Club De Hockey Canadien

[digitalmonkey 929]

I find it funny that most of the people offended at the thought the Habs might want to hire a coach who speaks French are actually Leafs fans, or non-Habs fans. If your so convinced the team is making a big mistake "hockey" wise, then let it be, and win the games.Frankly, I think what Merc said is really overlooked in all this. "I also think its more respectful".If Cunneyworth makes an attempt to learn French, and speak it to the best of his abilities with some hard work, then it shouldnt be a problem. Its a language, not a degree in astro physics. If your not smart enough to learn a language like French, you dont deserve such a prestigious job in my opinion.

This is the only post I've read from you on the matter and it seems kind of moot to me as Cunneyworth has already stated he will learn French. But that's not good enough for some. Although some of the people who have a problem with Cunneyworth because he doesn't speak French would be ok if the coach was an anglophone like Kirk Muller or Mike Babcock.

[MapleLeafpoker 1,462]

Yes, that's exactly what I'm asking you. And no I'm not too stubborn. That's a cop-out on your part and would be akin to me claiming you're not providing a reason because you don't have one.

Ok, Ill try for the millionth time to argue against you. Sorry, but based on my history with you, you will just post, post, post til I dont want to anymore, and you will not have listened to what I have to say. When I write 8 sentences, you will pick 1, and jump all over it, ignoring the rest of my post. But, Im a glutton for punishment, so here goes.I think its idiotic to suggest that anyone is saying that "hiring 1 coach who does not yet speak English could eliminate or threaten (almost) 500 years of French contributions". No one I have read, or listened to has said this one particular hire will change everything. And your just being smug and silly to suggest that they are. Or, as I said, idiotic post in what was a smart discussion til now.What people are saying is that heritage and tradition means something to a dying culture. That everything within that culture is threatened by losing things like language. That part of the culture and tradition of Montreal, and Quebec, is speaking French, and it would be nice if the PUBLIC FACE of one of the biggest instituitions of the French culture, the Montreal CanadIENS, would be able to speak in their tongue. That this is just one of the many things they fight for.

[digitalmonkey 929]

Ok, Ill try for the millionth time to argue against you. Sorry, but based on my history with you, you will just post, post, post til I dont want to anymore, and you will not have listened to what I have to say. When I write 8 sentences, you will pick 1, and jump all over it, ignoring the rest of my post. But, Im a glutton for punishment, so here goes.I think its idiotic to suggest that anyone is saying that "hiring 1 coach who does not yet speak English could eliminate or threaten (almost) 500 years of French contributions". No one I have read, or listened to has said this one particular hire will change everything. And your just being smug and silly to suggest that they are. Or, as I said, idiotic post in what was a smart discussion til now.What people are saying is that heritage and tradition means something to a dying culture. That everything within that culture is threatened by losing things like language. That part of the culture and tradition of Montreal, and Quebec, is speaking French, and it would be nice if the PUBLIC FACE of one of the biggest instituitions of the French culture, the Montreal CanadIENS, would be able to speak in their tongue. That this is just one of the many things they fight for.

My comment about Cunneyworth's inability to speak French and it's impact on the French culture was a hyperbole. I assumed that was obvious!The implication that the coach's inability to speak French would threaten the culture is ridiculous. Please, tell me how? The fact of the matter is that this argument is created by the French-speaking media and separatists.You think the coach is the "public face" of the organization? I disagree.The Montreal Canadiens are a business. If the owner of that business is ok with hiring an english-speaking coach then that is his prerogative and should be viewed as a business decision by others. I think the only ones to not view this as a business decision would be those with ulterior motives. Ontario is a bilingual province. BTW, I thought your first paragraph in your post above was disrespectful, unnecessary and a personal attack of sorts and I'm going to choose to end my participation in this discussion before my internal censoring system (limited to begin with) fails.

[Mercury69 3]

Ey, les guyz, take it easy dere.Let me put things another way: Hockey fans want a coach who can get W's in the books. Habs fans are no exception. Fact is, though, that this lack of French is being used as a political fulcrum by some, most likely a minority.Will Cunneyworth's lack of French undermine 500 years of French contribution? No. But it is perceived very publically as JUST ONE MORE THING the English are doing to undermine Quebec culture. Is it true? No, not really, but that's not the point, either.Perception is 9/10ths of the law.

[coesillian 0]

re: supreme court judge.If a francophone defends his case all the way to the supreme court of Canada and then runs into a judge who can't understand him express himself in one of the official languages of the country I think something is amiss. re: french coachAs a minority culture we have to support ourselves. One way to do so on a macro scale is by supporting local content. From a business perspective you want to hire local content at equal competence, or else you hire from abroad. If we were bringing in an anglophone coach who has a proven record in the NHL and won cups the argument for a anglophone coach would be more sensible and easier to make. To hire an unproven unexperienced anglo coach ahead of other equaly qualified and some more proven francophone coaches is clearly a missed opportunity. Cunnyworth doesn't stand out as the best available coach. We aren't further ahead with this anglo coach over available franco coaches. I think the fierce nature of the language debate is masking the fact that this just might be a bad decision by Gauthier.The influence the habs have had by giving local french content a chance is proven. Like it or not but it is harder for Quebecois to succeed outside of Quebec. Coaches like Vignault, Julien and Therien all got their first shot at coaching in the NHL through the Habs. Unfortunately they stopped using this influence at draft day. But the Desharnais story is refreshing.

[serge 904]

I find it funny that most of the people offended at the thought the Habs might want to hire a coach who speaks French are actually Leafs fans, or non-Habs fans. If your so convinced the team is making a big mistake "hockey" wise, then let it be, and win the games.Frankly, I think what Merc said is really overlooked in all this. "I also think its more respectful".If Cunneyworth makes an attempt to learn French, and speak it to the best of his abilities with some hard work, then it shouldnt be a problem. Its a language, not a degree in astro physics. If your not smart enough to learn a language like French, you dont deserve such a prestigious job in my opinion.

Not sure why you find a way to jab at Leaf fans at EVERY opportunity..I listened to a lot of talk radio today(lot of driving) and this and the Yu Darvish topic was the only thing being discussed. Has nothing to do with Leaf fans..A lot of respected people think the whole issue is pretty stupid...The way Gauthier handled this whole issue is ridicolous and pretty much consensus is that he should be fired..You have a great candidate in Kirk Muller who is more than qualified, you let him go because he doesnt think he has any chance of getting the head coaching job since he is anglo..Then you hire Randy Cunneyworth, a good candidate but lot of people agree Muller was the guy.The President of Molson has to make a public statement??C'mon man..Sure as a Leafs fan the whole issue is comical, but it has nothing to do with the Leafs.

[serge 904]

re: supreme court judge.If a francophone defends his case all the way to the supreme court of Canada and then runs into a judge who can't understand him express himself in one of the official languages of the country I think something is amiss. re: french coachAs a minority culture we have to support ourselves. One way to do so on a macro scale is by supporting local content. From a business perspective you want to hire local content at equal competence, or else you hire from abroad. If we were bringing in an anglophone coach who has a proven record in the NHL and won cups the argument for a anglophone coach would be more sensible and easier to make. To hire an unproven unexperienced anglo coach ahead of other equaly qualified and some more proven francophone coaches is clearly a missed opportunity. Cunnyworth doesn't stand out as the best available coach. We aren't further ahead with this anglo coach over available franco coaches. I think the fierce nature of the language debate is masking the fact that this just might be a bad decision by Gauthier.The influence the habs have had by giving local french content a chance is proven. Like it or not but it is harder for Quebecois to succeed outside of Quebec. Coaches like Vignault, Julien and Therien all got their first shot at coaching in the NHL through the Habs. Unfortunately they stopped using this influence at draft day. But the Desharnais story is refreshing.

While i respect your view I think your argument is weak..There are a lot of stupid people in this city that are upset with Burke that the Leafs have a big American contingent...Its just ridicolous when you are trying to win championship to handicap yourself by not including a big percentage of the player base...If you were talking about an opera,museum or a University in Montreal sure I am with you 100%, by all means have a local french presence..This is the NHL, you are trying to win championships...You are handicapping yourself by limiting your options.Also you arent in a city where you have to sell tickets...Atlanta(while they didnt openly admit) stacked their team with a lot of black players, as a big percentage of the fan base is black and they wanted to boost attendance..You dont have that issue in Montreal.

[MapleLeafpoker 1,462]

Not sure why you find a way to jab at Leaf fans at EVERY opportunity..

I don't think I do that. But if many of my posts are about the Leafs, its because I live in Toronto, and most of the people I discuss hockey with are Leafs fans. And frankly, and I know you will call me a snob, but most don't know what they are talking about when it comes to NHL hockey, but more importantly, think they are never wrong. I can live with uneducated, I cant live with ignorant. Thats my opinion.Ill assume you were listening to Toronto talk radio, where they discussed Yu and the Habs? Wouldnt most of those be Leafs fans? Again, I would say I find it funny that its such a big story in Toronto. Most of my friends are Leafs fans. I wasn't listening to talk radio, and I wasn't basing my viewpoint on twitter/facebook or any other "social" media. I was basing it on the fact that I would say out of the 10 hockey people I might have discussed this with in the last day, most were Leafs fans, and they all thought this was ridiculous and offensive. The Habs fans I talked to? Weren't nearly as offended or in an uproar. Granted I only talked to a couple, but to them, whatever, lets see what happens with Cunneyworth.

A lot of respected people think the whole issue is pretty stupid...

I dont understand what this means. Should I listen to respected people to find out what my opinion is? Did these people actually use the word "stupid"? Who are you referring to?

You have a great candidate in Kirk Muller who is more than qualified, you let him go because he doesnt think he has any chance of getting the head coaching job since he is anglo..Then you hire Randy Cunneyworth, a good candidate but lot of people agree Muller was the guy.

I think your wrong in thinking Kirk Muller was let go because he didn't speak French. Then again, I could be wrong.

[MapleLeafpoker 1,462]

If you were talking about an opera,museum or a University in Montreal sure I am with you 100%, by all means have a local french presence..This is the NHL, you are trying to win championships...You are handicapping yourself by limiting your options.

you know, I think many a time you have argued that the Leafs are more than just a business, more than just a hockey team trying to win games. The same memories you have of the Leafs, maybe many Montrealers share that kind of passion about their team, their dynasties. Just a thought.

There are a lot of stupid people in this city that are upset with Burke that the Leafs have a big American contingent...

please stop taking shots at Leaf Nation.

[digitalmonkey 929]

While i respect your view I think your argument is weak..There are a lot of stupid people in this city that are upset with Burke that the Leafs have a big American contingent...Its just ridicolous when you are trying to win championship to handicap yourself by not including a big percentage of the player base...If you were talking about an opera,museum or a University in Montreal sure I am with you 100%, by all means have a local french presence..This is the NHL, you are trying to win championships...You are handicapping yourself by limiting your options.Also you arent in a city where you have to sell tickets...Atlanta(while they didnt openly admit) stacked their team with a lot of black players, as a big percentage of the fan base is black and they wanted to boost attendance..You dont have that issue in Montreal.

I also think his argument is weak. Note: Quebec is the only province in Canada to declare itself unilingual (French only).

[MapleLeafpoker 1,462]

I'd like to point out that nowhere have I said that the Habs should only hire French speaking coaches. My only point on that matter was that as a sign of respect, the coach should try to learn. Just like the coach of the Leafs will have to deal with a larger media force, each job has it's own requirements. I feel like some of you guys see these businesses as simple win or lose hockey teams. I don't agree. I don't see this issue as black and white as some of you do.

[serge 904]

Arp,Your arguments are usually good, but you are off base IMO..Doesnt mean you are wrong..IMO you are wrong though.I was pointing out that a lot of people are in agreement that what Gautier has done is weird, unconventional and in most cases odd...Firing assistant coaches two hours before gametime, and now the whole Cunneyworth thing..This isnt the sixties where there were 6 teams in the NHL, no europeans and you could of iced( and it was) with predominantly French players...Hockey wasnt as much a global sport as it is now...You didnt have salary caps, huge salaries and player egos like you do now...You CANT compare the past to now, its just not a viable argument..Why dont the Habs just go after french Canadian free agents then? Wouldnt you find that just assinine? Refusing to sign anglo players?Curious how that would go over..Keep your french identity, but not at the expense of jeopardizing your competitive edge..Just my two cents.

[MapleLeafpoker 1,462]

Serge, reads my posts in this thread and then tell me where I am wrong. I think you misunderstood my viewpoint. or if you didn't, then point out to me where I'm wrong. I have no problem admitting it, and like I said, I very well could be off on many viewpoints.

[digitalmonkey 929]

Perhaps Molson should ask the Quebec government to lower the Habs' taxes if they would like a say as to who coaches the Habs.

[serge 904]

Serge, reads my posts in this thread and then tell me where I am wrong. I think you misunderstood my viewpoint. or if you didn't, then point out to me where I'm wrong. I have no problem admitting it, and like I said, I very well could be off on many viewpoints.

You are wrong(in my opinion ) on a few points...1. You made it seem like only Leaf fans and Habs haters are making an issue of this. Our friend Dale who is one of the biggest Habs fans I know, from what I see thinks its not right to narrow the choices of head coach to french speaking candidates.2. You used some hyberbole to belittle my argument because I used the word stupid..Sorry the word isnt highly regarded in posting circles amongst the real knowledgeable people..I was just pointing out that people like Steven Brunt, Jacques Demers amongst others thought the issue shouldnt be this huge.3. Your biggest misconception and error in your argument is Kirk Muller. Kirk Muller was not fired by the Habs..Kirk Muller left the Habs to take an AHL head coaching position in Milwaukee. He was a great coach and was credited with a lot of the success the Habs had. He knew he wasnt going to get a chance to get a head coaching job in Montreal , that is why he left. I dont know what happens behind the scenes but he obviously had this impression from Gautier. Gautier then hires Randy Cunneyworth? Thats all. We have differing opinions. This isnt a French/English debate as much as a debate about hiring the right people.

[fryer98 30]

Buccigross John Buccigross I don't get the whole Randy Cunneyworth controversy in Montreal. Barry Melrose coached in California and Florida and never learned English.

[mrdannyg 274]

Buccigross John Buccigross I don't get the whole Randy Cunneyworth controversy in Montreal. Barry Melrose coached in California and Florida and never learned English.

Heh. Radio caller this morning "I've been a hockey fan for 35 years and I just don't get this Montreal francophone thing. The only language that should be mandatory for an NHL coach is swearing."Good post up there by coesillian.

[Dubey 1,035]

The Habs are a private company whose #1 priority is proft. Gauthier, as the GM, has to have the autonomy to hire who he feels is the best fit for the business.The anglo/franco angle should be part of his decision making process, as it is clearly a relevant issue to his fans/customers. Whether he made a 'good' decision is debatable, but what I don't think is debatable, is the fact that it is HIS decision to make. Not the government of Quebec, not anyone else.I have no problem with the uproar from the fans. They have every right to be outraged, just as they have every right to dispute every trade, promotion, demotion, hiring that Gauthier makes. It's part of being a fan. I don't, however, think the government of quebec has any place making any statements or getting involved in any way.

[MapleLeafpoker 1,462]

You are wrong(in my opinion ) on a few points...1. You made it seem like only Leaf fans and Habs haters are making an issue of this. Our friend Dale who is one of the biggest Habs fans I know, from what I see thinks its not right to narrow the choices of head coach to french speaking candidates.2. You used some hyberbole to belittle my argument because I used the word stupid..Sorry the word isnt highly regarded in posting circles amongst the real knowledgeable people..I was just pointing out that people like Steven Brunt, Jacques Demers amongst others thought the issue shouldnt be this huge.3. Your biggest misconception and error in your argument is Kirk Muller. Kirk Muller was not fired by the Habs..Kirk Muller left the Habs to take an AHL head coaching position in Milwaukee. He was a great coach and was credited with a lot of the success the Habs had. He knew he wasnt going to get a chance to get a head coaching job in Montreal , that is why he left. I dont know what happens behind the scenes but he obviously had this impression from Gautier. Gautier then hires Randy Cunneyworth? Thats all. We have differing opinions. This isnt a French/English debate as much as a debate about hiring the right people.

1. Your right, its not only Leafs fans who are making an issue out of it. It wasnt my intention to infer that, I just said I found it funny that in my circles, that was the case. I cant speak at all as to who else is talking about this. Never used the term Habs haters though.2. Sorry, wasnt trying to belittle, just was pointing out that personally, I dont too often like to be swayed by those in the media. Like others, often thats all the info sources I have and so do get swayed, but I still try to not make a judgement based on just what others think, or change my own opinion if others disagree.3. Your right, we disagree on this point. BUT, I never said Kirk Muller was fired, and you+disagree on what we think happened. I think we're smart enough to know that neither one of us knows the truth.You seem to be arguing often about Gauthier. Just a note, I agree that he has made many mistakes as a GM.As for this whole argument, I think Dubey said it way better than I was able to. Excellent post.

[Mercury69 3]

Cunneyworth was a "direct" import, in that he was already familiar with the Habs' playbook and probably had a knowledge edge on the other guys. It makes sense for the short-term and probably won't be the longterm choice unless some kind of reconciliation occurs regarding the language issue.They are starting Budaj in nets against the Hawks tonight, which says to me that getting Cunneyworth his first win as a head coach may take a little longer.

[SBriand 4]

Never used the term Habs haters though.As for this whole argument, I think Dubey said it way better than I was able to. Excellent post.

Well you did say "non-Hab fans" and to serge that just automatically translates to Hab Haters. I agree with Dubey's post as well.

[mrdannyg 274]

Cunneyworth was a "direct" import, in that he was already familiar with the Habs' playbook and probably had a knowledge edge on the other guys. It makes sense for the short-term and probably won't be the longterm choice unless some kind of reconciliation occurs regarding the language issue.They are starting Budaj in nets against the Hawks tonight, which says to me that getting Cunneyworth his first win as a head coach may take a little longer.

I hope the culture minister weighs in on the important issue that the Habs starting goalie does not speak French, and that the Habs should only have French-Canadian goalies, since the Habs represent French-Canadian cultural values.

[Mercury69 3]

I hope the culture minister weighs in on the important issue that the Habs starting goalie does not speak French, and that the Habs should only have French-Canadian goalies, since the Habs represent French-Canadian cultural values.

lol...Budaj probably barely speaks English. Tonight, I hope he speaks SO.

[serge 904]

Well you did say "non-Hab fans" and to serge that just automatically translates to Hab Haters. I agree with Dubey's post as well.

My bad..In my world this is correct..Arp,Good posting...Not to beat a dead horse but:Do you guys think Randy Cunneyworth is a better candidate than Kirk Muller??From what I have read not too many people believe that he is..

[Zach6668 513]

I don't know how any of us would really be able to say any one coach is a better candidate than anyone else. I dunno, wtf do we know about what they do? I mean, I know about Bylsma NOW, but only thing I knew about him before he was hired for Pittsburgh was that he was a grinder, and I probably had his hockey cards in the 90s.