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By calling on the turn, your hand looks weak. On the flop, you might be strong, you might have a pair or you might be drawing. On the turn, with one card to come and the villain still saying "hey, i've got a hand that I'm pretty confident is winning," your call shows weakness becuase if you had him beaten, it'd be in your best interest to use his confidence to get paid off since there are now more scare cards that can fall on the river and slow the action down.Don't change the situation and ask about deeper stacks. The stacks are not deep. If they were, the hand would be different. They're not and the way that this hand has played out, I will probably call a river push against most players with AA or KK here becuase the line that they took against me looks more like a missed draw than it does a hand that beats mine.
Firstly I appreciate the discussion with you on this hand. I had started than stopped posting in strat as I often have a different approach than the masses, and found the constant "this is the only way to play" attitude frustrating. You make a lot of valid points. I am not sure what levels you typically play (with zero bankroll management I fluctuate from 1/2,2/4,3/6 depending on my mood). At this level I often find that most people are quick to "try to define their hands". Generally a top pair hand at this level will raise the flop or if not almost always raise the turn, by calling I am trying to represent something better than tptk. Certainly a draw would often play out their hand as mine did on the flop and the turn. The river question posed to Villain is am I coming over the top on the river because I'm bluffing a busted draw, made my hand on the river or slow played a set,two pair etc. Because villain had shown weakness through out my time at the table I didn't think he was the type to call off the river shove with at best one pair. Against other people this most certainly wouldn't be the case and against most at the levels I play you are almost never going to shake someone off of an over pair. This is exactly why I often play sets, two pair etc the same way because against most I'm getting this river shove paid off.
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Because villain had shown weakness through out my time at the table I didn't think he was the type to call off the river shove with at best one pair. Against other people this most certainly wouldn't be the case and against most at the levels I play you are almost never going to shake someone off of an over pair. This is exactly why I often play sets, two pair etc the same way because against most I'm getting this river shove paid off.
I don't think a lot of people view an overpair as just one pair. Trying to get people off high pocket pairs just generally isn't a good idea. Another thing that really hasn't been mentioned is that he bet half his remaining stack on the river and had about 65% of his total stack in the middle, how many hands is he folding to your river raise with? Especially a weak/tight player.
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I don't think a lot of people view an overpair as just one pair. Trying to get people off high pocket pairs just generally isn't a good idea. Another thing that really hasn't been mentioned is that he bet half his remaining stack on the river and had about 65% of his total stack in the middle, how many hands is he folding to your river raise with? Especially a weak/tight player.
I agree...as I said sometimes I'm guilty of trying to win every pot I play. As for the second part I did take how much he put into the pot and had left behind into consideration however I strongly felt he was 90% missed draw and 10% big pair. I felt very strongly from his play at the table as well as this hand that he wasn't calling here. On an interesting side not I posted this hand in two other forums under the position of villain Ac Ad. After a number of responses I have yet to hear one person say to call the river shove with AA. This is posted on 2+2 and pocketfives. General consensus is that the AA is up against two pair or a set.
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I agree...as I said sometimes I'm guilty of trying to win every pot I play. As for the second part I did take how much he put into the pot and had left behind into consideration however I strongly felt he was 90% missed draw and 10% big pair. I felt very strongly from his play at the table as well as this hand that he wasn't calling here. On an interesting side not I posted this hand in two other forums under the position of villain Ac Ad. After a number of responses I have yet to hear one person say to call the river shove with AA. This is posted on 2+2 and pocketfives. General consensus is that the AA is up against two pair or a set.
link to thread.- Jordan
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link to thread.- Jordan
not a ton of traffic but interesting anyways http://www.pocketfives.com/F8C67AA2-B97E-4A39-937B-70683E4F48B7.aspxhttp://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=9826421&an=0&page=1#Post9826421 There is another thread with a few more replies echoing the same thing at 2+2 because I posted in the wrong spot.
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I agree you might get some opponents to fold an overpair like AA but I think the call to begin with is dumb. You shouldn't be playing pathetic hands with the thought process "I can take him off a hand". Also, OP said you might play a strong hand this exact way? May I ask why?? If anything youre giving a hand that he's missed with outs to suck out (AK,AQ,KQ) and if he has an overpair youre just giving him a chance to see more scare cards to get away from his hand (another, J,10, flush card, etc) or play cautious. A set should be popping turn or flop to make an overpair committed for river and charge him extra if he missed with overcards instead of giving him a free chance at a gutshot.This play MIGHT be OK if youre perceived as ultra tight and villian is tight as well and competent. Otherwise, if you've been making plays like this, you're just going to be seen as a LAG and villians will call you down.

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well it depends on who answers over there.there are a TON of TagFish on 2+2 it's sickening really.I personally don't like this play. Your story sucks as what hand you are trying to sell...as most ppl raise up the turn if they slowplay a flop, just calling turn really looks like a draw.River play will only work if you caught him on a 3barrel bluff, unlikely, or you were deeper.In this case, your reasoning is poor. His bet sizes aren't werid or really diff. and using that as a reason is just silly.I think good players call you down here a lot (and bad players everytime). They are getting a good price on the call and they have to put you on basically a flopped set. - Jordan

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I agree you might get some opponents to fold an overpair like AA but I think the call to begin with is dumb. You shouldn't be playing pathetic hands with the thought process "I can take him off a hand". Also, OP said you might play a strong hand this exact way? May I ask why?? If anything youre giving a hand that he's missed with outs to suck out (AK,AQ,KQ) and if he has an overpair youre just giving him a chance to see more scare cards to get away from his hand (another, J,10, flush card, etc) or play cautious. A set should be popping turn or flop to make an overpair committed for river and charge him extra if he missed with overcards instead of giving him a free chance at a gutshot.This play MIGHT be OK if youre perceived as ultra tight and villian is tight as well and competent. Otherwise, if you've been making plays like this, you're just going to be seen as a LAG and villians will call you down.
Point 1: Maybe not. If you sense that someone is weak and will only go broke with the nuts, it really doesn't matter what you hold. The fact that people think you need a better hand to bluff negates some of the point of a bluff. Plus I'm generally fairly lag preflop because I feel I'm better than average post flop. Point2: IMO is a very low limit way of looking at things. I'm not saying I always play made hands like this but to try to price people out of draws or push weaker hands out of pots lowers your ev. If I hit a set of J's here and this guy is going to regularly fire two bullets and sometimes three with a draw, the chances of him drawing out don't increase because he's the one doing the betting.
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well it depends on who answers over there.there are a TON of TagFish on 2+2 it's sickening really.I personally don't like this play. Your story sucks as what hand you are trying to sell...as most ppl raise up the turn if they slowplay a flop, just calling turn really looks like a draw.River play will only work if you caught him on a 3barrel bluff, unlikely, or you were deeper.In this case, your reasoning is poor. His bet sizes aren't werid or really diff. and using that as a reason is just silly.I think good players call you down here a lot (and bad players everytime). They are getting a good price on the call and they have to put you on basically a flopped set. - Jordan
Out of maybe fifteen responses on p5's and 2+2 the closest I've seen to anyone saying call was one person saying I should've check called a reasonable river bet but as played I need to let it go. Those opinions may very well sway as more people respond but I greatly suspect the responses on this forum would be vastly different if I had posted as villain. My reasoning may seem poor to you and I understand it if we look solely on this hand as opposed to the hands villain had played previously. As far as my reasoning being silly I suppose thats subjective, I just felt as though his best case scenario was an over pair and with the way he'd played previously he'd slow down on the turn or certainly the river and hope to get bluffed at or keep the pot smaller. I do not think that this play is always optimal or optimal at all against certain people however from my experience with this villain I felt as though he didn't have enough of a hand to call a shove and he was way weak to put me on any hand that one pair beats.I get that most people raise up the turn if they slowplayed the flop, that like c-bet has become almost to standard which is as I said why I will sometimes play flopped sets, two pair etc exactly like this.
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Kinda looks like overpairs arent good to shoves anymore. Ala Ivey vs Booth. Also, I do notice on 2+2, one pair to a river shove seems to always get the same answer. Fold, or lean towards folding. Well if you think you can do it, then I guess you should. The reason this bluff works, is becase a) most people dont shove with nothing on the river. B) its not easy calling off your stack, regardless of how high your pair is, on the river. Getting caught on something like this, would def. hurt your table image though lol.

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Kinda looks like overpairs arent good to shoves anymore. Ala Ivey vs Booth. Also, I do notice on 2+2, one pair to a river shove seems to always get the same answer. Fold, or lean towards folding. Well if you think you can do it, then I guess you should. The reason this bluff works, is becase a) most people dont shove with nothing on the river. B) its not easy calling off your stack, regardless of how high your pair is, on the river. Getting caught on something like this, would def. hurt your table image though lol.
Yeah, but here's the seriously important question.A friend and I got in a debate as to who is hotter, Jessica Alba or this girl:
I don't even think it's close, and I think Alba's really hot. This girl makes Alba look like my poker game...ugly and full of leaks. Wait, that doesn't make sense.
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Yeah, but here's the seriously important question.A friend and I got in a debate as to who is hotter, Jessica Alba or this girl:
I don't even think it's close, and I think Alba's really hot. This girl makes Alba look like my poker game...ugly and full of leaks. Wait, that doesn't make sense.
Alba AINEC. I like to spread the Alba magic to everyone in this forum.
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Point 1: Maybe not. If you sense that someone is weak and will only go broke with the nuts, it really doesn't matter what you hold. The fact that people think you need a better hand to bluff negates some of the point of a bluff. Plus I'm generally fairly lag preflop because I feel I'm better than average post flop. Point2: IMO is a very low limit way of looking at things. I'm not saying I always play made hands like this but to try to price people out of draws or push weaker hands out of pots lowers your ev. If I hit a set of J's here and this guy is going to regularly fire two bullets and sometimes three with a draw, the chances of him drawing out don't increase because he's the one doing the betting.
Very few players, even at higher limits, choose to enter the pot with any 2 cards in an attempt to bluff someone. When they do, they know a very preceise range of hands that the player has PREFLOP based on a tell and they know what flop they need to be able to take them off of their hand.you said "The fact that people think you need a better hand to bluff negates some of the point of a bluff." Your hand doesn't matter, but how you become involved in the hand and when it turns into a bluff do matter. Calling a raise preflop with a hopeless hand like Q4 suited is not a good play. If you call with a hand like 57 suited and miss the flop and feel your opponent is weak, then you can make a play to take it away. You don't do a delayed bluff where you flat call on 2 streets and then push on a fairly harmless river card, hoping that he'll laydown whatever he's bet all 3 streets with.Most players fire 1 bullet bluffs. Some will fire 2. Very few players fire 3 bullets as a bluff, and when they do the bets are rarely sized as 2/3 to 3/4 of the pot each time.
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Very few players, even at higher limits, choose to enter the pot with any 2 cards in an attempt to bluff someone. When they do, they know a very preceise range of hands that the player has PREFLOP based on a tell and they know what flop they need to be able to take them off of their hand.you said "The fact that people think you need a better hand to bluff negates some of the point of a bluff." Your hand doesn't matter, but how you become involved in the hand and when it turns into a bluff do matter. Calling a raise preflop with a hopeless hand like Q4 suited is not a good play. If you call with a hand like 57 suited and miss the flop and feel your opponent is weak, then you can make a play to take it away. You don't do a delayed bluff where you flat call on 2 streets and then push on a fairly harmless river card, hoping that he'll laydown whatever he's bet all 3 streets with.Most players fire 1 bullet bluffs. Some will fire 2. Very few players fire 3 bullets as a bluff, and when they do the bets are rarely sized as 2/3 to 3/4 of the pot each time.
I suppose most of the time this is right. However I don't feel as though Q4 is a hopeless hand. Especially with position I will call a very standard preflop raise with many garbage hands and will evalutae further on the flop. I understand that most players feel that you should only play big cards, suited connectors and pairs for set value. I have no problem calling a very small percentage of my stack in position with trash if I feel like given further info I can win a lot more. Its a lot broader a thought than this but I my father recently told me about a cah hand he played(he's not very good) where he said he raised big preflop with aces (his words "It was obvious I had aces or kings) another guy called with 2's. They got it all in on a flop with the two and my dad couldn't understand how he got that call preflop. I know this comparison is a stretch but I assume you see my point. As much as everyone has said "most slow played hands raise the turn" which is true I also find the turn to be the most popular spot to bluff. Villain very likely could hold 88 or 99 as much as AA, KK or AsKs. His flop bet is standard. Knowing the most people with bluff the turn or expose a slow played hand is generally where I expect his play to differ. The turn card here is not scary if he puts me on a top pair hand, draw or over cards with a hand like 88 he may feel by continuing to bet 2/3 of the pot he is still representing a much stronger hand and slimming down the chance of him getting bluffed out. With a hand like AsKs this turn is damn near perfect for him to fire again. As he may feel like even with top pair his bet is strong enough for me not to raise while he's still looking a ton of outs. When we get to the river if he holds a hand like 88 or AsKs he likely feels like the only way to win the pot is to up his bet. Surely with a weaker holding he figures a bet of $60 will get looked up by top pair hands but by increasing his bet size albiet marginally he'll force a lot of mediocre hands out and that surely anything that comes over the top has him beat. I don't often myself nor see others fire three bullets oop with AA or KK in a spot like this. At some point I see them slow down or try to get tricky. THis was my thinking on the turn a smaller bet with AA or KK gives me A) the chance to bluff B: the chance to over play top pair or C) him the chance to control the pot when he's not to sure what he's up against.
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Your whole lesson with the AA vs 22 makes my point for me. 22 is not hopeless. I know what implied odds are. Q4 is about as hopeless a hand as there is. The two cards do not work together and the top one can be easily dominated by your opponent's holdings. The odds of you making 2 pair, a flush or a 1 card straight are terrible and to make things worse, you don't know what your opponent holds.Unless your opponent put chips into the pot and his hand was shaking and you knew that he had a hand like ATo here, there is no reason to call this bet preflop. Even if that was the case, you RAISE preflop. You have position. If you think he's weak, you take control of the hand.You keep arguing that you made a good play here, but the fact is that you made a random and on the river, a very desperate play. In limit poker, people often wait til the more expensive street to try and bluff their opponent because the bets are bigger. In NL, delayed bluffs are not as common. Also, if you have a real hand, you raise the turn (and not wail til the river) for a number of reasons.1. You feel that your hand is best and you want to make the pot bigger so that you can make a larger bet on the river (2/3 of 250 is better than 2/3 of 100)2. If your opponent is drawing and feels that he has outs, he will call a raise on the turn and hope to draw out on the river. Once all 5 cards are out there, he can't draw to anything and can't pay you anything with a draw3. You give your opponent 2 streets where he has to make decisions and 2 streets where he can make mistakes.

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Aside from all of the other things posted in this monster thread, I just wanted to add...This feels extremely arbitrary. It doesn't seem like a hand where you had any information anywhere along the way. Unless there's something I'm missing, this comes across as one of those hands where you just decided at the beginning you were going to win, one way or the other.

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Aside from all of the other things posted in this monster thread, I just wanted to add...This feels extremely arbitrary. It doesn't seem like a hand where you had any information anywhere along the way. Unless there's something I'm missing, this comes across as one of those hands where you just decided at the beginning you were going to win, one way or the other.
That's been my problem from the start. The thread started with "Villain raises $6 to $8 preflop" and a little comment about how the Hero thinks he's weak and it all spirals down from there.
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Your whole lesson with the AA vs 22 makes my point for me. 22 is not hopeless. I know what implied odds are. Q4 is about as hopeless a hand as there is. The two cards do not work together and the top one can be easily dominated by your opponent's holdings. The odds of you making 2 pair, a flush or a 1 card straight are terrible and to make things worse, you don't know what your opponent holds.Unless your opponent put chips into the pot and his hand was shaking and you knew that he had a hand like ATo here, there is no reason to call this bet preflop. Even if that was the case, you RAISE preflop. You have position. If you think he's weak, you take control of the hand.You keep arguing that you made a good play here, but the fact is that you made a random and on the river, a very desperate play. In limit poker, people often wait til the more expensive street to try and bluff their opponent because the bets are bigger. In NL, delayed bluffs are not as common. Also, if you have a real hand, you raise the turn (and not wail til the river) for a number of reasons.1. You feel that your hand is best and you want to make the pot bigger so that you can make a larger bet on the river (2/3 of 250 is better than 2/3 of 100) h2. If your opponent is drawing and feels that he has outs, he will call a raise on the turn and hope to draw out on the river. Once all 5 cards are out there, he can't draw to anything and can't pay you anything with a draw3. You give your opponent 2 streets where he has to make decisions and 2 streets where he can make mistakes.
I am not saying that this play is optimal at all in most cases. Preflop odds of Q4 vs AA are in the realm of 22 vs AA but are certainly not the samething. I'm saying based on previous play of villain this what the correct play in this situation. What if I'm holding Qs9s and all streets play out the same? Surely we would still be debating the merits of the river shove. I find it hard to believe that playing online poker you have never called three barrells with bot pair, 2 nd pair A high etc. I think the reaction to this hand has been largely influence by knowing my cards. As posted on other forums as villain with AA here are some of the responses.89 open ended straight draw? maybe of spades since the flush+straight draw make the turn call a little more understandable than just a naked straight straight draw.other hands that the 7 would make are 57, T7 or 77, if someone was playing those as drawing hands (57, T7) I can't imagine them calling the first raise then sticking around on the turn and really not 77 for that matter.Also he could've been slow playing a set of Tens, Jacks, or Jack Ten.So in my mind it's 65% 89 of spades, 20% a set or two pair and 15% bluff. I think you would've been better to check call the river, being that your opponent has showed such a willingness to stick around. You are beat. I agree with sotti. You check call the river. You still probably lose but it only costs you the 76 (ish - whatever pot was at). He is probably str8 but could equally have the 2 pr. Cant say without knowing how he plays.If its a bluff - he's brave.You should have bet the flop much harder to find out where you are. Pot bet on the turn subsequently gets rid of the str8 deaw - unless he really likes to pay to see - in which case in the long run you will win. If he has the 2pr - you repeat step 1 of the check call on the river. easy fold. sets, 2 pr, or straight 90% of the time. If you're betting it should be a bet/fold. So yeah fold to the shove. There weren't really any missed draws except KQ so I think you can safely muck this I fold this... sucks to give up the pot but whatev... don't go broke on top pair.I probably fold.Check call any reasonable sized bet I think some not all responses to the hand posted in the same perspective on this forum would be in a simialr vain. I could 100% be wrong and perhaps the players here are much better than elsewhere
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Aside from all of the other things posted in this monster thread, I just wanted to add...This feels extremely arbitrary. It doesn't seem like a hand where you had any information anywhere along the way. Unless there's something I'm missing, this comes across as one of those hands where you just decided at the beginning you were going to win, one way or the other.
lol you are not to far off base. As I said I'm guilty at times of trying to win every pot I enter. That being said do to experience and play at this table right or wrong I though through every descision that I made and reacted in a way that I thought best.
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OKay, you posted all the responses from where you posted the hand in reverse as AA. But we don't know the villain has AA here and even if he does have AA, don't forget my #1 rule...don't try to bluff people off AA! Too many people won't fold it.So if our opponent's range is exactly QQ-AA, maybe this works. I still think it's a bad idea. But we have no idea what he has. I guarantee he's not folding JJ, TT, JT or any other set here.EDIT: For the record, I would pay you off with pretty weak holdings here since this looks more to me like you had KQ than anything else. If you'd play a set this way, you'd have my money.

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I am not saying that this play is optimal at all in most cases. Preflop odds of Q4 vs AA are in the realm of 22 vs AA but are certainly not the samething. I'm saying based on previous play of villain this what the correct play in this situation. What if I'm holding Qs9s and all streets play out the same? Surely we would still be debating the merits of the river shove. I find it hard to believe that playing online poker you have never called three barrells with bot pair, 2 nd pair A high etc. I think the reaction to this hand has been largely influence by knowing my cards.
You can't compare the preflop odds of AA vs 22 and AA vs Q4. With 22, you either hit a set or you fold. If you hit a set, you'll get paid off. You're making a small investment with a hand that can't get your into trouble. That's the reason you play small pairs and suited connectors. You call a small bet preflop, hit the flop hard or not at all and then you have easy decisions from there on out.If you're holding Qs9s, then 2 things immediately come to mind. 1: If you want to win the pot, then you'd better make a move at it on the flop or turn to get your opponent thinking that you have a big hand. 2: You actually have a draw and decent odds to chase it on all streets, therefore the river becomes a standard fold instead of a desperation push that comes out of nowhere.Calling 3 barrels or firing 3 barrels? I have called people down with remarkably weak hands, when I have a lot of information to reinforce what I'm doing. I don't call down because I think they might be bluffing. It's the same thing when I fire 3 barrels. I know that my opponent has a small pair and I know that if I fire on all 3 streets, they can't put me on AK anymore and will have to fold. Good poker players have solid evidence and reasoning for why they make any play.The reaction to this thread is TOTALLY based on knowing your cards. That's the idea. We're critiquing the hand from your point of view, so of course we know your cards.You're going to get called on the river here A LOT despite what was said in other threads on other sites because:1: Your play makes no sense. When people are curious, they call bets to satisfy their curiosity. Getting called is bad when you're bluffing. 2: He has more than half of his stack invested in the pot3: He probably has the big pair that he's representing4: He's getting pretty favorable pot odds to call
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OKay, you posted all the responses from where you posted the hand in reverse as AA. But we don't know the villain has AA here and even if he does have AA, don't forget my #1 rule...don't try to bluff people off AA! Too many people won't fold it.So if our opponent's range is exactly QQ-AA, maybe this works. I still think it's a bad idea. But we have no idea what he has. I guarantee he's not folding JJ, TT, JT or any other set here.
I posted in the other forums because that was what was discussed as worst case scenario. I did not think he had AA or KK as stated earlier this player I felt would slow down with those holdings on the turn and look to trap the same way I'd expect from a flopped set. I was very certain through the play of this villain in this hand and previous hands that he very likely had a draw or after further thought a weaker pair 88,99. This was completely player and situation dependant.
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I did not think he had AA or KK as stated earlier this player I felt would slow down with those holdings on the turn and look to trap the same way I'd expect from a flopped set.
You said at other points in this thread that he has to be worried about your hand if he has AA or KK. Now you're saying that he'd try and trap with it on the turn as if he has a strong hand like a set? That doesn't make sense.
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