dead aces, and the wheel

[Eph2008 0]

I had a half hour argument with a friend tonight.He told me that he'd rather play A4 that A9, because of the straight possibilities and because of the value he'd get from opponents (when he does hit it) who didn't expect his wheel.I told him #1 that he shouldnt be playing dead aces in the first place (unless the table is quite shorthanded) and #2 that he was incorrect in this because the chances of hitting his wheel are negligible and even if he does catch it, not many people are going to call down his bets with a board of 2,3,5. In addition, A9 is just a plain old better hand.Whats the deal here?

[Chiggleslap 0]

I don't know... Figure it out for yourself?

[wrto4556 0]

A9s is better. You barely ever hit your wheel, but you frequently catch a pair. A pair of nines will win alot more than a pair of fours and a pair of aces will win with a nine kicker more than with a 4 kicker.You're freind is smoking the dope.Btw, I love weak suited aces....especially at loose full tables.

[Eph2008 0]

I don't know... Figure it out for yourself?

Alright, thanks. That's all I wanted to hear.There's no need for anyone else to respond to this!...??? :?

[ElToasto 0]

I think A2-A5 have more value than A6-A9. All those hands lose to a contested Ace (most of the time), but you have additional outs with the wheel aces. In a full ring game i think the A2-A5 is more playable although both sets of hands suck.

[Eph2008 0]

You're freind is smoking the dope.Btw, I love weak suited aces....especially at loose full tables.

Yeah, suited is a totally different situation.And yes, he probably is smoking the dope.

[jbecks81 0]

Reminds me of a time when I was knocked out of a tournament in my local casino. I was somewhat shortstacked and went all in with A9. I was called by A3 and the guy flopped a 3. He said he would much rather have A3 to go all in with because of the straight possibility. I laughed pretty hard about that one.

[Vade 0]

Eh...A-3 offsuit is MARGINALLY better then A-8 offsuit, but they're both crapA-3 probably gets you in less trouble and has an infintely small chance at getting a wheel straight/has never won a pot with either hand, they're both crap

[Vade 0]

OOPS double post

[spt24 0]

I think A2-A5 have more value than A6-A9. All those hands lose to a contested Ace (most of the time), but you have additional outs with the wheel aces. In a full ring game i think the A2-A5 is more playable although both sets of hands suck.

I agree, although I expect to be in the minority. If nothing else for being wrong, and/or it being my first post here...I have spent about a week watching and listening here, nice to meet you all here... even the asses, hey I have been confused before too.

[cdddc75 0]

Eh...A-3 offsuit is MARGINALLY better then A-8 offsuit, but they're both crapA-3 probably gets you in less trouble and has an infintely small chance at getting a wheel straight/has never won a pot with either hand, they're both crap

I can't even believe this conversation is happening.http://twodimes.net/h/?z=892893A8o is a 51.44% to 28.48% favorite over A3 sooooooooooted (20% chance of a chop).

[Shellesund 0]

Yeah, you must be kidding me. To even compare A4 to A9 is ridiculous. How about you and your friend get together and play 100 hands with 1 dollar in the pot every time. You will have A9, and he will have A4. He`ll be broke before he knows what happened.In fact, A9 will win the pot in over 65% of the hands.

[kung fu 0]

the only sense in which i'd prefer a2-5 is cos the str8 is far less predictable and easier to put down. and that would be in a large game, on the button against players who wouldn't pick it. and it would be mainly to switch my game up a bit. too many conditions.

[Mr Monkey 0]

Yeah, you must be kidding me. To even compare A4 to A9 is ridiculous. How about you and your friend get together and play 100 hands with 1 dollar in the pot every time. You will have A9, and he will have A4. He`ll be broke before he knows what happened.In fact, A9 will win the pot in over 65% of the hands.

Thats true if u were to put the hands head to head. But if u are in a multiway pot i prefer A4 because of the straight possibility and because u wont get in trouble with it as much. From my experiences i have won more big pots with A2-A5 then with A6-A9.

[akishore 0]

guys, not to flame, but there is some ridiculous advice on this thread.listen to wrto. he's almost quoting SSHE, and i'm guessing that miller, sklansky and malmuth know just a little bit of poker.A6-A9 has much more value than A2-A5.you will hit a wheel so infrequently that the top pair/kicker value of A6-A9 far exceeds the wheel value of A2-A5.A2-A5 is NOT better than A6-A9.aseem

[Mr Monkey 0]

guys, not to flame, but there is some ridiculous advice on this thread.listen to wrto. he's almost quoting SSHE, and i'm guessing that miller, sklansky and malmuth know just a little bit of poker.A6-A9 has much more value than A2-A5.you will hit a wheel so infrequently that the top pair/kicker value of A6-A9 far exceeds the wheel value of A2-A5.A2-A5 is NOT better than A6-A9.aseem

if i have A4 or A8 and i flop an ace in a 10 handed game and their is 2 or 3 people betting A8 isnt much better then A4, in fact it could get u into more trouble then A4. Shorthanded i like A9 better but in a full game i like A4. they both are junk but if an ace hits u are usually either ahead or beat with either hand so i like the added straight potential of A4. i dont get to heavily involved with ethier hand if their are many opponents on the flop unless i hit it good

[akishore 0]

if i have A4 or A8 and i flop an ace in a 10 handed game and their is 2 or 3 people betting A8 isnt much better then A4, in fact it could get u into more trouble then A4. Shorthanded i like A9 better but in a full game i like A4. they both are junk but if an ace hits u are usually either ahead or beat with either hand so i like the added straight potential of A4

what games do you play in??a pair of aces with nine kicker (A9) will often be good in a low limit ring game. you will win the pot much more often with A9 against people who play naked aces than you will with A4.this assumes that you have some reasonable post-flop skill, and will lay down A9 on an A82 board to a bet and a raise. that's not what this thread is about, though. it's about the simple fact that you will win more money with A9 than with A4.it's a simple fact. A9 has a higher EV than A4. it says so on pokertracker, it says so in SSHE, it says so on pokerroom's charts.aseem

[Mr Monkey 0]

u might win more with A6-A9 but i dont. it all depends on the level of competition. u can say that A9 has a higher EV and that pokerrooms charts say the same and its true but it all comes down to the people u play with. I dont like A4 much better then A9 but in the games i play in i find the A4 more profitable not by alot but it is more profitable. Playing A9 against bad low limit players would be more profitable because they play junk. so A9 is probably up against a low A

[KramitDaToad 0]

Those of you saying A2-5 has straight value have missed some fundamentals.The only straight value you get is if you flop a straight and how often is that going to happen (I'll give you a clue - its a very, very, small percentage)After that you are looking at straight draws, which will occur a lot more frequently, however any draw you flop requiring both your hole cards is going to be a gutshot. (I'll slap the first moron that tries A5 on a flop of 346 as a valid argument)To continue the hand you will need to generate odds to justify calling your 10.5 - 1 shot. This is only going to happen only in the rarest of circumstances (ie 8+ limpers) unless the preflop is raised.Anyone who is playing A2-5 in a raised pot (with the rare exception of Axs in the BB) needs to give up on poker now.To get any straight value out of these hands you are going to need to make plays that are incorrect and thus -EV. ie getting the straights will cost more than you will ever make

[tentenoffsuit 0]

After that you are looking at straight draws, which will occur a lot more frequently, however any draw you flop requiring both your hole cards is going to be a gutshot. (I'll slap the first moron that tries A5 on a flop of 346 as a valid argument)

Hmmm... looks like an 8-outter to me... which is better than a 4 outter.If i'm playing A-5 and that flop comes down, i feel good about my odds (all depending on how the pot plays out, and my position).

[GT123 0]

Usually if A6-A9o is played, it is because there wasn't a preflop raise. So if you flop an ace it is usually good,of course A6-A9 will be outkicked if you play it against a raise. But we are talking about which is better in a unraised pot I assume. So A6 to A9 is better. For A2-A5 to be more profitable because of the wheel, you would have to flop a wheel frequently, the odds of flopping a straight are very low. Other then that , you will most likely flop a gutshot straight draw( And we all know how profitable gutshot straights draws are right?:wink: )

[princeof56k 0]

For those of you that play A2-A5 because of the straight possibility, any straight you make always has a chance of losing to a bigger straight. While this is a small possibility, it may affect the way you're able to play your straight with confidence. If your playing those weak Aces, I'm assuming the pot was unraised and the blinds were allowed in. Flopping your straight with 234, 235, or 345, will probably make at least a straight draw for someone else (depending on the amount of people seeing the flop). If I were to play weak Aces (which I dont), and I flopped my straight, I would still play it strong. I was just trying to point out that just because you make you straight, doesnt mean you win the hand.Personally, I avoid these weak Aces.

[elkang 0]

Just trust the numbers... these are based on something very large # - like millions of hands. A4 is a loser to A9.EV chart ------------------------ Position --------------Cards SB BB 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 DA4 -0.27 -0.30 -0.13 -0.10 -0.15 -0.13 -0.08 -0.10 -0.10 -0.10A4 s -0.03 -0.05 0.02 0.03 0.07 0.05 0.18 0.03 0.16 0.08A9 -0.22 -0.19 -0.08 -0.11 -0.13 -0.07 -0.09 -0.12 -0.10 -0.03A9 s 0.16 0.05 0.23 0.07 0.13 0.12 0.20 0.19 0.19 0.19

[bourbenz 0]

Yeah, you must be kidding me. To even compare A4 to A9 is ridiculous. How about you and your friend get together and play 100 hands with 1 dollar in the pot every time. You will have A9, and he will have A4. He`ll be broke before he knows what happened.In fact, A9 will win the pot in over 65% of the hands.

I'm pretty sure they aren't talking about running these hands heads up they are talking about against other hands.

[justblaze 0]

u might win more with A6-A9 but i dont. it all depends on the level of competition. u can say that A9 has a higher EV and that pokerrooms charts say the same and its true but it all comes down to the people u play with. I dont like A4 much better then A9 but in the games i play in i find the A4 more profitable not by alot but it is more profitable. Playing A9 against bad low limit players would be more profitable because they play junk. so A9 is probably up against a low A

no, no it doesnt. it all comes down to the mathematical principles inherent in the game.