Learning Limit Poker

[JaysonWeber 0]

I'm not trying to be an ass or disagree with anyone here. I just was wondering why limit is considered harder? You know exactly what your betting options are and what your opponents betting options are. To be that seems a bit easier really... but I've never played so please be kind.

Play 1k hands of your NL, and then play 1k hands of Limit... if Limit's easier than NL (which I assume you're better than Limit at because you've never played limit lol). Its a different game, you can't be a NL player and just succeed at Limit, It simply doesn't work that way, I tried! Then I wised up and bought SSHE...

[Vade 0]

Also, has anyone played at Oneida in Green Bay or Potowatomi in Milwaukee? Which one would you recommend?

Only played at PotowatomiIf you don't mind a ridiculously long wait, it's a very nice room with no smoking and great dealers

[Swift_Psycho 1]

I'm not trying to be an ass or disagree with anyone here. I just was wondering why limit is considered harder? You know exactly what your betting options are and what your opponents betting options are. To be that seems a bit easier really... but I've never played so please be kind.

In NL, it is extremely easy to beat an unskilled player. People say NL is harder because you can make one mistake and lose all your chips. True. But, I only need my opponent to make one mistake and I'd take all of his. The latter happens more often if you know what you are doing. Not only that, but in NL you can bet any amount you want in order to give your opponent any odds you want. It's so simple.In limit, your options being limited actually makes the game infinitely harder. The edge you have on weaker opponents is much smaller. You need to figure out a way to maximize wins and push out draws to the best of your ability. Making a mistake in NL isn't so bad, you can make up for it on the next round of betting or perhaps in the same round if the action gets back to you. Making a mistake in limit can lose you the pot if you misplay a hand (you can do that in NL too, but it's harder to screw NL up).Without a question, easier money is made at NL. Limit is more mentally taxing, but NL is the way to go if you just play for money online and not necessarily for the competition. You'll get people with the opinion that NL is harder on this forum as well, but I can never understand how that opinion came about. This isn't really close at all. Limit is harder.Edit: I should also mention something about "tells" for live play. Tells are much harder to pick up in limit games because the fact that they are just putting in "one more bet" makes them harder to read. In NL, if I move all in on a bluff, you might see the vein in my neck pumping to give me away. Not the case in limit, because the fact that it is a structured game makes me less nervous and less easy to read. A bad tell in NL will destroy you. Not necessarily the case in limit. This is yet another way that limit is harder because the edge you have on weaker opponents is smaller.

[JaysonWeber 0]

Without a question, easier money is made at NL. Limit is more mentally taxing, but NL is the way to go if you just play for money online and not necessarily for the competition. You'll get people with the opinion that NL is harder on this forum as well, but I can never understand how that opinion came about. This isn't really close at all. Limit is harderWell.. I have to disagree there, more people are aware of the plays in NL, it's all over TV, People understand the bluffs, they study it, they read No-Limit Hold'Em Books... I think that Limit offers more money online because you can play more than 1,2 or 3 tables... You can play 8 if you've really got the numbers and starting hands nailed down. I feel that the easiest game to beat online is the one fewest people have knowledge in, More people have knowledge in NL than Limit (I think we can all agree on that). But furthermore, Most everyone who plays LIMIT online is used to a full table, the place to make your money is where the competition is the softest.I believe the 6-max limit tables (or propping so you're always short-handed) are the most profitable tables to play.

[Swift_Psycho 1]

Without a question, easier money is made at NL. Limit is more mentally taxing, but NL is the way to go if you just play for money online and not necessarily for the competition. You'll get people with the opinion that NL is harder on this forum as well, but I can never understand how that opinion came about. This isn't really close at all. Limit is harderWell.. I have to disagree there, more people are aware of the plays in NL, it's all over TV, People understand the bluffs, they study it, they read No-Limit Hold'Em Books... I think that Limit offers more money online because you can play more than 1,2 or 3 tables... You can play 8 if you've really got the numbers and starting hands nailed down. I feel that the easiest game to beat online is the one fewest people have knowledge in, More people have knowledge in NL than Limit (I think we can all agree on that). But furthermore, Most everyone who plays LIMIT online is used to a full table, the place to make your money is where the competition is the softest.I believe the 6-max limit tables (or propping so you're always short-handed) are the most profitable tables to play.

I really meant multi-tabling not included. I think you'd have a much easier time beating one table of NL ($1/2 blinds) out of more money than one structured limit game of $2/4.

[obs 0]

I believe the 6-max limit tables (or propping so you're always short-handed) are the most profitable tables to play.

This is without a doubt true. People have no clue how to play 6-max at the lower limits online. I'm considering moving to stars just because of their 2/4 6-max tables.

[JaysonWeber 0]

Without a question, easier money is made at NL. Limit is more mentally taxing, but NL is the way to go if you just play for money online and not necessarily for the competition. You'll get people with the opinion that NL is harder on this forum as well, but I can never understand how that opinion came about. This isn't really close at all. Limit is harderWell.. I have to disagree there, more people are aware of the plays in NL, it's all over TV, People understand the bluffs, they study it, they read No-Limit Hold'Em Books... I think that Limit offers more money online because you can play more than 1,2 or 3 tables... You can play 8 if you've really got the numbers and starting hands nailed down. I feel that the easiest game to beat online is the one fewest people have knowledge in, More people have knowledge in NL than Limit (I think we can all agree on that). But furthermore, Most everyone who plays LIMIT online is used to a full table, the place to make your money is where the competition is the softest.I believe the 6-max limit tables (or propping so you're always short-handed) are the most profitable tables to play.

I really meant multi-tabling not included. I think you'd have a much easier time beating one table of NL ($1/2 blinds) out of more money than one structured limit game of $2/4.

But you'd also need a much more substantial B/R for a 1/2 NL game than a 2/4 Limit game... Compratively speaking I really dont know how close it is, I would say yes, you can probobly earn more bb/100 in a NL game but playing 2/4 Limit and 1/2 NL isn't exactly a fair comparison.1/2 NL you need 200 to sit at so you'd be safer comparing it to a 3/6 Limit game, but even the 5/10 games online and in casinos have people sitting with 200 chips, you can check any website right now if you'd like. So lets compare it in fair terms.Beating a 1/2 NL game for 5 bb/100 = 10beating a 3/6 for 2 bb/100... = 12beating a 5/10 (just because online 200 is an average buyin at this limit) will get you... say 1.5 bb/100 and thats $15.Which would you prefer?

[Swift_Psycho 1]

But you'd also need a much more substantial B/R for a 1/2 NL game than a 2/4 Limit game... Compratively speaking I really dont know how close it is, I would say yes, you can probobly earn more bb/100 in a NL game but playing 2/4 Limit and 1/2 NL isn't exactly a fair comparison.1/2 NL you need 200 to sit at so you'd be safer comparing it to a 3/6 Limit game, but even the 5/10 games online and in casinos have people sitting with 200 chips, you can check any website right now if you'd like. So lets compare it in fair terms.Beating a 1/2 NL game for 5 bb/100 = 10beating a 3/6 for 2 bb/100... = 12beating a 5/10 (just because online 200 is an average buyin at this limit) will get you... say 1.5 bb/100 and thats $15.Which would you prefer?

I dunno about your rates. My cousin has quite an easy time playing the NL tables and can easily make 500 dollars in a 2-hour session playing $1/2 NL, occasionally $2/4 (he does multi-table NL as well though). I've actually sat next to him and watched him do it before. I suppose it matters just how good you are compared to your competition and how good your table selection is. I'm not convinced that you can't make more money playing NL $1/2 online than limit $3/6.

[JaysonWeber 0]

I dunno about your rates. My cousin has quite an easy time playing the NL tables and can easily make 500 dollars in a 2-hour session playing $1/2 NL, occasionally $2/4 (he does multi-table NL as well though). I've actually sat next to him and watched him do it before. I suppose it matters just how good you are compared to your competition and how good your table selection is. I'm not convinced that you can't make more money playing NL $1/2 online than limit $3/6.Wow? Okay... How many tables is he playing? Because... you see 75 hands on 1 NL table average an hour... So in 2 hours thats 150 hands seen. Say he's three-tabling (I dont see how you could possibly do more than three talbes on NL, I used to do it, once i brought the 4th table up it was all bad news). Thats... 450 hands in 2 hours... Your saying 500 dollars in 450 hands at 1/2? So lets make this easy, For mathmatical sake, Instead of 3 tabling for 2 hours, pretend its 1 tabling for 6 hours. Without changing the results it's the same affect.So in 6 hours he's seing 450 hands and he's winning $500 regularly? If that were the case... He's earning 250 BB in 6 hours or 41 BB/hrNow lets put it in BB/100 because thats a better way to tell your true rate while multi-tabling and playing online.He's earning 250 BB's in 450 Hands....To get this down to BB/100 (450/4.5 = BB/100) now we divide the results by the same denominator.250bb/4.5= 55.5 BB/100I'm sorry I just can't see how your Cousin is literally CRUSHING a game for 10x what most online pro's can make while doing 1 or 2 tables of NL.5.5 bb/100 on a NL table is a very nice rate to have... 10x that all the time as you stated? I just don't see it.I don't mean to be rude here at all I just want to make sure people are getting the right information when it comes to this sort of thing.

[Swift_Psycho 1]

I dunno about your rates. My cousin has quite an easy time playing the NL tables and can easily make 500 dollars in a 2-hour session playing $1/2 NL, occasionally $2/4 (he does multi-table NL as well though). I've actually sat next to him and watched him do it before. I suppose it matters just how good you are compared to your competition and how good your table selection is. I'm not convinced that you can't make more money playing NL $1/2 online than limit $3/6.Wow? Okay... How many tables is he playing? Because... you see 75 hands on 1 NL table average an hour... So in 2 hours thats 150 hands seen. Say he's three-tabling (I dont see how you could possibly do more than three talbes on NL, I used to do it, once i brought the 4th table up it was all bad news). Thats... 450 hands in 2 hours... Your saying 500 dollars in 450 hands at 1/2? So lets make this easy, For mathmatical sake, Instead of 3 tabling for 2 hours, pretend its 1 tabling for 6 hours. Without changing the results it's the same affect.So in 6 hours he's seing 450 hands and he's winning $500 regularly? If that were the case... He's earning 250 BB in 6 hours or 41 BB/hrNow lets put it in BB/100 because thats a better way to tell your true rate while multi-tabling and playing online.He's earning 250 BB's in 450 Hands....To get this down to BB/100 (450/4.5 = BB/100) now we divide the results by the same denominator.250bb/4.5= 55.5 BB/100I'm sorry I just can't see how your Cousin is literally CRUSHING a game for 10x what most online pro's can make while doing 1 or 2 tables of NL.5.5 bb/100 on a NL table is a very nice rate to have... 10x that all the time as you stated? I just don't see it.I don't mean to be rude here at all I just want to make sure people are getting the right information when it comes to this sort of thing.

Perhaps it was an exaggeration, but yes he does play 4 tables. I dunno how he does it, but he does. He hasn't even read any books on poker, I dunno how he's so good. We're asian, if that explains anything, though it probably doesn't. Often it's 2 sit & go's and 2 cash games. $500 isn't his "regular" winrate, but such a win would not be an uncommon occurance either. And he's played considerably higher limits for NL online too, but when he multi-tables he will move down (makes sense). But you are probably right, his win rate isn't quite as high as I made it out to be initially. I was definitely exaggerating a little.

[Smasharoo 0]

Perhaps it was an exaggerationPerhaps you know something about poker.Hey, I see how this works now.Tell us more about your cousin who makes half a mil a year playing 1/2 NL would you?

[Swift_Psycho 1]

Perhaps it was an exaggerationPerhaps you know something about poker.Hey, I see how this works now.Tell us more about your cousin who makes half a mil a year playing 1/2 NL would you?

He doesn't play everyday. I figured you'd answer this post and criticize it. I don't know my cousin's exact figures, or even really rough figures for that matter. Frankly, I couldn't care less if you don't believe that he's any good to begin with anyway.

[Smasharoo 0]

I figured you'd answer this post and criticize it. I don't know my cousin's exact figures, or even really rough figures for that matter.Phew, good thing you didn't post any then.

[Swift_Psycho 1]

I figured you'd answer this post and criticize it. I don't know my cousin's exact figures, or even really rough figures for that matter.Phew, good thing you didn't post any then.

Yeah, yeah, I'm only going with what I've seen in a few of his sessions over the span of the few weeks I've visited him. Like I said, I don't care at all what your opinion is on the matter.

[Smasharoo 0]

Yeah, yeah, I'm only going with what I've seen in a few of his sessions over the span of the few weeks I've visited him. Like I said, I don't care at all what your opinion is on the matter.Phew, good thing you took the high road then and didn't respond to my posts.Next.

[Swift_Psycho 1]

Yeah, yeah, I'm only going with what I've seen in a few of his sessions over the span of the few weeks I've visited him. Like I said, I don't care at all what your opinion is on the matter.Phew, good thing you took the high road then and didn't respond to my posts.Next.

[rog 0]

Limit and NL are completely different games. Limit is like writing Haikus. The form is rigid, so expressing yourslef is somewhat harder. NL is more like writing free-prose. So which do you think is harder? Conveying the beauty of a spring day in 17 sylables or...oh I dont know...let's say, writing a really good romance novel?Learning to play limit might take a bit of time and study given your background in romance novels but I hear it can be done. ;)Seriously though, everything you need to know to get started is in SSHE. If you want to switch, you should consider it required reading.The value of a bluff is greatly diminished, especially in low limit where you will get called. The semi-bluff can be your friend... plus when you back into a monster on a semi-bluff, the tilt factor is pretty frickin' cool. Slow play is useful, but not so much on the loose tables. On the loose tables you can fast play trips and usually get callers, so depending on the table you can be losing bets by slow-playing.

[Devilkin 0]

I can teach someone to consistently beat low limit NL in 7 minutes. When you can do that for limit, let me know.

All kidding aside - I'd love to hear your winning NL concept. I know you to be a strong limit player, but I hadn't realized you also did NL well.Can you expand on your basic NL playstyle a bit?ThanksDev "The student of the game"

[justblaze 0]

I can teach someone to consistently beat low limit NL in 7 minutes. When you can do that for limit, let me know.

All kidding aside - I'd love to hear your winning NL concept. I know you to be a strong limit player, but I hadn't realized you also did NL well.Can you expand on your basic NL playstyle a bit?ThanksDev "The student of the game"

wait for the nuts - go all in. micro NL in a nutshell. this thread is great."i play NL but i was thinking i could probably just railroad a 3-6 game.""ive been playing limit for 3 months and can explain the intricacies of the game to you in the following paragraph""Dude, you shud totally clean up, lolz! limit is so easy, especially if ur a l337 NL playa."

[Frills 0]

I just made the transition from NL to limit, I started playing the typical SnG's and taking a bad run from time to time.While there is more risk in NL, risk doesn't = skill. Its the subtle plays and deception over the long run that make limit more difficult. While you can hammer someone at the NL table 4 times, and then he's done, or in a tourney, all ya need is once, in limit, its a whole different ballgame, you have to beat them one way, then they might figure that out, so you have to change it up.NL you can make a ton in 1 play, limit you have to make a ton of plays for the $$$.Which one takes more skill again? Dismissed

[Random Fluke 0]

I've played a lot of limit and no limit, and I find limit to be a more complex game. I think it is undeniable that limit is certainly more a game of math than NL (both are games of math, but a lot more "pure-math" calculations go into limit). I have a feeling though that a math wiz type would probably find limit to be an easier game than NL, because NL requires things other than math in order to be successful, whereas I am pretty sure if you went 100% by the numbers and only by the numbers, a math wiz would be a winning player in most low-mid stakes limit games.

[Devilkin 0]

wait for the nuts - go all in. micro NL in a nutshell. this thread is great.

Ill assume you are being serious here. What about hands like two pair, TPTK. Are you folding them to a raise?I understand the concept of 'don't go all in, or call an all in without the nuts". Its the in between that I can use a little help with.ThanksDev

[justblaze 0]

wait for the nuts - go all in. micro NL in a nutshell. this thread is great.

Ill assume you are being serious here. What about hands like two pair, TPTK. Are you folding them to a raise?I understand the concept of 'don't go all in, or call an all in without the nuts". Its the in between that I can use a little help with.ThanksDev

at low limits (and we are talking about quarter games and below - 1/2 NL doesnt count) you dont want to get stuck into a pot with marginal hands like TPTK (unless its HU - then its a monster). The key to beating LLNL is being patient enough to wait until you have a large edge. You dont want to push small or even medium edges too hard, because you will get called down.

[mrdannyg 274]

i agree it is probably easier to teach someone how to beat extremely low limit NL than limit, but i think you are incorrect if you think it is easier to teach someone to beat mid or high limit (or skill) limit than no limit.personally, i've taught someone how to consistently beat 2-4 online and 2-5 at a casino in about 30 minutes. then again i taught him how to play NL in about a 10-minute car ride and he won our 30-person $20 tournament (i came a big 12th place btw).seriously though, i think people who consider any limit game below a good 10/20 game or higher a high skill game are deceiving themselves. this is even more true online, where multi-tabling limits like 2-4 and 3-6 could be argued to need very little skill. it does take some attributes, but calling these things skills is being a little generous. i'd bet most of the low limit multi-tablers could effectively write a bot that could play almost perfectly in their stead, saying what to do in every situation given their cards, community cards, position, poker tracker 'reads' on players, etc.and once you're talking about high limit games, NL is clearly much more skilled (again, I'm a limit player) and I would be very interested to hear arguments otherwise.cheers,daniel

[justblaze 0]

i agree it is probably easier to teach someone how to beat extremely low limit NL than limit, but i think you are incorrect if you think it is easier to teach someone to beat mid or high limit (or skill) limit than no limit.personally, i've taught someone how to consistently beat 2-4 online and 2-5 at a casino in about 30 minutes. then again i taught him how to play NL in about a 10-minute car ride and he won our 30-person $20 tournament (i came a big 12th place btw).seriously though, i think people who consider any limit game below a good 10/20 game or higher a high skill game are deceiving themselves. this is even more true online, where multi-tabling limits like 2-4 and 3-6 could be argued to need very little skill. it does take some attributes, but calling these things skills is being a little generous. i'd bet most of the low limit multi-tablers could effectively write a bot that could play almost perfectly in their stead, saying what to do in every situation given their cards, community cards, position, poker tracker 'reads' on players, etc.and once you're talking about high limit games, NL is clearly much more skilled (again, I'm a limit player) and I would be very interested to hear arguments otherwise.cheers,daniel

i dont understand how people can continue to make this statement. As for your bot statement, it has been tried. the bots were break-even at best. see 'winholdem'.