HubDub04 0 Posted March 19, 2007 Share Posted March 19, 2007 Ok, so today i'm playing in my normal 3-5 NL game at Potowatomi in Milwaukee and I get involved in this weird incident. I get dealt AA UTG and raise to $75 and get called by villian in position. I lead out on flop of Q 4 5 (2 hearts) with $100 and get called. I make same bet when 3 sp comes on turn. On river I check when 6 sp comes for 4 to the up and down straight . He checks, I show AA he says "I thought you might have had a big pair,but I missed my heart draw". He turns his j 7 hearts face up and throws the cards in the middle. Dealers shoves me the pot. I know that he didn't see his straight but thats not my problem. About 5 seconds later, after cards had already been put in the shuffler and while I'm still stacking my chips another player says " you rivered the 7 high straight" and he says "did I?". He has the dealer call the floor over and told them that he never mucked his cards because they were thrown in the middle face up. I thought that was a muck I told them. They checked the cameras and declared that he did indeed river the 7 high straight and I was to give him the $550 pot. I gave it to him of course but this bothers me. He basically conceded the hand because he said he missed his draw and threw his cards in the middle. The floor person said that the cards were never turned face down and that they were still live because of that. Was this handled correctly? I have always been under the impression that you are responsible for reading your own hands and once you concede a hand thats it. Ideas? Comments? Link to post Share on other sites
navybuttons 15 Posted March 19, 2007 Share Posted March 19, 2007 i thought this was going to be easy, but i re-read it.it depends on whether or not he "tabled the winning hand". i hope this doesn't turn into a 5 page semantics thread.if he tabled the winning hand he wins. Link to post Share on other sites
martinmc 0 Posted March 19, 2007 Share Posted March 19, 2007 He flipped his cards, so it now up to the dealer to decide the wining hand. Thats just the way it is just about everywhere. The cards have to be thrown face down for a player to muck them. In this case the dealer mucked the cards so your beef is with him. Link to post Share on other sites
elnino 0 Posted March 19, 2007 Share Posted March 19, 2007 yeah, as long as he flips his hand face up he is entitled to the pot. any error made now is the dealer's faultbeat me to it martinmc Link to post Share on other sites
JesseW316 0 Posted March 19, 2007 Share Posted March 19, 2007 handled correctly, they were face up in the middle. If they were in the muck, it's dead. Link to post Share on other sites
delphi12 0 Posted March 19, 2007 Share Posted March 19, 2007 Cards speak.. Players don't. The floor made the right call. Once the cards are shown, they speak. Doesn't matter what the player says. I play with a guy all the time that after seeing my hand, will flip over his hand and always claim a higher hand. Doesn't matter what he says, and it doesn't matter if I muck my hand. Once I showed the table my hand, its live and deserves the pot if its the best hand. Link to post Share on other sites
A_Bullets_A 0 Posted March 19, 2007 Share Posted March 19, 2007 He didn't muck his hand. He flipped his cards face up and showed the hand. It doesn't matter if he didn't realize what he had. The dealer made a mistake, thats all. You saw that he had a straight so YOU should have said something. Why did you take the pot? You got rivered, big deal. Take it like a man next time. Link to post Share on other sites
HubDub04 0 Posted March 19, 2007 Author Share Posted March 19, 2007 He didn't muck his hand. He flipped his cards face up and showed the hand. It doesn't matter if he didn't realize what he had. The dealer made a mistake, thats all. You saw that he had a straight so YOU should have said something. Why did you take the pot? You got rivered, big deal. Take it like a man next time.Take it like a man? Ok, next time someone concedes a hand to me i'll just ship the pot back to him so he can buy a book that tells him what hands beat AA. I'm not saying I got screwed. I'm simply asking if this was done correctly. Why is it MY responsibility to say something about a player who misread his hand. Stay out of this thread if you feel the need to be a total ******. Link to post Share on other sites
A_Bullets_A 0 Posted March 19, 2007 Share Posted March 19, 2007 You're right, it's not your responsibility. It's the dealer's, but he made a mistake. I just think you should have given him the pot anyways if you knew he had you beat. I've had a similar situation to this. I had AK I and bet the flop and the turn. I figured this guy was on a flush draw and missed so I just checked the river thinking my Ace high was good. He was on a flush draw like I thought, but he caught a pair of 6's on the river. Then when he turned it over the dealer mucked it right away for some reason, but I already saw that the guy had me beat with the 6 on the river. I mucked my hand and told the dealer to give him the pot. I don't want to take someone's money because of a dealer's mistake. Wether he knew what he had or not, I think it's a pretty crappy thing to do. I'm glad someone brought it up and got the guy his money back from you. Link to post Share on other sites
vgsgeek 0 Posted March 19, 2007 Share Posted March 19, 2007 While I am 100% in agreement that if he turns his cards face up and lays them on the table, even if he says "you win, I missed my straight", he should have been pushed the pot. The dealer made a mistake, missed the fact that there was a straight and pushed you the pot. My question is this, since the money had been pushed to you, the cards had now ALL been put in the muck, and then in to the shuffeler and the next hand is already underway before anybody notices that there is an issue and says something, shouldn't the initial call by the dealer stand? I'm just a little surprised that the floor would go to the video replay in this case. Link to post Share on other sites
A_Bullets_A 0 Posted March 19, 2007 Share Posted March 19, 2007 While I am 100% in agreement that if he turns his cards face up and lays them on the table, even if he says "you win, I missed my straight", he should have been pushed the pot. The dealer made a mistake, missed the fact that there was a straight and pushed you the pot. My question is this, since the money had been pushed to you, the cards had now ALL been put in the muck, and then in to the shuffeler and the next hand is already underway before anybody notices that there is an issue and says something, shouldn't the initial call by the dealer stand? I'm just a little surprised that the floor would go to the video replay in this case.Yeah, I think it just depends what casino you're playing at. I've seen stuff like this a few times. Some places will check the cameras and fix the mistake and some just won't do anything about it. I don't see why they won't try to fix it in some places. Where I play if the dealer awards the pot to the wrong person and the player takes it, the dealer then can't take it back even if he realizes his mistake right away. I don't see why they have the rules like that, I hate it. Most times that I've seen this kind of thing happen though, the player will be decent enough to give it back. Link to post Share on other sites
chaosnhavoc 0 Posted March 19, 2007 Share Posted March 19, 2007 If this helps at all which I know it wont in my experience when stealing money from the newbs we had the rule call it correctly or lose your money... Link to post Share on other sites
joshrogo 0 Posted March 19, 2007 Share Posted March 19, 2007 Ok, so today i'm playing in my normal 3-5 NL game at Potowatomi in Milwaukee and I get involved in this weird incident. I get dealt AA UTG and raise to $75 and get called by villian in position. I lead out on flop of Q 4 5 (2 hearts) with $100 and get called. I make same bet when 3 sp comes on turn. On river I check when 6 sp comes for 4 to the up and down straight . He checks, I show AA he says "I thought you might have had a big pair,but I missed my heart draw". He turns his j 7 hearts face up and throws the cards in the middle. Dealers shoves me the pot. I know that he didn't see his straight but thats not my problem. About 5 seconds later, after cards had already been put in the shuffler and while I'm still stacking my chips another player says " you rivered the 7 high straight" and he says "did I?". He has the dealer call the floor over and told them that he never mucked his cards because they were thrown in the middle face up. I thought that was a muck I told them. They checked the cameras and declared that he did indeed river the 7 high straight and I was to give him the $550 pot. I gave it to him of course but this bothers me. He basically conceded the hand because he said he missed his draw and threw his cards in the middle. The floor person said that the cards were never turned face down and that they were still live because of that. Was this handled correctly? I have always been under the impression that you are responsible for reading your own hands and once you concede a hand thats it. Ideas? Comments?It's all quite interesting and academic .. but, does anyone find an open raise of $75 in a 3-5 game interesting .. and a flat call with J& suited???? Link to post Share on other sites
moto67e 0 Posted March 19, 2007 Share Posted March 19, 2007 It's all quite interesting and academic .. but, does anyone find an open raise of $75 in a 3-5 game interesting .. and a flat call with J& suited????LOL that's what I was wondering. Link to post Share on other sites
Whiter Sr 0 Posted March 19, 2007 Share Posted March 19, 2007 Ok, so today i'm playing in my normal 3-5 NL game at Potowatomi in Milwaukee and I get involved in this weird incident. I get dealt AA UTG and raise to $75 and get called by villian in position. I lead out on flop of Q 4 5 (2 hearts) with $100 and get called. I make same bet when 3 sp comes on turn. On river I check when 6 sp comes for 4 to the up and down straight . He checks, I show AA he says "I thought you might have had a big pair,but I missed my heart draw". He turns his j 7 hearts face up and throws the cards in the middle. Dealers shoves me the pot. I know that he didn't see his straight but thats not my problem. About 5 seconds later, after cards had already been put in the shuffler and while I'm still stacking my chips another player says " you rivered the 7 high straight" and he says "did I?". He has the dealer call the floor over and told them that he never mucked his cards because they were thrown in the middle face up. I thought that was a muck I told them. They checked the cameras and declared that he did indeed river the 7 high straight and I was to give him the $550 pot. I gave it to him of course but this bothers me. He basically conceded the hand because he said he missed his draw and threw his cards in the middle. The floor person said that the cards were never turned face down and that they were still live because of that. Was this handled correctly? I have always been under the impression that you are responsible for reading your own hands and once you concede a hand thats it. Ideas? Comments?I agree if he placed his cards face up on the table then he is the winner.Am I the only one who found the 15XBB raise UTG a little wierd. Link to post Share on other sites
Pot Odds RAC 23 Posted March 19, 2007 Share Posted March 19, 2007 He didn't muck his hand. He flipped his cards face up and showed the hand. It doesn't matter if he didn't realize what he had. The dealer made a mistake, thats all. You saw that he had a straight so YOU should have said something. Why did you take the pot? You got rivered, big deal. Take it like a man next time. That is pretty uncalled for, read the original post and comprehend it like a man. Link to post Share on other sites
mtdesmoines 3 Posted March 19, 2007 Share Posted March 19, 2007 I agree if he placed his cards face up on the table then he is the winner.Am I the only one who found the 15XBB raise UTG a little wierd.Welcome to live play. Link to post Share on other sites
13CARDS 0 Posted March 19, 2007 Share Posted March 19, 2007 Ok, so today i'm playing in my normal 3-5 NL game at Potowatomi in Milwaukee and I get involved in this weird incident. I get dealt AA UTG and raise to $75 and get called by villian in position. I lead out on flop of Q 4 5 (2 hearts) with $100 and get called. I make same bet when 3 sp comes on turn. On river I check when 6 sp comes for 4 to the up and down straight . He checks, I show AA he says "I thought you might have had a big pair,but I missed my heart draw". He turns his j 7 hearts face up and throws the cards in the middle. Dealers shoves me the pot. I know that he didn't see his straight but thats not my problem. About 5 seconds later, after cards had already been put in the shuffler and while I'm still stacking my chips another player says " you rivered the 7 high straight" and he says "did I?". He has the dealer call the floor over and told them that he never mucked his cards because they were thrown in the middle face up. I thought that was a muck I told them. They checked the cameras and declared that he did indeed river the 7 high straight and I was to give him the $550 pot. I gave it to him of course but this bothers me. He basically conceded the hand because he said he missed his draw and threw his cards in the middle. The floor person said that the cards were never turned face down and that they were still live because of that. Was this handled correctly? I have always been under the impression that you are responsible for reading your own hands and once you concede a hand thats it. Ideas? Comments?Did he just flash his cards or did he table them (face up on the felt)? If he just flashed them and then threw them in face down...conceded and MUCKED!If he tabled them properly and then picked them up and threw them toward the center...WINNING HAND.....BUT!....If the dealer missed it, and pushed the pot and those chips were received and accepted (started stacking them) AND the cards were all shuffled and the next hand had begun...HAND OVER (at my casino anyway!). We very rarely go to the cameras to fix a pot that was pushed wrongly. In almost all situations like this, SOMEONE owns up and settles the money off the table. Or the casino can comp a comparable amount.... Link to post Share on other sites
navybuttons 15 Posted March 19, 2007 Share Posted March 19, 2007 I get dealt AA UTG and raise to $75 and get called by villian in position. He turns his j 7 hearts face up.what's the problem? Link to post Share on other sites
LongLiveYorke 38 Posted March 19, 2007 Share Posted March 19, 2007 I don't like the fact that the casino forced you to give chips back. I believe that if the hand is over, cards are reshuffled, you already stacked the chips, and another hand has been dealt, that's it. The money is yours at that point. I mean, you were fully in your right after the hand to get up and walk away with your money. Could the casino then come for you after you have left the table with the money that was pushed toward you and demand you give it back. What if you got to your car? How far does it go?If the casino really believed that they made a mistake, then they should be responsible for giving the guy his money back. It shouldn't come from you long after the hand is over because, for all intents and purposes, that is your money at that point.It should be like hockey. Once the puck is dropped and the next play has begun, the ruling for the previous play is final. Link to post Share on other sites
eYank 0 Posted March 19, 2007 Share Posted March 19, 2007 lol @ calling a 15BB raise preflop with J7 suitedId be more pissed @ the guy that told him he had a straight rather then the other idiot Link to post Share on other sites
A_Bullets_A 0 Posted March 19, 2007 Share Posted March 19, 2007 That is pretty uncalled for, read the original post and comprehend it like a man.Sorry, I guess it's just me that doesn't like people who steal money from other players at the table. Link to post Share on other sites
13CARDS 0 Posted March 19, 2007 Share Posted March 19, 2007 Sorry, I guess it's just me that doesn't like people who steal money from other players at the table.Did he steal it or was he awarded it?Should he give it to the other player? Can he? If it is table stakes and the pot is considered to be his, rightly or wrongly, then according to table stakes rules, he cannot give money to another player (from his stack). If he wanted to take $550 out of his pocket and give it to the player, that would be fine with me in my casino. Link to post Share on other sites
psujohn 0 Posted March 19, 2007 Share Posted March 19, 2007 Did he steal it or was he awarded it?Should he give it to the other player? Can he? If it is table stakes and the pot is considered to be his, rightly or wrongly, then according to table stakes rules, he cannot give money to another player (from his stack). If he wanted to take $550 out of his pocket and give it to the player, that would be fine with me in my casino.That's another good point. Hero shouldn't be able to pull chips off his stack to give to another player even if he wants to. Even if he wants to because of a possible dealer mistake.There are a lot of subtleties and house rules involved here that make it pretty much impossible for a forum to tell you if they ruling was correct.- did you table the hand in front of him before throwing the cards in the middle- did he throw the cards in the middle face up or face downIn some places throwing your cards in the middle - even face up - is not tabling the hand and considered a muck.I agree with two things though:- once the pot is pushed and you're stacking it it's yours- the guy not involved should have kept his mouth shut at that pointI think it's correct for Hero or another player at the table to point out the str8 if the hand is properly tabled. I know in a self-dealt home game kind of situation I'd certainly say something if I were hero or another player. In a casino I like to think I'd point out the str8 if I were the hero but I can't say for sure that I would. Though a guy that's dumb enough to not be able to read his hand is likely to give it back later anyway. Link to post Share on other sites
mx957 0 Posted March 19, 2007 Share Posted March 19, 2007 Did he steal it or was he awarded it?Should he give it to the other player? Can he? If it is table stakes and the pot is considered to be his, rightly or wrongly, then according to table stakes rules, he cannot give money to another player (from his stack). If he wanted to take $550 out of his pocket and give it to the player, that would be fine with me in my casino.Ok, he was awarded it but he knew the straight was the winning hand. Covering it up makes you look like an angle shooter. Just take your bad beats and thank the donkey for calling with j7 suited. You will win more in the long run. Look at it this way. The other people at the table will watch what you do in this situation. Do you want to be known as a guy that will take a pot that isn't his or do you want to be know as the player that's honest. I'd rather be honest and good than shadey and good anytime.Now as far as the OP goes, you got a very rare occurance. The casino usually doesn't review the tape where I play. The floor will attempt to make a judgement but I haven't seen them go to the tape ever. Link to post Share on other sites
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