serge 904 Posted January 29, 2013 Share Posted January 29, 2013 I agree with that...And I did preface my comments by saying that the Habs should be commended for the deal that they got... I look at the Jamie Benn deal..I think PK is a much more valuable player to the Habs than the type of player Benn is....Benn got a contract which relatively speaking was like a UFA contract ..If we compare the two, is it realistic to think that if Benn was a UFA he would get 7 years and say $50 million? I doubt it... Both were RFA, same age and while Benn has had 3 solid years, I believe PK is more valuable to a team like the Habs. I understand that one is a forward and the other a dman. The Habs made out like bandits in this deal..They were responsible, and they made a statement to the NHL... Link to post Share on other sites
MapleLeafpoker 1,462 Posted January 29, 2013 Share Posted January 29, 2013 I dont like the idea of paying someone more because they are more valuable to your team. (not that I know of any way to quantify why Subban is more valuable then Benn, I think its just opinion) Will PK take a pay cut in the future if Montreal suddenly trades for Shea Weber and Ryan Suter? Im guessing not. Link to post Share on other sites
Dubey 1,035 Posted January 29, 2013 Share Posted January 29, 2013 Good for Bergevin for sticking to his guns.The new standard in the NHL has been for top young players to basically skip their second RFA contract and get a long term high dollar UFA type contract. (Benn, Doughty, Eberle, Hall). This contract means they will probably get to keep Subban for 10 years. Link to post Share on other sites
serge 904 Posted January 29, 2013 Share Posted January 29, 2013 What makes this deal really suck for PK is that after this contract if he isnt even eligible for Salary arbitration. The rule is a little murky but I think you need 4 full years of NHL service...Either way. BTW Arp I think it is very important the players worth to the team, to determine salary...For example Arbitration uses the following criteria: The player's "overall performance" including statistics in all previous seasons. Injuries, illnesses and the number of games played. The player's length of service with the team and in the NHL. The player's "overall contribution" to the team's success or failure. The player's "special qualities of leadership or public appeal." The performance and salary of any player alleged to be "comparable" to the player in the dispute. I think he has major public appeal.. Link to post Share on other sites
Fenxis 99 Posted January 29, 2013 Share Posted January 29, 2013 What makes this deal really suck for PK is that after this contract if he isnt even eligible for Salary arbitration. The rule is a little murky but I think you need 4 full years of NHL service...Either way. With the extra salary in year 2 it does pop up his qualifying number -- small victory I know... Link to post Share on other sites
digitalmonkey 929 Posted January 29, 2013 Author Share Posted January 29, 2013 Subban will be eligible for salary arbitration. I doubt it gets that far though. They can extend him come this July. This was a good deal for the Habs as a team. They did the same with Pacioretty and Price. Subban saves some escrow money by having the 2nd year higher and the first year at only $2 million. If Subban plays like everyone thinks he can then the Habs will give him his payday. Gionta, Markov and Kaberle will be off the books in 2 years (less for Kaberle). Link to post Share on other sites
MapleLeafpoker 1,462 Posted January 29, 2013 Share Posted January 29, 2013 What makes this deal really suck for PK is that after this contract if he isnt even eligible for Salary arbitration. The rule is a little murky but I think you need 4 full years of NHL service...Either way. BTW Arp I think it is very important the players worth to the team, to determine salary...For example Arbitration uses the following criteria: The player's "overall performance" including statistics in all previous seasons. Injuries, illnesses and the number of games played. The player's length of service with the team and in the NHL. The player's "overall contribution" to the team's success or failure. The player's "special qualities of leadership or public appeal." The performance and salary of any player alleged to be "comparable" to the player in the dispute. I think he has major public appeal.. When you said worth to the team, I thought you meant how much he matters to Montreal, as in, they dont have a top D, so he is the best one, so he should be paid like a #1 D. Like, if I'm Pittsburgh, do I get to pay Malkin/Crosby less than other #1 centers because one of them is not the #1 centre on his team? I agree about the special qualities or public appeal, but I dont really know how you measure that. And conversely, can we now cut Phaneuf's next contract cause Leafs fans dont like him? Link to post Share on other sites
MapleLeafpoker 1,462 Posted January 29, 2013 Share Posted January 29, 2013 If Subban plays like everyone thinks he can then the Habs will give him his payday. Bingo! If your worth, play like it. Link to post Share on other sites
serge 904 Posted January 29, 2013 Share Posted January 29, 2013 When you said worth to the team, I thought you meant how much he matters to Montreal, as in, they dont have a top D, so he is the best one, so he should be paid like a #1 D. Like, if I'm Pittsburgh, do I get to pay Malkin/Crosby less than other #1 centers because one of them is not the #1 centre on his team? I agree about the special qualities or public appeal, but I dont really know how you measure that. And conversely, can we now cut Phaneuf's next contract cause Leafs fans dont like him? Good point about Crosby....Re Phaneuf..I dont hate him like most Leaf fans...He is playing a role he shouldnt be playing. He isnt a 32 minute dman....He is being misused.. Link to post Share on other sites
MapleLeafpoker 1,462 Posted January 29, 2013 Share Posted January 29, 2013 re: phaneuf Its too bad that many times, fans dont like a player because he hasnt lived up to their expectations. And its sad that now those expectations are based on what the team is paying him. I find it ironic coming from Leafs fans at the game, since they are the ones who continue to pay the high ticket prices to a losing franchise without ever considering their own actions. Phaneuf is a good NHL player who just can't live up to some people's expectations, IMO. Link to post Share on other sites
mrdannyg 274 Posted January 30, 2013 Share Posted January 30, 2013 Wait, Subban was eligible to be offer-sheeted? The fact that they didn't means that 29 GMs decided they were happier playing by their own clubby rules than improving their teams. If I'm a team President or Board of Directors, I call the GM into my office the next day and require an explanation as to why he didn't offer sheet Subban. Link to post Share on other sites
Zach6668 513 Posted January 30, 2013 Share Posted January 30, 2013 Why does everyone always think offer sheeting someone is as simple as sending an e-mail. Subban has to want to actually agree to the offer sheet. Link to post Share on other sites
MapleLeafpoker 1,462 Posted January 30, 2013 Share Posted January 30, 2013 Wait, Subban was eligible to be offer-sheeted? The fact that they didn't means that 29 GMs decided they were happier playing by their own clubby rules than improving their teams. If I'm a team President or Board of Directors, I call the GM into my office the next day and require an explanation as to why he didn't offer sheet Subban. Name the team.....whats that, Toronto you say? Oh ok, so Toronto offered him the 5million for 5 years he wanted, and lets say Subbie decides he wants to play in his hometown and even bothers to sign it. Montreal sees the offer sheet, fakes a look of utter despair, and matches before you can say "Sakic,Vanek,Fedorov,Kesler, Weber". Toronto then gets nothing, other then Montreal having a little less cap space this year, and next. However, next year, when Jake Gardiner realizes its time for the "bridge" contract, he comes to Dave Nonis and says "hey, I got more pts then PK, and you need me, pay up sucker!!" And now the Leafs have a D at 5.5mill they should be paying about 3mill for. Following year Gardiner is having a bad season, and the owners ask Nonis "Why the hell are we paying this guy 5.5million? Your fired!" There's next to no gain from an offer sheet, so whats the point? Like Zach said, this stuff isnt anywhere near as easy as people think it is, and there is also lots to lose. (ie picks, retribution from others) Link to post Share on other sites
FCP Bob 1,312 Posted January 30, 2013 Share Posted January 30, 2013 Zach and Arp are smart this morning Link to post Share on other sites
serge 904 Posted January 30, 2013 Share Posted January 30, 2013 Name the team.....whats that, Toronto you say? Oh ok, so Toronto offered him the 5million for 5 years he wanted, and lets say Subbie decides he wants to play in his hometown and even bothers to sign it. Montreal sees the offer sheet, fakes a look of utter despair, and matches before you can say "Sakic,Vanek,Fedorov,Kesler, Weber". Toronto then gets nothing, other then Montreal having a little less cap space this year, and next. However, next year, when Jake Gardiner realizes its time for the "bridge" contract, he comes to Dave Nonis and says "hey, I got more pts then PK, and you need me, pay up sucker!!" And now the Leafs have a D at 5.5mill they should be paying about 3mill for. Following year Gardiner is having a bad season, and the owners ask Nonis "Why the hell are we paying this guy 5.5million? Your fired!" There's next to no gain from an offer sheet, so whats the point? Like Zach said, this stuff isnt anywhere near as easy as people think it is, and there is also lots to lose. (ie picks, retribution from others) Very well put when it comes to offer sheets...You are dead on.. Link to post Share on other sites
mrdannyg 274 Posted January 30, 2013 Share Posted January 30, 2013 So teams don't offer sheet because they're afraid other teams will offer sheet their players? I've heard that before, and I think it has zero value. Everything in this league is competitive, everyone is going for the best deal and the best team. To suggest that the Canadiens will be butthurt over Subban's offer sheet so they'll do it to the Leafs when Gardiner comes up is crazy - the Canadians *should* be no more likely to do it to Gardiner than the Leafs did with Subban. And yes, the player has to sign it. Which is not such a longshot, considering he is a very promising young player, and his own team is offering him absolute crap (relative to market value). Yes, his team will probably match, but the offer sheeting team has lost nothing by doing this. In our example, the Leafs would be forcing a team in their own division to tie up more cap than they want on a player - sounds like a good idea, no? The only valid point is that it will have a general inflationary effect on cap. Well, yes. That's why the players negotiated it into the CBA. By not using it, the owners are colluding. They are acting outside of their own best interests, for the general best interests of owners, and to the detriment of players, and contrary to the intention of a collectively-bargained agreement. That's nothing other than illegal collusion. Link to post Share on other sites
FCP Bob 1,312 Posted January 30, 2013 Share Posted January 30, 2013 Zach and Arp are smart this morning Link to post Share on other sites
MapleLeafpoker 1,462 Posted January 30, 2013 Share Posted January 30, 2013 Danny, my main point on Gardiner vs Subban wasnt that the Habs would then offer sheet Gardiner. I was saying that once the Leafs offer that to Subban, the Leafs now have set their own market for such a defenseman, and would then have to pay Gardiner that much, whether it was first in arbitration, or later in RFA years. Gardiner gets to argue a 20min a night D is worth 5.5million to you? Well, here I am. Link to post Share on other sites
Fenxis 99 Posted January 30, 2013 Share Posted January 30, 2013 Bottom line: for the offer sheet to work you need to overpay what the original team was going to pay -- and you lose good draft picks to boot. Short of messing with a team (if they are in cap hell) or you are desperate/Kevin Lowe there's no good reason to extend offer sheets. Link to post Share on other sites
digitalmonkey 929 Posted January 30, 2013 Author Share Posted January 30, 2013 But let's not pretend there isn't collusion Link to post Share on other sites
Zach6668 513 Posted January 30, 2013 Share Posted January 30, 2013 Tacit though. Link to post Share on other sites
Fenxis 99 Posted January 31, 2013 Share Posted January 31, 2013 Habs fans signing Ole Ole Ole when up 1-0 less than half way through the first when ultimately loosing the game 5-1 for the win. Link to post Share on other sites
digitalmonkey 929 Posted January 31, 2013 Author Share Posted January 31, 2013 Habs fans signing Ole Ole Ole when up 1-0 less than half way through the first when ultimately loosing the game 5-1 for the win. Habs fans singing Ole Ole Ole is misunderstood by many non-Habs fans. They sing it because they are having a good time. Obviously the score contributes to their mood, but I've heard them sing when the game was still tied. Link to post Share on other sites
serge 904 Posted January 31, 2013 Share Posted January 31, 2013 OLE OLE OLE is not to be mixed up with NA NA NA NA HEY HEY.. They did this against the Leafs a couple of years back and they ended up losing the game. Link to post Share on other sites
mrdannyg 274 Posted January 31, 2013 Share Posted January 31, 2013 Bottom line: for the offer sheet to work you need to overpay what the original team was going to pay -- and you lose good draft picks to boot. Short of messing with a team (if they are in cap hell) or you are desperate/Kevin Lowe there's no good reason to extend offer sheets. This is all true of course, but I would argue that a team "insulting" their player (let's face it, the players do get upset in negotiations sometime) would also be a reason. So now we have 3 reasons (well, two for anyone not named Kevin Lowe or Garth Snow), and yet, we basically never see it. Danny, my main point on Gardiner vs Subban wasnt that the Habs would then offer sheet Gardiner. I was saying that once the Leafs offer that to Subban, the Leafs now have set their own market for such a defenseman, and would then have to pay Gardiner that much, whether it was first in arbitration, or later in RFA years. Gardiner gets to argue a 20min a night D is worth 5.5million to you? Well, here I am. I disagree that the effect on the Leafs would be any more than the general effect on the league. Link to post Share on other sites
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now