This Is How To Flop The Nuts And Lose, Advice Needed Please

[gfdsa146 0]

$4 180man tourney on pokerstars.I picked up A-10 from EP with about $3k in chips with the blinds at 100/200. Raised it up 3x BB. Chip leader /w 26k on the button calls. Flop was QJK rainbow. I min-bet it, he min-raises, I call. Turn was another J (QJKJ). I min-bet again, he calls. River's a 7 (QJKJ7). I have about 2k left, i bet out 1000k then he puts me all-in and i call. He turns over K-J.Now I don't want this to be a bad beat thread, so I've left the part where i whine about it out. I'm posting this to ask the FCP community if they would be able to get away from this hand, and what their reasoning for it is. I'm just trying to better myself as a poker player and would appreciate the advice. I've seen DN flop the nuts repeatedly in WSOP (vs farha) and on HSP (vs lindgren, well i forgot if he laid it down against lindgren) and have the balls to fold when he got outdrawn on the river/turn. I wish i could do that

[zimmer4141 0]

Bet more on the flop. A bet of 200 is really doing nothing for you except giving your opponent odds to draw out on you. Get as much money in on that flop as you can rather than slowplaying it. It's a $4 tourney, the other players will pay you off.

[dapokerbum 0]

(a) Fold Pre-Flop(B) Don't Min Raise© Don't just call(d) Push after his min raise(e) You would lose regardless because you aren't getting away from this hand and neither is he...unless you folded pre-flop of course!

[cubsfan44 0]

$4 180man tourney on pokerstars.I picked up A-10 from EP with about $3k in chips with the blinds at 100/200. Raised it up 3x BB. Chip leader /w 26k on the button calls. Flop was QJK rainbow. I min-bet it, he min-raises, I call. Turn was another J (QJKJ). I min-bet again, he calls. River's a 7 (QJKJ7). I have about 2k left, i bet out 1000k then he puts me all-in and i call. He turns over K-J.Now I don't want this to be a bad beat thread, so I've left the part where i whine about it out. I'm posting this to ask the FCP community if they would be able to get away from this hand, and what their reasoning for it is. I'm just trying to better myself as a poker player and would appreciate the advice. I've seen DN flop the nuts repeatedly in WSOP (vs farha) and on HSP (vs lindgren, well i forgot if he laid it down against lindgren) and have the balls to fold when he got outdrawn on the river/turn. I wish i could do that

you played that hand about as bad as possible.

[gfdsa146 0]

you played that hand about as bad as possible.

elaborate please

[magnus72 0]

You sure you weren't playing in a Royal Hold Em tournament?Seriously though its hard to lay that down on the river when you have 2/3 of your chips in the pot. I dont think I could make that lay down.Edit: forgot about the 7 on the river which nukkifies my royal hold em joke.

[cubsfan44 0]

elaborate please

Fold preflop to start. There is really nothing in the hand that you did well. Fortunatly for you the results prolly would have been the same no matter how u played it.

[navybuttons 15]

I min-bet it, he min-raises, I call. I min-bet again, he calls. River's a 7 (QJKJ7). I have about 2k left, i bet out 1000k then he puts me all-in and i call. He turns over K-J.

don't do that.

I'm posting this to ask the FCP community if they would be able to get away from this hand.

i would. i know when i'm beat. (yes, i'm that good.)

[Mikey Ravioli 0]

Look at the hand from the opposite side and calculate the pot odds you gave the villian to call you.

[gfdsa146 0]

A bet of 200 is really doing nothing for you except giving your opponent odds to draw out on you

I understand this, but I don't see why a bet of 200 is bad here. I know that min-betting gives ppl odds to outdraw me, but in this case, what the hell are they going to outdraw me to? if chip leader had a 10 in a hand, he could either draw to a lower straight or a split. If he didn't hit either of these, i would have collected a couple of bets from him chasing it. He isn't going to draw to a flush, the flop was rainbow. i wouldn't min-bet here if i saw anything that could outdraw me, but because i was holding the nuts, i thought that i was getting value on my hand.

[gfdsa146 0]

A bet of 200 is really doing nothing for you except giving your opponent odds to draw out on you

I understand this, but I don't see why a bet of 200 is bad here. I know that min-betting gives ppl odds to outdraw me, but in this case, what the hell are they going to outdraw me to? if chip leader had a 10 in a hand, he could either draw to a lower straight or a split. If he didn't hit either of these, i would have collected a couple of bets from him chasing it. He isn't going to draw to a flush, the flop was rainbow. i wouldn't min-bet here if i saw anything that could outdraw me, but because i was holding the nuts, i thought that i was getting value on my hand.

[blakheart 3]

$4 180man tourney on pokerstars.I picked up A-10 from EP with about $3k in chips with the blinds at 100/200. Raised it up 3x BB. Mistake one- fold preflop from EP with A 10 Chip leader /w 26k on the button calls. Flop was QJK rainbow. I min-bet it, he min-raises, I call. Mistakes 2 and 3. Bet pot here, or check raise big. His min raise needs to be reraised. Turn was another J (QJKJ). I min-bet again, he calls. River's a 7 (QJKJ7). I have about 2k left, i bet out 1000k then he puts me all-in and i call. He turns over K-J.Now I don't want this to be a bad beat thread, so I've left the part where i whine about it out. I'm posting this to ask the FCP community if they would be able to get away from this hand, and what their reasoning for it is. I'm just trying to better myself as a poker player and would appreciate the advice. I've seen DN flop the nuts repeatedly in WSOP (vs farha) and on HSP (vs lindgren, well i forgot if he laid it down against lindgren) and have the balls to fold when he got outdrawn on the river/turn. I wish i could do that

Playing marginal hands OOP is difficult enough. Minraisining is weak. You probably would have gone broke here anyway, but you would have gotten the money in when you were ahead instead of waiting until you were dead to push your chips in.A bad beat is when you get your money in good and get sucked out on. You gave the villian plenty of reason to draw to 6 outs on the flop. For a $200 bet on the flop he could get $2500 from you.

[rogerwilco 0]

you played that hand about as bad as possible.

QFTReally, every single decision you made in this hand (except the call at the end) was wrong in my opinion.

[zimmer4141 0]

I understand this, but I don't see why a bet of 200 is bad here. I know that min-betting gives ppl odds to outdraw me, but in this case, what the hell are they going to outdraw me to? if chip leader had a 10 in a hand, he could either draw to a lower straight or a split. If he didn't hit either of these, i would have collected a couple of bets from him chasing it. He isn't going to draw to a flush, the flop was rainbow. i wouldn't min-bet here if i saw anything that could outdraw me, but because i was holding the nuts, i thought that i was getting value on my hand.

No, you want to build a pot with the nuts. You can build a pot by betting more than the minimum. You should bet around 600 here. Then he probably pushes, and you get all the money in as a favorite rather than getting it in drawing dead.

[gfdsa146 0]

Mistakes 2 and 3. Bet pot here, or check raise big. His min raise needs to be reraised.

I guess you're right here. My problem is deciding when to push /w a big hand. I'll usually push if I think my opponent has a good enough hand such that i'll get called. I couldn't decide whether or not his min-raise meant a big hand, or if he was trying to scare me into folding because of his huge chip stack. But then again, what chip leader min-raises if they wanna scare a shorter stack out of a hand?

[gfdsa146 0]

You sure you weren't playing in a Royal Hold Em tournament?

what's royal hold em

[blakheart 3]

I understand this, but I don't see why a bet of 200 is bad here. I know that min-betting gives ppl odds to outdraw me, but in this case, what the hell are they going to outdraw me to? if chip leader had a 10 in a hand, he could either draw to a lower straight or a split. If he didn't hit either of these, i would have collected a couple of bets from him chasing it. He isn't going to draw to a flush, the flop was rainbow. i wouldn't min-bet here if i saw anything that could outdraw me, but because i was holding the nuts, i thought that i was getting value on my hand.

If you are going to underbet the pot to allow villians to chase, then you need to be able to fold whenthey make their hands.You only want to price them in to chase if they can make a 2nd best hand. Here, Villian could make a hand that is better then you. What kind of hand do most players flat call you with preflop? 2 big cards, suited connectors, small pairs. What does his flop raise tell you? He hit the board somehow. Given a typical preflop calling range, he most likely has 2 pair, possibly one pair and a straight draw. Unlikely he has a smaller pair since the board is dangerous. Also unlikely he has a set since pocket Jacks,Queens or Kings likely raise you preflop.On the turn- he raises you again! If he had 2 pair he may have made his boat. If he has one pair and a draw, he should take the free card. I think it is most likely he has a boat here. Only other hand I put him on is K10 playing badly, or A10. You are most likely beat here. Your goal is to either see the river as cheaply as you can or fold. Getting all in on the river is terrible here IMHO.

[rogerwilco 0]

btw. I have played enough of these $4 donkaments to know, that the type of player who gets a +100BB stack at this level very probably wouldn't fold at this flop even if you had just open pushed all in. When in any kind of doubt it is usually better to bet your strong hands hard in such a tournament, chances are that you will get called.

[pokerinc 0]

Min betting here is bad. But just calling the min re raise is worse.You have the nuts but are very vulnerable to a split or to him turning or rivering a boat. When he repopped those are the things you have to think. He's got kq, kj, slightly possible jj. Or a hand like qa where he could draw to a tie. He showed interest, and he's got a big stack. Get all your chips in there.Also, as noted, probably not profitable to do this pre flop w/ ace 10 in the long run.

[gfdsa146 0]

If you are going to underbet the pot to allow villians to chase, then you need to be able to fold whenthey make their hands.You only want to price them in to chase if they can make a 2nd best hand. Here, Villian could make a hand that is better then you. What kind of hand do most players flat call you with preflop? 2 big cards, suited connectors, small pairs. What does his flop raise tell you? He hit the board somehow. Given a typical preflop calling range, he most likely has 2 pair, possibly one pair and a straight draw. Unlikely he has a smaller pair since the board is dangerous. Also unlikely he has a set since pocket Jacks,Queens or Kings likely raise you preflop.On the turn- he raises you again! If he had 2 pair he may have made his boat. If he has one pair and a draw, he should take the free card. I think it is most likely he has a boat here. Only other hand I put him on is K10 playing badly, or A10. You are most likely beat here. Your goal is to either see the river as cheaply as you can or fold. Getting all in on the river is terrible here IMHO.

He didn't raise me on the turn, he flat-called another min-bet. Would you have put him on a boat here too?

[gfdsa146 0]

by the way, i appreciate everyone's continuous replies to this topic, i'm learning a good amount reading this stuff.

[rogerwilco 0]

[snip]

I don't know at what level you play, but I strongly disagree with your hand ranges here. A player who gets so many chips so early VERY probably is a complete idiot. He could have any pair, or even just any ace to call preflop and make a minraise on the flop, in my opinion.

[DB10-2 0]

No, you want to build a pot with the nuts. You can build a pot by betting more than the minimum. You should bet around 600 here. Then he probably pushes, and you get all the money in as a favorite rather than getting it in drawing dead.

exactly. with the way the villain played his hand, there's no reason you shouldn't have been able to get all of your money in on the flop. you made a weak looking bet of 200 and got the perfect outcome--a raise. after that, you have to punish the guy by reraising.

[terradawg 0]

what's royal hold em

PM PrtyPSux. He's the resident Royal Hold 'Em expert.

[navybuttons 15]

He didn't raise me on the turn, he flat-called another min-bet. Would you have put him on a boat here too?

bingo! that flat call looks super scary to me. i think the only hand i can beat at the river is A10 or maybe 910. i agree w/ blakheart's advice, it really doesn't look like your good on the end.