2-5 Nl, Non-naismith Hand

[Naismith 0]

My buddy and I got in a debate with the other people in the game last night about the following hand.Hero in this hand thinks he's really good. He's really just an incredibly bad calling station that wins a lot of big pots because the other players don't pay attention and keep trying to bluff huge into him. My buddy thinks the villain is a good, TAG player. I've only played with him once, last night. He was definitely tight and if he played a pot, it was going to get big. He seemed to be pretty good and was probably unfamiliar with the other players in the group unless he's played with them in games I haven't been at.The Hero is sitting on about 800. The villain has about 700.Hero is dealt 4-5 offsuit in the BB.The BUTTON straddles for 15. SB calls. Hero calls. UTG calls. Villain makes it 45. CO calls. SB calls. Hero calls. UTG calls.Flop:10d-9h-4dChecks through.Turn:2sSB bets 50. Hero calls 50. Villain makes it 150. Folds to Hero. Hero calls.River:KdHero checks in the dark and covers his face so as to not see the board or what the villain does. Villain bets 250. Hero...?Now, aside from the obvious donked out play the rest of the way, what's the opinion of the panel on this one?EDIT: Let me save you all the trouble and time. "Har har. This was really you but you don't want to admit it. Har har."

[Snamuh 0]

Are you putting the villain on AQ here?

[Zach6668 513]

Fold preflop.I normally don't harp on PF decisions, but I really don't think it's close here.

[Sefaje 0]

lol super scare card.i just fold, unless you have a really good read that villain wasn't himself drawing AND will fold to a huge raise, it's an awful gamble. The pot after Villain's bet is 825, and the Villain has 255 behind. So if you were to put him all in for his last 255, he's getting 1330:255, or like 5.2:1 to call that much. Risking 550 to win 825 that Villain will fold anything that is beaten by the straight/flush getting 5.2:1 odds is terrible I think. Throw in the small chance that he now has a straight/flush and will absolutely NEVER fold those, and you have yourself a no-brainer fold here. I'm not sure I can see how there was an argument

[Naismith 0]

and the Villain has 255 behind.

I must've remembered the stacks wrong because the villain had 350 behind after betting 250 on the river. Soooo....add 100 to the villain's starting stack.

[mtdesmoines 3]

...what's the opinion of the panel on this one?

yeeesh

[linkwood 0]

the non allin bet on the end is a little suspect, especially if the villian knows that the hero is a calling station. why not just put the rest in. but, the villian could have thought that villian wouldn't have paid off an all in bet with such a scare card on the end, so its understandable. what didn't get there on the end? straight? check. flush? check. two pair? check. ak? check. unless the villian somehow dodged getting hit by this board, bluffed with air or some draw like 5-3 into two opponents on the turn, and is now bluffing the river for most of his stack, i just can't see how on earth you could make this call. of course if the villian has some retarded tell like with an oreo cookie or something, that always helps. in the real world though this is a fold (pf, turn, river, and i might even open farrell the flop just for the principle of the thing)

[Naismith 0]

the non allin bet on the end is a little suspect, especially if the villian knows that the hero is a calling station.

The villain in this hand might not know that the hero is a call station. The villain is new to this game, at least.Also, LOL at open-farrelling.

[Acid_Knight 2]

We're going to call the bet and assign the villain which hand that we can beat?Methinks not.Muck on the turn pretty please.EDIT: This was really you wasn't it? har har.

[Naismith 0]

Muck on the turn pretty please.

LOL. Turn is where the villain should've mucked?

[Zach6668 513]

LOL. Turn is where the villain should've mucked?

Fold preflop.I normally don't harp on PF decisions, but I really don't think it's close here.

Just sayin.

[Naismith 0]

Just sayin.

Pfft. Limit players.You're right, though. This is an obvious preflop fold.

[Acid_Knight 2]

LOL. Turn is where the villain should've mucked?

Listen, with $800 behind, the villain has $700 and I'll assume that the other stacks are probably a few hundred deep as well, I'm gonna see a flop here since I've already put in $15 and I know that it's going to be a well attended pot. Normally I'd say that you can't get into trouble with a hand like 45o since you either hit 2 pair, trips or a straight draw, or you're folding. Apparently I'm not the Hero and he can get in trouble with one pair as evidence by the action on the hand.The turn is a clear muck. It's a 5 way pot. The SB leads into the field. Even on the off chance that you had could be good here, you've got 1 person betting into 4 and you have 3 still to act behind you. The action says you're dead. Fold the turn. Preflop isn't terrible, although you dont' give up anything by folding. The turn is. If we're contemplating calling on the river, we should spend more time smoking crack and less time playing cards, it's probably better for us anyway.

[Naismith 0]

I guess I'm saying he shouldn't have called the 15 dollar straddle to begin with. Okay, here's my question. What the hell could a decent TAG villain play like this?

[Acid_Knight 2]

Okay, here's my question. What the hell could a decent TAG villain play like this?

Pocket deuces? It makes the most sense.

[Mikey Ravioli 0]

My guess is he had TT. He checked planning on check raising, but it got checked through.The next card was a blank and he was trying to build the pot to compensate for no one betting the flop.

[Naismith 0]

Pocket deuces? It makes the most sense.

While the hand was going on, the hero checked the river in the dark and the Kd hit. To this point, I didn't think there was anything unusual going on. With the way the hero played this hand, villain can't possibly bet the Kd river, right?

[Naismith 0]

Pocket deuces? It makes the most sense.

I don't think a TAG raises 2-2 from EP. At the least, I don't think this TAG does.

[Acid_Knight 2]

I don't think a TAG raises 2-2 from EP. At the least, I don't think this TAG does.

The straddle does weird things to people and I think that TAG players will play off their image and make plays like this. I was just throwing the answer out there without much more thought behind it. It's really unlikely he had 22. The thing is, even if the villain was semi-bluffing on the turn, every single draw got there. Plus, he can't even beat pocket 5s, so obviously calling here is hideously incorrect.

[Naismith 0]

My guess is he had TT. He checked planning on check raising, but it got checked through.The next card was a blank and he was trying to build the pot to compensate for no one betting the flop.

God, three straight responses. I'm such a loser.This is what I thought on the turn, but once the river hits, it no longer makes sense. Agreed?

[Acid_Knight 2]

God, three straight responses. I'm such a loser.This is what I thought on the turn, but once the river hits, it no longer makes sense. Agreed?

I don't know. Don't take offense to this, but the Hero here is obviously not a good player if he plays hands like this with any kind of regularity.That being siad, if I'm the villain, I'm still gonna bet a set on the river since the Hero checked in the dark. If he had a draw and was doing that, it seems to be a terrible idea becuase he risks having it check behind him. I think he likely has a weak made hand and makes an odd play on the river hoping to slow me down. I think a TAG villain bets TT or any set there, probably 2 pair as well like KT or T9, but those are unlikely given preflop action.

[Naismith 0]

I don't know. Don't take offense to this, but the Hero here is obviously not a good player if he plays hands like this with any kind of regularity.That being siad, if I'm the villain, I'm still gonna bet a set on the river since the Hero checked in the dark. If he had a draw and was doing that, it seems to be a terrible idea becuase he risks having it check behind him. I think he likely has a weak made hand and makes an odd play on the river hoping to slow me down. I think a TAG villain bets TT or any set there, probably 2 pair as well like KT or T9, but those are unlikely given preflop action.

I concede that point about the check in the dark. The villain doesn't know much about the hero, though. This is either his first or second time playing.My buddy said to me during the hand, "AdQd or nothing." I didn't think any hand made sense.EDIT: Also, you can call the hero a barely functional retard and I won't take offense to it.

[Acid_Knight 2]

I concede that point about the check in the dark. The villain doesn't know much about the hero, though. This is either his first or second time playing.My buddy said to me during the hand, "AdQd or nothing." I didn't think any hand made sense.EDIT: Also, you can call the hero a barely functional retard and I won't take offense to it.

So, tell me that he decided to "pay off" the villain, who turned over pocket 3s and the barely functional retard wins again with a brilliantly thought-out play that allowed him to make the maximum by letting the villain bluff off his chips.

[Naismith 0]

So, tell me that he decided to "pay off" the villain, who turned over pocket 3s and the barely functional retard wins again with a brilliantly thought-out play that allowed him to make the maximum by letting the villain bluff off his chips.

No, he called and the villain mucked.I think the presence of the BFR and the knowledge of his hand really screwed up the discussion over this hand I wanted to have. I don't see how the villain can have a really strong hand here with the way the action went down. Granted, on the turn, I thought he was strong, but as you've said in the past, AK...each hand tells a story. The ending to the villain's story makes no sense.

[Zach6668 513]

Yeah, but even if the villain's story doesn't make sense, most of the time, he STILL beats a pair of 4s.