me again.

[11 to 1 0]

I move to have all these threads LOCKED. Who is with me? Everything that can be said HAS been said.

Well - maybe not. After reading all this on both sites - here's a thought:What if no one did anything wrong?What if there are no bad guys, no "right" and this is just a good example of how wars start?This is what I believe really happened: it was a culture clash. It's like the day I sat down at a newly opened table at the casino and a guy I never saw before sits down next to me and says he is there on vacation and maybe I can explain to him how the game is played. So, I might look like I just fell off the turnip truck, but I didn't get hit in the head with the turnips. I say, "So, you've been playing since what? You were twelve or so?" His wife who is right there cracks up and makes a comment about how I have his number. I think this is what happened with the Ivey-Ram debacle.See, people like Daniel and Ivey "grew up" in a gambling/poker culture - lying is the game, the manipulation, the bluff, the intimidation or deceit, all things frowned upon in polite society. We reward and admire that in our gamblers and try to emulate it if we can. It's what the game really is after all, a con game that uses cards as a prop. But poker is not golf. And when poker players who basically only have other poker players for friends start playing golf, they play with one another and they play the same way: con game with club and ball.But that isn't the way the rest of the world plays golf - the world outside of Las Vegas and immediate environs. Especially for the British - where golf is practically an ancient tradition.I think when Phil heard Ram say he hadn't been playing much and his handicap should be adjusted, in Phil's mind Ram was just lying - just playing the game as Phil understands it - I don't think he thought Ram was doing a bad thing - it was just the kind of jousting he is used to in gambling games. So, of course, he rersponded in kind. "Oh yeah, I haven't been playing either..." Not a lie in Ivey's eyes - just strategy. But Ram was quite serious - stating something honestly as they tried to arrange their handicaps - because for him it was not gambling with clubs and balls as props - it was golf played by certain standards in which there is some wagering onthe holes. It was a gentlemen's agreement - no need for spelling it all out - everyone who plays golf (in his culture) understands this - they try to make it as even as possible prematch - it's supposed to be that way. Not for the American poker player who believes all games are wagering games and the point is to amass any advantage any way possible.I believe both sides in this issue simply assumed a reality that only existed for themselves and then, when it was over, wish to insist the other side accept their version of reality. No one is lying, everyone thinks they are the victim and both are as wrong as they are right - which means neither. Again, this whole thing should never have become public, it is no one's business but theirs. But since it is: if the two sides will agree to binding arbitration, find a cultural anthropologist and a family court judge from Australia to decide the issue and when they come to a decision that neither side likes - we'll know it was the correct call. As for Daniel's comments over all, I disagree, coming from a family that played as much golf as you do poker, that "high stakes" golfers would agree with Ivey. What golfers would those be? Tiger? Phil? Veejay? If you mean Las Vegas gamblers who play golf, I'm sure you are correct. But this isn't the way golf is played - not in the world outside your sub-culture. Of course, my family is also something of a sub-culture, so perhaps I am mistaken and I can't imagine the aforementioned superstars of golf touching this issue with an Oveglove on a twenty-foot putter.

[Naismith 0]

Honestly, I wouldn't be surprised if this is a cultural thing. For me, this is just a much higher stakes version of when my buddy and I go to a bar and negotiate on a handicap for darts. Sometimes I agree to something and realize during play I made a bad deal. I certainly don't continue to play and I don't get upset with my buddy for making the best deal possible.That said, maybe this sort of thing is considered cheating or taking advantage of a friend in other cultures.Regardless, at least there's a bare-knuckles boxer in this thread.