An Atheist Scientist Turns To God

[KramitDaToad 0]

You will never know how he helps unless you allow yourself to. The lord does work in mysterious ways, but not in this case. This case is pretty straightforward. You want to deny me? You want to put me to the side, take me out of the equation, take me out of your schools and put every effort into reduceing me to nothing while you go about your lives? Well, maybe for one day I won't protect your children, what you find sacred I will lift my hand and let it be destroyed right in front of you. Then, let's see who it is you turn to. Lets' see who you gather to speak to and seek comfort from. Let's see who you call for help. Yes, God works in mysterious ways, but sometimes he just hits you with a brick.

Seriously man, get help.

[jmkiser 0]

I just figured out what Christian sect Lois belongs to.I mean, c'mon, VTech = God kicking it into high gear, amirite?

[Zeatrix 0]

It would be funny if it wasn't so tragic.

[Loismustdie 0]

Your reasoning has one major glitch. In Sweden, religion and school has nothing to do with each other. In religious studies we are thought that religion is myth. Swedish school system is about as far away from "God" as you can get. Now why in the world doesn't we have school shootings? Oh yeah, it's friggin illegal to own a gun unless you have a license, which is really hard to get. This means that getting your hands on a lethal weapon is very hard, not impossible, but very very hard. I for one wouldn't know where to get a gun if I wanted to.Humans kill humans. If I really wanted to I could get a gun and seak out the most devoted Christian family in the USA (or anywhere in the world) and kill them. Are you telling me that God is allowing this? Something I learned while living in Canada was that God can't help you win a hockey game, he can only help you perform your best. I obviously don't believe this, but by that reasoning God won't intervene if I would try to kill his most loyal followers. And to conclude my logical rant, that would mean that even though you devote your life to him and do everything he asks you to, he will allow the most gruesome death to you. Hardly a God worth following.

Anyone else that follows the christian faith have any reason that God would allow such a horrible thing to happen? Anyone? Alot of criticism, but I see nobody else is willing to come up with an idea of there own. Obviously, I cannot speak for God, but it was one of the first things that I thought about, how for the most part our institutions are about anything but God, and look at them now. Nowhere else to turn but him. Or,he just doesn't care one hoot about the people at that school, and as the scriptures say,"Time and chance happens to them all." I think in this case it is much bigger than that. I think this is a case where he allowed it. For all you christians, what do you think? What's your explanation? Is,"The lord works in mysterious ways" really good enough for you? It isn't for me. Things happens for a reason, all things- now, can you at least attempt to give a reason, even if it means taking criticism for it? Are you christians on this board really aware of what God is capable of? The carnage of 2 days ago is so small compared to what will happen in the end- why is it so hard to think God is not prepared to let atrocities happen to wake his people up? The reality is this- God is both great and terrible, he can and will inflict great pain to make his points. He enslaved his own people, caused David to lose a child, etc.- he will do what it takes to save souls, and in some cases that means sacrificing other souls to do it. Why is that concept so hard to face, why the need to deny what he can do, when it comes to what he can inflict as far as punishment. If you are going to accpet God you have got to accept all of him, not just the flowers and roses that you receive on Sunday.

[Loismustdie 0]

Yeah he still sends them to hell. That is a punishment thing. Now a days however he wont turn you into a pillar of salt or send a gunman. "His plan is to bring the whole world to it's knees". I know you mean something along the lines of he wants everyone to praise what he has given but the way you phrased it is very interesting look into your beliefs.reason for this tragity. Maybe it was the devil. Maybe every single one of these people had a reason on a local level that will help more people in the long run. Hopefully it isnt because of schools not having prayer. That is not a god of love teached in the new testament. If he is so vengeful he wouldnt make so many athiest billionaires.

Of course it was the devil- but God still has power over teh devil so he ALLOWED it- the question is, why? What could possibly come from this? His plan is for everyone to bow down- the question is, now or when it is to late?

[Loismustdie 0]

Let me guess, you also blame Job for his troubles as well.

????

[DerekTah 0]

Anyone else that follows the christian faith have any reason that God would allow such a horrible thing to happen? Anyone? Alot of criticism, but I see nobody else is willing to come up with an idea of there own.

Um, lets see, because the question is how we react to evil. Do we go on our own path of evil or do we react by overcomming it. Also exactly what should of god done if he wasn't going to allow it, put up a magic shield, cure mental illness that day, exactly what would of god done by not allowing it? The reward for us is in heaven not in earth, and while on earth bad things can occur to all of us. Also so what about the good things that occured that day. People got married, people had kids, etc, you do know that life went on even as that event was occuring, for many the incident while tragic is no brick. And the reason for my Job comment is because you sound like Job friends. Job did nothing to deserve what happened to him in the story but as far as his friends were concerned he must of done something to incur god's wraith.I guess the question is what type of god do you believe in, an overlord or a god? Its clear which you believe in.

[hblask 1]

Also exactly what should of god done if he wasn't going to allow it, put up a magic shield, cure mental illness that day?

Why not?

[Zeatrix 0]

Things happens for a reason, all things- now, can you at least attempt to give a reason, even if it means taking criticism for it?

Yes you're right. Things do happen for a reason. The reson this time was that when the boys parents concieved him they either both had genes that result in mental illness or maybe mutation occured. Either way, this mental illness and the fact that he had access to a gun is the reason why this happened. Put anoher way, if the amendment to the consitution that allow citizens to carry arms never were passed this wouldn't have happened.

[DerekTah 0]

Why not?

Why stop there, I mean first lets ask for no shootings, then we will ask for things like no pediphilia, no murder, no rape, no horror.Then we ask "you know there people I don't like, can you make that I don't deal with them" after a while God is just wish fullfilment. The big problem of this is, our wishes may conflict with each other. Also I am of the belief that most of the world problems are man made so its up to us to correct them.Oh Zeatrix, do you really belief this wouldn't of occured, I mean sure maybe the man wouldn't of killed 30 people, maybe he would of just stalked someone and then stabbed them. I recall a few months ago here there was a guy who shot his wife (could of been ex-wife) and 3 other people around her, unless its a mass shootings the media doesn't care. We got to start being concerned with every case, not just the ones with a higher body count then 10.

[Loismustdie 0]

Um, lets see, because the question is how we react to evil. Do we go on our own path of evil or do we react by overcomming it. Also exactly what should of god done if he wasn't going to allow it, put up a magic shield, cure mental illness that day, exactly what would of god done by not allowing it? The reward for us is in heaven not in earth, and while on earth bad things can occur to all of us. Also so what about the good things that occured that day. People got married, people had kids, etc, you do know that life went on even as that event was occuring, for many the incident while tragic is no brick. And the reason for my Job comment is because you sound like Job friends. Job did nothing to deserve what happened to him in the story but as far as his friends were concerned he must of done something to incur god's wraith.I guess the question is what type of god do you believe in, an overlord or a god? Its clear which you believe in.

You are not answering the question. Bigger question- how many other crazies do you think God stops? How many times do you believe that you have been personally protected by God? EVERYTHING happens for a reason, right? Especially to a christian- bad things can happen to all of us, yes, but not without a deeper meaning. I sound nothing like Jobs friends, in that it was completely a different situation- Job was largely a bet between God and Satan, of course Job did nothing, but this situation doesn't apply in one bit. For many the situaion is no brick- how sad is that that you realize that and think there is nothing wrong with that. Yes, Derek, obviously some will not get anything from this, will see nothing in this situation but as a Christian you should know better. This is largely a Christian nation, why is God allowing this, and why is is so hard to think that he could when he is perfectly willing to put souls in hell which is a million times worse then any massacre ever could be?

[Loismustdie 0]

Yes you're right. Things do happen for a reason. The reson this time was that when the boys parents concieved him they either both had genes that result in mental illness or maybe mutation occured. Either way, this mental illness and the fact that he had access to a gun is the reason why this happened. Put anoher way, if the amendment to the consitution that allow citizens to carry arms never were passed this wouldn't have happened.

God could have stopped it. He chose not too. This is something for the religous in the forum, seriously, get out.

[fighter 4]

God could have stopped it. He chose not too. This is something for the religous in the forum, seriously, get out.

You dont give the free will thing alot of credit. If he plans things down to the t like you are saying then why have a hell. Somewhere long the line we have to deviate from the plan otherwise everyone is going to heaven. Unless your god plans you to go to hell which is pretty sick.

[Loismustdie 0]

You dont give the free will thing alot of credit. If he plans things down to the t like you are saying then why have a hell. Somewhere long the line we have to deviate from the plan otherwise everyone is going to heaven. Unless your god plans you to go to hell which is pretty sick.

He knows all and sees all, and protects and destroys as he sees fit. As a christian, we believe that God protects us, and to a certain extent our nation as well. This would include intervening in our behalf, occasional close calls- I almost got nailed in my car the other day, I looked up just in time to get out of the way of what would have been a horrific accident. Now, to some this is nothing, meh, whatever, but a Christian should look further, because in a Christians life, God is behind all. There is no happenstance, and when something like this happens in our nation, it is no coincidence. Our nation is on the verge of just losing touch with reality completely- how is this for a wake up call? What was the big news before this- some dude called some girls nappy headed. Doesn't mean ****, now, does it? As a nation, we have let it get to the point where the media calls the shots, tells us what is important, and look at the underlying message even now as it unfolds- this kid has completely taken the story away from the media. You want pictures? Here you go. I wonder if he knew in the time that it took for that package to get to NBC that the media would spend 80% of the coverage to place blame, when there is none? How the hell are you going to guard against this type of desire to kill, and really to tell a story? In life, nobody listened, not really, and nobody payed attention to the tortured soul he was. This guy was a senior- how the hell do you go through 3 years of colllege, pass classes and not talk to anybody? How does this happen? The problems that this situation addreses are so in your face simple, it burns inside to think that all we can do is listen as political agendas come forward and use this as a platform for gun control. This isn't about gun control, are you kidding, dude had written down fantsies of destruction with chansaws and hammers. This is about parenting, it's about looking at a kid, whaever, yours, somebody elses, and when you see them pullling away you pull them back, you reach out with love and you let them know that they are worthwile, you love them and give them what they need. This started years ago, years and years ago, this isn't somebody who snapped this kind of psychosis is grown over time. Think of the kind of person you would have if the amount of love he was shown would have been equal to the amount of disregard?

[DerekTah 0]

You are not answering the question. Bigger question- how many other crazies do you think God stops? How many times do you believe that you have been personally protected by God? EVERYTHING happens for a reason, right? Especially to a christian- bad things can happen to all of us, yes, but not without a deeper meaning. I sound nothing like Jobs friends, in that it was completely a different situation- Job was largely a bet between God and Satan, of course Job did nothing, but this situation doesn't apply in one bit. For many the situaion is no brick- how sad is that that you realize that and think there is nothing wrong with that. Yes, Derek, obviously some will not get anything from this, will see nothing in this situation but as a Christian you should know better. This is largely a Christian nation, why is God allowing this, and why is is so hard to think that he could when he is perfectly willing to put souls in hell which is a million times worse then any massacre ever could be?

To the bigger question, I don't think God stops people. If God did stop people then there would be no free will. God lets people do what they do and then judges them in the afterlife not before. I don't believe everything happens for a reason or at least not to the personal extent that I think you are putting to it. Here right now I saw a bird fly by my window, why was I made to see it, maybe because I was just looking at the same time the bird was flying it does not have to have deeper meaning.On why this occured, that may not have to do with god wanted it to occur for vengence so we will bow to him. This may change the way we treat the mentally ill, this may change the way we treat people who we think are stalking people, this will change the first reaction made on campuses to violence. With the videotapes we are going to get one of the first view of what going on with a mass gunman during the planing stage which may in the end help identify others before the fact. Already less than 2 full days later an arrest has been made stoping what could of been a copy-cat situation.There are many more reasons than "God wants us on our knees". Oh, and the Job situation holds. You just like them see someone suffering so you come up that there must be a reason they are punished and the punishment must be just in your eyes. You say the situation is different because it was a bet, how do you know its not a bet now and more importantly, how do you know the bet is not to see your reaction to injustice?

[fighter 4]

He knows all and sees all, and protects and destroys as he sees fit. As a christian, we believe that God protects us, and to a certain extent our nation as well. This would include intervening in our behalf, occasional close calls- I almost got nailed in my car the other day, I looked up just in time to get out of the way of what would have been a horrific accident. Now, to some this is nothing, meh, whatever, but a Christian should look further, because in a Christians life, God is behind all. There is no happenstance, and when something like this happens in our nation, it is no coincidence. Our nation is on the verge of just losing touch with reality completely- how is this for a wake up call? What was the big news before this- some dude called some girls nappy headed. Doesn't mean ****, now, does it? As a nation, we have let it get to the point where the media calls the shots, tells us what is important, and look at the underlying message even now as it unfolds- this kid has completely taken the story away from the media. You want pictures? Here you go. I wonder if he knew in the time that it took for that package to get to NBC that the media would spend 80% of the coverage to place blame, when there is none? How the hell are you going to guard against this type of desire to kill, and really to tell a story? In life, nobody listened, not really, and nobody payed attention to the tortured soul he was. This guy was a senior- how the hell do you go through 3 years of colllege, pass classes and not talk to anybody? How does this happen? The problems that this situation addreses are so in your face simple, it burns inside to think that all we can do is listen as political agendas come forward and use this as a platform for gun control. This isn't about gun control, are you kidding, dude had written down fantsies of destruction with chansaws and hammers. This is about parenting, it's about looking at a kid, whaever, yours, somebody elses, and when you see them pullling away you pull them back, you reach out with love and you let them know that they are worthwile, you love them and give them what they need. This started years ago, years and years ago, this isn't somebody who snapped this kind of psychosis is grown over time. Think of the kind of person you would have if the amount of love he was shown would have been equal to the amount of disregard?

Wow , that is hard to read. you raise alot of issues ill try and dissect it down into something readable. "He knows all and sees all, and protects and destroys as he sees fit."So you dont believe in free will and that he had to do this since god wanted to destroy the 33 lives for some reason(but there would be a good one no doubt). Why would god condemn a man to hell for caring out gods will to prove some point to other people? <----- that isnt a question of reason because you have given plenty of possible reasons it is a question of method. Without free will then god commended this man to go to hell. Would your god do that ? you then go on about why this might happen hinting at 1. direction of meda coverage 2. parenting practices 3. not a gun control issueThey are all good and proper and i am sure that they will all be used in everyones rational but i am interested in the method used.

[Loismustdie 0]

To the bigger question, I don't think God stops people. If God did stop people then there would be no free will. God lets people do what they do and then judges them in the afterlife not before. I don't believe everything happens for a reason or at least not to the personal extent that I think you are putting to it. Here right now I saw a bird fly by my window, why was I made to see it, maybe because I was just looking at the same time the bird was flying it does not have to have deeper meaning.On why this occured, that may not have to do with god wanted it to occur for vengence so we will bow to him. This may change the way we treat the mentally ill, this may change the way we treat people who we think are stalking people, this will change the first reaction made on campuses to violence. With the videotapes we are going to get one of the first view of what going on with a mass gunman during the planing stage which may in the end help identify others before the fact. Already less than 2 full days later an arrest has been made stoping what could of been a copy-cat situation.There are many more reasons than "God wants us on our knees". Oh, and the Job situation holds. You just like them see someone suffering so you come up that there must be a reason they are punished and the punishment must be just in your eyes. You say the situation is different because it was a bet, how do you know its not a bet now and more importantly, how do you know the bet is not to see your reaction to injustice?

There is free will and then there is his will. You are confusing the 2. Everyman wills that he go to heaven, right? Nobody wants to go to hell, right? Whe nthe judgement comes, do you think people are going to be leaping into the fire? No. It wil no longer be a choice. Just because God could choose to stop a mass murderer doens't negate free will. All it would take is a heart attack,or a blood clot inn the brain, gunmen dead. Gods will is done- I can tell you this. If there was one person who God wanted to protect, even one person who he had a connection with that would cause him to make sure that they didn't even observe that kind of pain, he would have stopped it. That is part of his job, part of his promise to us. Do you know what has happened here? You actually have attempted to take power away from God even as his power is revealed. 40,000 in a stadium on there knees, and you think that God had absolutely nothing to do with it? Open your eyes. You are wrong, and in continuing to be so willingly, you make yourself a part of the problem. There are issues at stake here- do you realize today that a decision was made against partial birth abortion? Do you realize how much that infuriates God? Why is this even a question? Why have we sunk so low that killing babies is a debate? Why do we rule against restrictuions on pornography? There is a 70% rise in available child porn online, with the average age being 12. Where are these sites located? Mostly the U.S. and Russia. This is not some problem somewhere else, it is here, and the market for it grows every year. I read an article where there is a travelling band of homosexuals going to christian colleges to protest- you think this makes God happy? This is an abomination in his eyes, and we just look the other way. I saw a show where it had to do with atht group that tries to rehab homosexuals, saw some of the success stories,and you know what I saw? Some success stories, but mostly people bitter at there own failure, putting down the succeses, calling them liars. They may be, but who knows? Young ladies are acting like young boys, sex and drugs more prevelant then ever, meanwhile parents are to busy being completely self absorbed to even caree what there kids are up to. Hell, half of the parents are getting high, too. We have taken tolerance to a new level, in that we are just indifferent to sin. God is angry, ther is no other explanation, except to say that he just doesn't care, and in that case this is just the first of many atrocities. God has been with this nation for a long time, but just like he did before he will forsake his people if they forsake him. Make no mistake, as much love as he can show, equal amounts of anger, vengeance and fury canb be unleashed our way if we continue to go down our current path.

[Loismustdie 0]

Wow , that is hard to read. you raise alot of issues ill try and dissect it down into something readable. "He knows all and sees all, and protects and destroys as he sees fit."So you dont believe in free will and that he had to do this since god wanted to destroy the 33 lives for some reason(but there would be a good one no doubt). Why would god condemn a man to hell for caring out gods will to prove some point to other people? <----- that isnt a question of reason because you have given plenty of possible reasons it is a question of method. Without free will then god commended this man to go to hell. Would your god do that ? you then go on about why this might happen hinting at 1. direction of meda coverage 2. parenting practices 3. not a gun control issueThey are all good and proper and i am sure that they will all be used in everyones rational but i am interested in the method used.

This guy wasn't acting on God's side. Let me make that clear- but God saw fit to let this happen, in that he could have stopped it. He sees the future, and decided that this was what should happen. The guy is still acting on Satans impulses, but God still has power over Satan, and if he saw fit to stop this, he could of. In essence, God saw the future, and instead of saying "I will intervene" he said,"O.K." Sometimes if you can realize that you can see the scope of it, the severity of what took place. In no way did God command him to do this- but, he let him. Do you see where I am coming from? God decided that in this moment in time, this was neccesary. Why? What is he trying to tell us?

[fighter 4]

There is free will and then there is his will.

This guy wasn't acting on God's side. but God saw fit to let this happen, in that he could have stopped it. He sees the future, and decided that this was what should happen. The guy is still acting on Satans impulses, but God still has power over Satan, and if he saw fit to stop this, he could of. In essence, God saw the future, and instead of saying "I will intervene" he said,"O.K." Sometimes if you can realize that you can see the scope of it, the severity of what took place. In no way did God command him to do this- but, he let him. Do you see where I am coming from? God decided that in this moment in time, this was neccesary. Why? What is he trying to tell us?

If this guy was acting because of free will and wasnt on god's side then how can we look for a reason behind this when it is man's will and not god's. You cant look for a reason behind an act when it isnt his act.

[Loismustdie 0]

If this guy was acting because of free will and wasnt on god's side then how can we look for a reason behind this when it is man's will and not god's. You cant look for a reason behind an act when it isnt his act.

Example: I know that to much ice cream will give my daughter a headache, or a tummy ache. She will not listen, she wants more ice cream. So, I let her have it. When she inevitably comes complaining that her tummy hurts, I tell her,"What did I tell you?" Now, in that example, who was in control of the situation? Me. I decided to let her follow her course, to teach her a lesson, but it is clear that I win that fight if I want. Much the same is this situation- God decided to let this man go through with his plan. This was a well though out plan, too. God did nothing. He stood by, and did nothing. Why? You can ask God why he doesn't act just as much you can why he does, and sometimes, the lack of action is that much more powerful, as was in this case.

[DerekTah 0]

There is free will and then there is his will. You are confusing the 2. Everyman wills that he go to heaven, right? Nobody wants to go to hell, right? Whe nthe judgement comes, do you think people are going to be leaping into the fire? No. It wil no longer be a choice. Just because God could choose to stop a mass murderer doens't negate free will. All it would take is a heart attack,or a blood clot inn the brain, gunmen dead. Gods will is done- I can tell you this. If there was one person who God wanted to protect, even one person who he had a connection with that would cause him to make sure that they didn't even observe that kind of pain, he would have stopped it. That is part of his job, part of his promise to us.

No, there was no such promise made to us, in fact quite the opposite. Jesus warns us that we will suffer at times when we are in the right and that it is expected of us to do so. While I'm not saying that we are in the right, its another to say "gunman kills 30, must be gods work so that 40,000 people will get on their knees". I don't get why god cares about 40,000 people, if God was at work the world should be on its knees not some semi-big number in only one country in a world of both believers and doubters. Since when does God care about big looking numbers.Seeing how you are so familar with god desires, what will be the sign that god is at peace with us or at least doesn't hate us as you clearly suggest.

[DerekTah 0]

Example: I know that to much ice cream will give my daughter a headache, or a tummy ache. She will not listen, she wants more ice cream. So, I let her have it. When she inevitably comes complaining that her tummy hurts, I tell her,"What did I tell you?" Now, in that example, who was in control of the situation? Me. I decided to let her follow her course, to teach her a lesson, but it is clear that I win that fight if I want. Much the same is this situation- God decided to let this man go through with his plan. This was a well though out plan, too. God did nothing. He stood by, and did nothing. Why? You can ask God why he doesn't act just as much you can why he does, and sometimes, the lack of action is that much more powerful, as was in this case.

Not quiteIn the example you give above the action causes the conseqense. You daughter ate a ice cream and it gave her a tummy ache due to a direct result of too much ice cream.In the shooter example, it is unclear which action caused the consequense. I mean which part should we change first, the pornography, the coruption in goverment, the acceptence of groups we should not accept, full acceptance of christ from non-believers, stop playing music with insturments in chruches, stop wearing makeup. Which paticular action caused the direct consequnse of 30+ die to madman?

[Zeatrix 0]

Oh Zeatrix, do you really belief this wouldn't of occured, I mean sure maybe the man wouldn't of killed 30 people, maybe he would of just stalked someone and then stabbed them. I recall a few months ago here there was a guy who shot his wife (could of been ex-wife) and 3 other people around her, unless its a mass shootings the media doesn't care. We got to start being concerned with every case, not just the ones with a higher body count then 10.

Well yes, I agree. I was oversimplifying. Of course he probably would have done something even if he didn't have access to guns. But as you say, he would probably use a knife or a bat, two weapons that are lethal but not even close to a hand gun who can deal out death at a much higher rate. My point is lives would have been saved. Maybe not all, but I'm sure the situation would have been way different. Also, if I'm faced with a psycho with a gun or a psycho with a knife/bat I'm much more likely to take action against a knife/bat man than a gunman. Also, one gunman against 4 unarmed persons are likely to "win" while one knifeman against 4 people will probably not stand a chance. Just speculating here but I think you get my point.

[Loismustdie 0]

No, there was no such promise made to us, in fact quite the opposite. Jesus warns us that we will suffer at times when we are in the right and that it is expected of us to do so. While I'm not saying that we are in the right, its another to say "gunman kills 30, must be gods work so that 40,000 people will get on their knees". I don't get why god cares about 40,000 people, if God was at work the world should be on its knees not some semi-big number in only one country in a world of both believers and doubters. Since when does God care about big looking numbers.Seeing how you are so familar with god desires, what will be the sign that god is at peace with us or at least doesn't hate us as you clearly suggest.

Who says he hates us? And, again you are wrong. We absolutely are afforded protection. What you are reffering to is persecution- now, make a case that this is persecution and you have yourself a point, except you can't do that. I would love to see you try, though. Interestingly enough, not once hae you addressed my reasons for God not being happy with the U.S. right now. You completely ignore them. Have you even thought this through, or are you still stuck on that God is love record?

[Loismustdie 0]

Not quiteIn the example you give above the action causes the conseqense. You daughter ate a ice cream and it gave her a tummy ache due to a direct result of too much ice cream.In the shooter example, it is unclear which action caused the consequense. I mean which part should we change first, the pornography, the coruption in goverment, the acceptence of groups we should not accept, full acceptance of christ from non-believers, stop playing music with insturments in chruches, stop wearing makeup. Which paticular action caused the direct consequnse of 30+ die to madman?

No, my lack of action is the cause, in that I am in control. Just like God is, of evrything.