Because Strat Gets No Attention...

[suicideking 0]

This is posted in strat, but I want an answer before I forget about it. I know the first thing I should have done is fold PF, but I felt like playing the hand. After the flop, could I have gotten away from the hand? I just didn't know exactly how to play it, and am lookinf for what I should have done AFTER the flop. (Sorry it's not converted either, I couldn't figure out how to use the thing...)Hand #40567683-48754 at Michigan City (No Limit Hold'em)Started at 02/Apr/07 13:50:32outdraw__me is at seat 0 with $122.05.joshan777 is at seat 1 with $210.95.POPMONSTER is at seat 2 with $197.TheRipper21 is at seat 4 with $171.85.cripson is at seat 5 with $104.The button is at seat 2.TheRipper21 posts the small blind of $1.cripson posts the big blind of $2.outdraw__me: Jh 8hjoshan777: -- --POPMONSTER: -- --TheRipper21: -- --cripson: -- --Pre-flop:outdraw__me calls. joshan777 raises to $9.POPMONSTER folds. TheRipper21 folds. cripson folds.outdraw__me calls.Flop (board: 5h 9h 7s):outdraw__me checks. joshan777 bets $21. outdraw__megoes all-in for $113.05. joshan777 calls.Turn (board: 5h 9h 7s 5c):(no action in this round)River (board: 5h 9h 7s 5c 7c):(no action in this round)Showdown:outdraw__me shows Jh 8h.outdraw__me has Jh 5h 7s 5c 7c: two pair, sevens and fives.joshan777 shows Th Tc.joshan777 has Th Tc 9h 7s 7c: two pair, tens and sevens.Hand #40567683-48754 Summary:$2 is raked from a pot of $247.10.joshan777 wins $245.10 with two pair, tens and sevens.----------------------------------------------------------------

[Jordan 1]

dude, except for pf that is incredibly standard.- Jordan

[suicideking 0]

dude, except for pf that is incredibly standard.- Jordan

Thanks Jordan. Just wondering if I should have done anything different...

[benpatt 0]

After the flop you prably played it as well as you can, with 14 outs, and more if he doesnt have 10s, you cant be that afraid to get it in with 2 to come the question is only what play adds the most fold equity, and since you were shorter pushing is prably correct... after you call preflop this hand kinda plays itself.

[Jordan 1]

Thanks Jordan. Just wondering if I should have done anything different...

oh id also be sure to have 200 on the table if im playing this hand.- Jordan

[suicideking 0]

After the flop you prably played it as well as you can, with 14 outs, and more if he doesnt have 10s, you cant be that afraid to get it in with 2 to come the question is only what play adds the most fold equity, and since you were shorter pushing is prably correct... after you call preflop this hand kinda plays itself.

Didn't I have 15 outs? 8 hearts, 3 non heart 6s, the two tens, and 2 jacks? Or am I miscounting/missing something?

[sixhands 0]

Didn't I have 15 outs? 8 hearts, 3 non heart 6s, the two tens, and 2 jacks? Or am I miscounting/missing something?

after the turn the 10s were dirty

[cwik 0]

oh id also be sure to have 200 on the table if im playing this hand.- Jordan

agreed. You don't wanna be playing junk like that unless you have deeper stacks, so you will get paid off when you hit.As for the posting, not sure why you don't think you'd get the same/better advice in the strat forum.

[DB10-2 0]

am i the only one who hates the push as a mere 55% favorite on the flop?

[linkwood 0]

am i the only one who hates the push as a mere 55% favorite on the flop?

probably. you're not pushing because you think you're a big favorite. you're pushing because you think you're probably a favorite AND you want some fold equity as well. its a classic semi-bluff. adding the potential fold-equity makes this play very +EV. the only case where i wouldn't make a play like this is when i'm playing an opponent who just won't lay down a hand like top pair. if you take away the fold equity then i agree with you and i don't like pushing here. but against most opponents the play is pretty standard.

[Iwu4u 0]

I think an open push would have been horrible but with most hands you would be up against I think the check raise would be profitable. If he has something like AK AQ you are inducing him to bluff and then once you check raise he can't possibly call with two overs. And against any big pair your gonna get called like you did but you weren't in bad shape so It doesnt matter. You played it right because leading out would have probably made an AK or AQ fold while Check raising gets the extra money they would put into the pot on a bluff and when they have a big pair the money is going in anyways because if you lead out he will raise you and if you check raise he is calling.This is my analysis I could be wrong but it makes sense to me.

[Moneyball16 0]

Maybe youd get better response in strat if you posted in the right forum. Just a thought.

[chgocubs99 0]

Maybe youd get better response in strat if you posted in the right forum. Just a thought.

Please direct me to the poor responses in this thread, because I can't find any.

[suicideking 0]

This is posted in strat, but I want an answer before I forget about it.

Maybe youd get better response in strat if you posted in the right forum. Just a thought.

Thanks for contributing exactly what I expected from general, not reading the post. It is posted in strat. I just wanted a real quick insight, like I got from most others that posted. For more in depth analysis, I assume I could check on the strat thread, as I also assume this will be deleted. Thanks for upping your post count ;)Also, you can flame me some more for putting it in the wrong section of strat. At least I caught it myself...

[navybuttons 15]

i don't think you will be able to play this hand profitably from OOP. i just can't think of a reason to call preflop except for maybe meta-game purposes or villain will allow himself to get stacked SUPER light.

[Moneyball16 0]

Please direct me to the poor responses in this thread, because I can't find any.

I wasnt saying that the advice was bad I was saying that if op didnt post a NL hand in a LHE forum he would have gotten better response in the thread that he started in strat.

[suicideking 0]

Thanks for contributing exactly what I expected from general, not reading the post. It is posted in strat. I just wanted a real quick insight, like I got from most others that posted. For more in depth analysis, I assume I could check on the strat thread, as I also assume this will be deleted. Thanks for upping your post count Also, you can flame me some more for putting it in the wrong section of strat. At least I caught it myself...

I wasnt saying that the advice was bad I was saying that if op didnt post a NL hand in a LHE forum he would have gotten better response in the thread that he started in strat.

Glad you followed my advice.

[Moneyball16 0]

Glad you followed my advice.

I wasnt flaming you I was just clarifying that no one gave you bad advice here. Im sorry about my smartass remark above. I just get defensive when I feel someone might be disrespecting our strat forums which have been very instrumental in my improvement as a player.

[nutzbuster 7]

Ummm....why do we fold hands like this pre flop again?oh yeah...because they often end up like this hand did.This guy doesn't get one more dime outta me post flop.

[DB10-2 0]

probably. you're not pushing because you think you're a big favorite. you're pushing because you think you're probably a favorite AND you want some fold equity as well. its a classic semi-bluff. adding the potential fold-equity makes this play very +EV. the only case where i wouldn't make a play like this is when i'm playing an opponent who just won't lay down a hand like top pair. if you take away the fold equity then i agree with you and i don't like pushing here. but against most opponents the play is pretty standard.

i disagree to an extent, and here's why: right or wrong, the villain made a pot-size bet on the flop. he's saying, "just in case you flopped a draw, even a big draw, it's still time to go away." with his bet, he's also saying he isn't going anywhere if you raise. there's no fold equity, at least as this particular hand played out against this particular villain. now the hero actually has to make his hand, and with a much smaller edge than i usually look for when moving in on somebody.

[Merby 3]

Fold preflop (it's no joke post here... this is the best option).If you do call preflop (I know I do sometimes...) the res of the hand is standard. Your draw, 'tis too big to fold.

[linkwood 0]

i disagree to an extent, and here's why: right or wrong, the villain made a pot-size bet on the flop. he's saying, "just in case you flopped a draw, even a big draw, it's still time to go away." with his bet, he's also saying he isn't going anywhere if you raise. there's no fold equity, at least as this particular hand played out against this particular villain. now the hero actually has to make his hand, and with a much smaller edge than i usually look for when moving in on somebody.

again, if there is no fold equity then moving in is usually the wrong play. just because the player bet the pot doesn't mean they are ready to play for stacks. he could easily have a hand like 88 or Ahxh or a9, or a number of hands that could bet the pot not as a sign of strength, but as a sign of weakness hoping the hero goes away. its very dependent on the player. its not what i would do with those hands, or what you may do. but people do it and they may fold if you put them to the test. still, i think that people use the CRAI with big draws WAY too much and its fairly easy to pick off if you know your player. personally i tend to play my big draws like made hands, that way it makes them harder to spot. i say, if you're going to CRAI with a big draw on this board then you MUST CRAI sometimes with an overpair or a set also, especially if you're up against competent opponents. if you only do it with big draws you're making it too easy for an opponent to play correctly against you, because your hands become more transparent. if you do it with made hands also then you put your opponent into a tight spot if they are sitting with this board with just a pair of jacks. of course, if the player is a bad one, someone who won't lay down a hand then it doesn't matter. just bet when you think you're ahead and fold when you're behind. in this particular hand, i do agree with you, against a competent opponent you will likely get called by 88 or better, especially if you're perceived as LAGgy, and if you're raising with j8h then its likely that you have that image. but its all read dependent.

[DB10-2 0]

again, if there is no fold equity then moving in is usually the wrong play. just because the player bet the pot doesn't mean they are ready to play for stacks...

could be, but i generally think of players who make pot-sized bets as ABC players with no creativity and an inability to fold in such spots. they make the pot sized bet to protect their hands, because in their minds, they "have something." in most instances, i think of them as obstinate old guys wearing suspenders, but that's neither here nor there--the point is, a guy who "has something" (in this case an overpair to the board) isn't laying it down for anything.i think he also had the 10h in this hand, which may or may not have figured in to his decision, though i doubt it did.