What Was The Correct Ruling Here?

[quadaces 0]

I don't like the fact that the casino forced you to give chips back. I believe that if the hand is over, cards are reshuffled, you already stacked the chips, and another hand has been dealt, that's it. The money is yours at that point. I mean, you were fully in your right after the hand to get up and walk away with your money. Could the casino then come for you after you have left the table with the money that was pushed toward you and demand you give it back. What if you got to your car? How far does it go?If the casino really believed that they made a mistake, then they should be responsible for giving the guy his money back. It shouldn't come from you long after the hand is over because, for all intents and purposes, that is your money at that point.It should be like hockey. Once the puck is dropped and the next play has begun, the ruling for the previous play is final.

I totally agree. Once the pot has been shoved to another player and the cards are being shuffled the hand is over. You should have kept the pot. Now if they want to go back and check the tape and see that the DEALER made a mistake then the CASINO should be giving the other guy the amount of that pot out of thier pocket not yours.

[Startled 0]

i thought this was going to be easy, but i re-read it.it depends on whether or not he "tabled the winning hand". i hope this doesn't turn into a 5 page semantics thread.if he tabled the winning hand he wins.

It seems to have been adequately-enough tabled that the cameras could see it. That should do it. I'm surprised the casino went to the tape, though. It must have been a slow day in surveillance.

[Pot Odds RAC 23]

This is pretty funny because a few months ago when I posted a thread where I realized that I had been incorrectly awarded a fairly large pot and shipped it to the player who had already gone to the cage to reload - many felt that I was stupid for being honest.

[A_Bullets_A 0]

This is pretty funny because a few months ago when I posted a thread where I realized that I had been incorrectly awarded a fairly large pot and shipped it to the player who had already gone to the cage to reload - many felt that I was stupid for being honest.

You did the right thing. Good for you. I wish there were more people like this around.

[HubDub04 0]

Ok to clear a few things up....-This was a crazy loose aggro table and a $75 preflop raise with 5 guys who limped in was pretty much standard and assured me at least one call.-The guy who called with J7 is this rich guy who plays there all the time and plays any 2 for any amount of $(i knew this and pretty much raised that much for him to call with rags)-The floor DID check the cameras and thats how they declared he had the straight.-The dealer, villian, and myself did not see the straight until I looked at his cards one more time face up but I didn't say anything because I feel that it is his responsibility to declare his own hand and if he concedes the hand, which he basically did by his table talk, then i'm not going to argue. It has nothing to do with my integrity, but as a poker player, there are no teams, and you have to be responsible for your OWN actions and hand readings every hand. If I misread my hand, which I never do, I would let the guy keep the pot because it was my mistake on not seeing what type of hand I really had on the river. The dealer raked the pot to me and nothing would have ever been said about this hand if the one player in the 1 seat hadn't noticed at the last second.

[mx957 0]

If you are so confident in yourself and the treatment on the hand, then why did you ask the original question? Seems like your wanting some validation or a pat on the back?

[psujohn 0]

It has nothing to do with my integrity, but as a poker player, there are no teams, and you have to be responsible for your OWN actions and hand readings every hand.

That's simply not true. The rules (at least the most commonly followed rules at every cardroom I've ever heard of) are that "cards speak" and a properly tabled hand will be read by the dealer regardless of what the player declares. The opposite to your situation also applies. If I table my hand and say "straight flush" the dealer will read it as A-high and push you the pot.

[HubDub04 0]

If you are so confident in yourself and the treatment on the hand, then why did you ask the original question? Seems like your wanting some validation or a pat on the back?

No, the only reason I posted it on here, was because there was some confusion at the casino by the rest of the table, the dealer, and the floor on what the correct ruling was here. I don't care either way now, i've already given the guy the money back. I just wanted to see if this was done correctly. Thats all.

[HubDub04 0]

That's simply not true. The rules (at least the most commonly followed rules at every cardroom I've ever heard of) are that "cards speak" and a properly tabled hand will be read by the dealer regardless of what the player declares. The opposite to your situation also applies. If I table my hand and say "straight flush" the dealer will read it as A-high and push you the pot.

I understand what you are saying, but I think you missed what I was trying to say by my OP.I am saying that it is not my responsibility to declare the other persons hand if he misreads it. One of the other posters in this thread said it was my responsibility to let him know he had the straight.

[psujohn 0]

I understand what you are saying, but I think you missed what I was trying to say by my OP.I am saying that it is not my responsibility to declare the other persons hand if he misreads it. One of the other posters in this thread said it was my responsibility to let him know he had the straight.

Right. It's the dealer's responsibility to declare the other person's hand. And in the interest of integrity of the game it is commonly held that players should seek to correct dealer errors when they notice them. Whether the error is in your favor or not.

[Whiter Sr 0]

Ok to clear a few things up....-This was a crazy loose aggro table and a $75 preflop raise with 5 guys who limped in was pretty much standard and assured me at least one call. This was from your original post. ("Ok, so today i'm playing in my normal 3-5 NL game at Potowatomi in Milwaukee and I get involved in this weird incident. I get dealt AA UTG and raise to $75 and get called by villian in position.")-The guy who called with J7 is this rich guy who plays there all the time and plays any 2 for any amount of $(i knew this and pretty much raised that much for him to call with rags)-The floor DID check the cameras and thats how they declared he had the straight.-The dealer, villian, and myself did not see the straight until I looked at his cards one more time face up but I didn't say anything because I feel that it is his responsibility to declare his own hand and if he concedes the hand, which he basically did by his table talk, then i'm not going to argue. It has nothing to do with my integrity, but as a poker player, there are no teams, and you have to be responsible for your OWN actions and hand readings every hand. If I misread my hand, which I never do, I would let the guy keep the pot because it was my mistake on not seeing what type of hand I really had on the river. The dealer raked the pot to me and nothing would have ever been said about this hand if the one player in the 1 seat hadn't noticed at the last second.

Now how do you get 5 limpers in the pot before your $75 raise when you are under the gun?

[seemorenuts 0]

The hand was completely botched by the casino.When I was playing in redhotpokertour.com, one of the dealers always carried a set of printed WSOP rules.Mind you, of course rules vary from casino to casino, but the logic should be the same.Even if you put your cards onto the table face up and verbalize the nature of your winning hand, AND ittouches even a shred of the muck, it's A DEAD HAND AND YOU LOSE THE HAND, PERIOD--according to WSOP rules.I've had CASINORAMA botch about 5-6 hands in analogous ways, so I refuse to piss my money away in b&m casinos any longer.When I was playing in the WPT $600 and $1200 satellites (I repeat, anything associated with the WPT (though lower cost satellites are just donkaments) provides fantastic quality, blinds structure with 30 minutes, great refereeing, value; just as Daniel said earlier re Niagara Fallsview, Nov. 2006), I had gone all in consecutively successfully 7 times and altogether I had eliminated 9 out of 20 players in a two table SNG. It was a fun night, quad aces, aces full of kings, I never enjoyed myself so much, even though I finished out of the money.My 8th consecutive all in was with QTo (ha ha, I say this for the first time--it was the worst hand of all the all ins, usually I had a pair, AK or AT; only once did I have 62o or 94o) and I mistakenly thought I had taken the pot after all had folded but the BB didn't act yet. I 'threw' my cards face down about six to nine inches in front of my chips thinking the pot was coming my way. I was in seat 6 out of 10, the BB was in seat 1. The dealer immediately mucked my hand, within 1 second--then the BB piped up, 'his chips play, I didn't act yet, I'm all in!'Well, the supervisor, the dealer, and the BB were right. Fortunately I had 17K and he had about 4K in chips.I learned something that day. I didn't say fold, it was close enough to me that I could have regained control of my cards if I were quick enough, BUT the ruling is that any forward motion of your cards or your hands can be sufficient to declare your hand dead!The BB was pretty nice about it, he showed me AA. Lol. I'm still live. He could have been mean and put me on worse tilt.I didn't tilt, he eventually busted me with AQo vs A9o when I got shortstacked with 5 players left, 3 got paid.So I was gracious. WHAT I SHOULD HAVE DONE WAS ASK FOR THE COMMUNITY CARDS TO BE TABLED, I COULD HAVE STILL CHOPPED WITH ANY OF 4 ROYAL FLUSHES!!!!!!!! PLUS 18 OTHER STRAIGHT FLUSHES!!!! PLUS MANY FLUSHES AND STRAIGHTS... ARRRRRRRRRRRRRRGH!!!! I blew it, I could have played the board. So this rule is unclear to me, may I play the board or is it a fold? Lol, you are folded but your chips play... that's a funny one.Play rakefree online poker or quit. Don't patronize b&m Casinos, it's like a swirling toilet, where your money is the crap...Slowly but surely over a lifetime, they make too much money from you.

[SonnyBarger 0]

Take it like a man? Ok, next time someone concedes a hand to me i'll just ship the pot back to him so he can buy a book that tells him what hands beat AA. I'm not saying I got screwed. I'm simply asking if this was done correctly. Why is it MY responsibility to say something about a player who misread his hand. Stay out of this thread if you feel the need to be a total ******.

Oh, relax. Regardless of what he said, he tabled the winning hand and the floor made the right decision. But beyond that. he called a 15x preflop raise with J7s and then had no idea what he had. You'll get your money back from him eventually.

[Skittles 0]

The hand was completely botched by the casino.When I was playing in redhotpokertour.com, one of the dealers always carried a set of printed WSOP rules.Mind you, of course rules vary from casino to casino, but the logic should be the same.Even if you put your cards onto the table face up and verbalize the nature of your winning hand, AND ittouches even a shred of the muck, it's A DEAD HAND AND YOU LOSE THE HAND, PERIOD--according to WSOP rules.I've had CASINORAMA botch about 5-6 hands in analogous ways, so I refuse to piss my money away in b&m casinos any longer.When I was playing in the WPT $600 and $1200 satellites (I repeat, anything associated with the WPT (though lower cost satellites are just donkaments) provides fantastic quality, blinds structure with 30 minutes, great refereeing, value; just as Daniel said earlier re Niagara Fallsview, Nov. 2006), I had gone all in consecutively successfully 7 times and altogether I had eliminated 9 out of 20 players in a two table SNG. It was a fun night, quad aces, aces full of kings, I never enjoyed myself so much, even though I finished out of the money.My 8th consecutive all in was with QTo (ha ha, I say this for the first time--it was the worst hand of all the all ins, usually I had a pair, AK or AT; only once did I have 62o or 94o) and I mistakenly thought I had taken the pot after all had folded but the BB didn't act yet. I 'threw' my cards face down about six to nine inches in front of my chips thinking the pot was coming my way. I was in seat 6 out of 10, the BB was in seat 1. The dealer immediately mucked my hand, within 1 second--then the BB piped up, 'his chips play, I didn't act yet, I'm all in!'Well, the supervisor, the dealer, and the BB were right. Fortunately I had 17K and he had about 4K in chips.I learned something that day. I didn't say fold, it was close enough to me that I could have regained control of my cards if I were quick enough, BUT the ruling is that any forward motion of your cards or your hands can be sufficient to declare your hand dead!The BB was pretty nice about it, he showed me AA. Lol. I'm still live. He could have been mean and put me on worse tilt.I didn't tilt, he eventually busted me with AQo vs A9o when I got shortstacked with 5 players left, 3 got paid.So I was gracious. WHAT I SHOULD HAVE DONE WAS ASK FOR THE COMMUNITY CARDS TO BE TABLED, I COULD HAVE STILL CHOPPED WITH ANY OF 4 ROYAL FLUSHES!!!!!!!! PLUS 18 OTHER STRAIGHT FLUSHES!!!! PLUS MANY FLUSHES AND STRAIGHTS... ARRRRRRRRRRRRRRGH!!!! I blew it, I could have played the board. So this rule is unclear to me, may I play the board or is it a fold? Lol, you are folded but your chips play... that's a funny one.Play rakefree online poker or quit. Don't patronize b&m Casinos, it's like a swirling toilet, where your money is the crap...Slowly but surely over a lifetime, they make too much money from you.

You need to show two cards to win the hand even if the board plays methinks.

[Skittles 0]

-The dealer, villian, and myself did not see the straight until I looked at his cards one more time face up but I didn't say anything because I feel that it is his responsibility to declare his own hand and if he concedes the hand, which he basically did by his table talk, then i'm not going to argue. It has nothing to do with my integrity, but as a poker player, there are no teams, and you have to be responsible for your OWN actions and hand readings every hand. If I misread my hand, which I never do, I would let the guy keep the pot because it was my mistake on not seeing what type of hand I really had on the river. The dealer raked the pot to me and nothing would have ever been said about this hand if the one player in the 1 seat hadn't noticed at the last second.

If he never said the words I fold before turning up his hand, then it's a tabled hand and cards speak. The dealer now has the responsibility to make the correct decision -- s/he did not. Despite being a '****' move, it is also any player at the table's responsibility to point out dealer error, but not player error. Another issue, which apparently I misread before (I thought you said hands had passed) is the timeliness of the objection. Despite another shuffle beginning, another hand wasn't played, so I really don't think there should've been another ruling. If the objection wasn't raised in a timely fashion though, I would've said the result is binding at that point. It definitely sucks, but with players in the game like that, I think you'll have more money coming in quite soon.

[David_Nicoson 1]

Right. It's the dealer's responsibility to declare the other person's hand. And in the interest of integrity of the game it is commonly held that players should seek to correct dealer errors when they notice them. Whether the error is in your favor or not.

I agree.

3. Any player, dealer, or floorperson who sees an incorrect amount of chips put into the pot, or an error about to be made in awarding a pot, has an ethical obligation to point out the error. Please help keep mistakes of this nature to a minimum.

[blacktie31 0]

I'd always try to play a guy like that straight, you'll make more off him in the long run if he's just there to blow off money for fun.

[SonnyBarger 0]

My 8th consecutive all in was with QTo (ha ha, I say this for the first time--it was the worst hand of all the all ins, usually I had a pair, AK or AT; only once did I have 62o or 94o) and I mistakenly thought I had taken the pot after all had folded but the BB didn't act yet. I 'threw' my cards face down about six to nine inches in front of my chips thinking the pot was coming my way. I was in seat 6 out of 10, the BB was in seat 1. The dealer immediately mucked my hand, within 1 second--then the BB piped up, 'his chips play, I didn't act yet, I'm all in!'

A similar thing happened at the PCA. Folded to the cutoff in the 9 seat, who pushes all-in. 1 seat immediately says "I call" and both blinds toss in their cards. Problem is, the guy in the 9 seat never heard the call from the 1 seat, thinks everyone has folded and rifles his cards into the muck. Dealer calls the floor. The 9 seat's cards are deep in the muck and can't be retrieved. Floor rules that the action stands. 1 seat wins the pot, has the 9 covered, the 9 is out.Nice way to bust out of a WPT event.

[13CARDS 0]

The hand was completely botched by the casino.When I was playing in redhotpokertour.com, one of the dealers always carried a set of printed WSOP rules.Mind you, of course rules vary from casino to casino, but the logic should be the same.Even if you put your cards onto the table face up and verbalize the nature of your winning hand, AND ittouches even a shred of the muck, it's A DEAD HAND AND YOU LOSE THE HAND, PERIOD--according to WSOP rules.I've had CASINORAMA botch about 5-6 hands in analogous ways, so I refuse to piss my money away in b&m casinos any longer.When I was playing in the WPT $600 and $1200 satellites (I repeat, anything associated with the WPT (though lower cost satellites are just donkaments) provides fantastic quality, blinds structure with 30 minutes, great refereeing, value; just as Daniel said earlier re Niagara Fallsview, Nov. 2006), I had gone all in consecutively successfully 7 times and altogether I had eliminated 9 out of 20 players in a two table SNG. It was a fun night, quad aces, aces full of kings, I never enjoyed myself so much, even though I finished out of the money.My 8th consecutive all in was with QTo (ha ha, I say this for the first time--it was the worst hand of all the all ins, usually I had a pair, AK or AT; only once did I have 62o or 94o) and I mistakenly thought I had taken the pot after all had folded but the BB didn't act yet. I 'threw' my cards face down about six to nine inches in front of my chips thinking the pot was coming my way. I was in seat 6 out of 10, the BB was in seat 1. The dealer immediately mucked my hand, within 1 second--then the BB piped up, 'his chips play, I didn't act yet, I'm all in!'Well, the supervisor, the dealer, and the BB were right. Fortunately I had 17K and he had about 4K in chips.I learned something that day. I didn't say fold, it was close enough to me that I could have regained control of my cards if I were quick enough, BUT the ruling is that any forward motion of your cards or your hands can be sufficient to declare your hand dead!The BB was pretty nice about it, he showed me AA. Lol. I'm still live. He could have been mean and put me on worse tilt.I didn't tilt, he eventually busted me with AQo vs A9o when I got shortstacked with 5 players left, 3 got paid.So I was gracious. WHAT I SHOULD HAVE DONE WAS ASK FOR THE COMMUNITY CARDS TO BE TABLED, I COULD HAVE STILL CHOPPED WITH ANY OF 4 ROYAL FLUSHES!!!!!!!! PLUS 18 OTHER STRAIGHT FLUSHES!!!! PLUS MANY FLUSHES AND STRAIGHTS... ARRRRRRRRRRRRRRGH!!!! I blew it, I could have played the board. So this rule is unclear to me, may I play the board or is it a fold? Lol, you are folded but your chips play... that's a funny one.Play rakefree online poker or quit. Don't patronize b&m Casinos, it's like a swirling toilet, where your money is the crap...Slowly but surely over a lifetime, they make too much money from you.

1. Forward motion, face down and released (your hand is no longer holding onto the cards; you are not protecting your cards) is a MUCK. You cannot retrieve the cards once you have done this.2. You must show 2 hole cards to claim any portion of a showdown pot. You cannot play the board if you have no cards.3. Learn to PROTECT YOUR CARDS at all times.4. I may have been the supervisor that made that ruling for you. I have done it many, many times since. I did it TWICE on the last table of 9 players in WPT's Canadian Open last year. Both incidents were discussed in depth in other threads. The Tournament Director's Association (TDA) has since posted this rule to cover the situation :..."#28. Unprotected Hands- If a dealer kills an unprotected hand the player will have no redress and will not be entitled to a refund of bets. However, if a player had raised and the raise had not yet been called, the raise will be returned to the player.In your case, YOU mucked your cards. You have no redress.

[seemorenuts 0]

You need to show two cards to win the hand even if the board plays methinks.

Great point. That would settle it.You'd think an exception would be made though when through bizarre circumstances all my chips (potentially) were in play.I now recall asking them and they said 'too bad' though I'm not sure, it was so 'traumatic'...

[seemorenuts 0]

snipIn your case, YOU mucked your cards. You have no redress.

Agreed. I got sloppy when it got to the ALL CAPS portion of that post. I had already correctly processed it at the time.Though I was a bit shocked, I realized that all was fine. (Just a second of quiet wistful curiosity about the community cards).I thoroughly enjoyed that tournament, and it was in part due to the excellent dealing and supervision. Thanks!Are you sure it was you? I guess you know who I am now... lol.On other topics:1. Are you hired/asked specifically by WPT in a select fashion to work their events or does your seniority at Fallsview automatically select you for their events?2. If a person(s) is known to run an underground/illegal poker room, does this disqualify them from playing either at Fallsview and/or WPT events at least in Ontario under OLG jursidiction? What about WPT events in the future outside of Ontario?

[13CARDS 0]

2. If a person(s) is known to run an underground/illegal poker room, does this disqualify them from playing either at Fallsview and/or WPT events at least in Ontario under OLG jursidiction? What about WPT events in the future outside of Ontario?

LOL...if we decided to not let people play that were involved with "illegal" activities, our casino (and many others!) would be very very empty places.

Are you sure it was you? I guess you know who I am now... lol.

I have no idea who you are.

[seemorenuts 0]

LOL...if we decided to not let people play that were involved with "illegal" activities, our casino (and many others!) would be very very empty places. I have no idea who you are.

Good, I like to play incognito... What about the OPP, OLG and/or WPT?I already know that the police don't care and we know the OLG is rather busy with the lottery scandal.I guess the WPT doesn't worry about scandals? Why haven't any hitmen showed up at the final table yet?

[ibuddy 0]

doesnt matter what he says! he flipped his cards face up and won. any casino would rule that a win

[13CARDS 0]

doesnt matter what he says! he flipped his cards face up and won. any casino would rule that a win

LOL