"inverted" Full Houses

[iwantitall 0]

So here's a tricky part of omaha that I'd like to discuss. I call any full house with the three cards lower ranking that the two cards as "inverted" KKKAA or 55522, etc.Resorts Casino, East Chicago. 11PM on a Friday night. Limit, Omaha 8 or better.6 callers before me in the big blind, look down at: KK36 out of the big blind.Check, of course.Flop comes Ah-Kh-As.Tricky situation right? Only hand beating you now is Ace with case King and quad aces. I'll likely hear from them right on the flop. But, both aces are probably out there, which means I am going up against 2 players both with trip aces waiting to pair their kickers.I bet, and sure enough 2 callers, both are pretty straight forward players. 2 opponents, assuming both have ace, so 3 remaining kickers times 2.With an ace, bigs and babies are most likely being played along with them, so bad cards for me are A, 2,3,4, T, J, Q, not king.A, 222,33,444,TTT,JJJ,QQQ is 18 of 45 remaining? and two chances at it? I think this means I am more likely to lose 60%ish than win 40%? Any strategy other than betting out and hoping they don't catch up? Check raising doesn't seem rational, because that would give them a free shot to beat me. And I almost always check trips if given the chance.7,8,9 are most likelt safe cards, but 7 and 8 add the possibility of a low, and I want them out before they can draw to them. Unless a duece follows it, my low is probably crushed, and duece probably makes aces full for both of them.5,6 are questionable, one of the players has a random card probably mixed in there.Any approach help or observations of my play or similar hand will be appreciated.

[Ouch-8s 5]

So here's a tricky part of omaha that I'd like to discuss. I call any full house with the three cards lower ranking that the two cards as "inverted" KKKAA or 55522, etc.

It is sooo hard to read your hand in Omaha.

[Vman96 0]

So here's a tricky part of omaha that I'd like to discuss. I call any full house with the three cards lower ranking that the two cards as "inverted" KKKAA or 55522, etc.Resorts Casino, East Chicago. 11PM on a Friday night. Limit, Omaha 8 or better.6 callers before me in the big blind, look down at: KK36 out of the big blind.Check, of course.Flop comes Ah-Kh-As.

It is better known as an "underfull"...and with 6 to the flop...with the ace being the most powerful card in this game....You can argue a check/fold here. Since you have an emergency low draw you could argue seeing this to the river. Given your position, I'd lean toward folding.

[Chamonyx 0]

Lets assume you bet and it gets called to the river:3+1.5+3+3=10.5BB, of which you put in 2.5 after the flop, so you need 24% equity to make it correct to play.You are accounting for 9 cards so there are 43 left. If they have 16 outs twice, your equity is about 25.5%, 17 outs gives you 21% (ignoring the impact of quads or Str Fl).They could have a maximum of 18 outs, so you need 2 of their outs to be counterfeit. If they each hold a duplicate, then they only have 14 outs so you are OK. If they don't, then you need both your blockers to be live to drop them to 16. Since your blockers are common cards, especially if the callers were not in the blinds, this hand is probably ok to play. The other thing that is relevant here is that the underfull is specifically Kings. The reason this is important is that it means you are unlikely to get played back at if they hit a kicker: the good part about this is that it makes the Math precise, the bad part is that you won't know if your not good till the end.Bottom line: underfulls are marginal hands and this is about best possible one to have....but even here no one would criticize you for laying it down.

[iwantitall 0]

First off, thank you all for your replies.

They could have a maximum of 18 outs, so you need 2 of their outs to be counterfeit.

The duece is the most often played with the ace, should I or should I not assume that they share it? If the duece pops and they go into a raising war, it would be obvious what I am up against, but that's not a terrible card for me. Yes, I have a one outer for quads as my only high draw, but unless I am specifically up against A234, A235, or A245 I have the best low draw, with both of them counterfitted twice. Let me figure out the pot odds here... AKA flop, 2 on turn.4.5 BB after flop, I check on the turn, but most likely action is bet and raise from the 2 remaining players. Assuming they'll cap it and I have the best (probably only live) low draw, 4.5 BB + 3 x 4BB cap each = 16.5BBIf any low card hits, they'll probably check or at worst one bet and call. (19.5 BB at showdown)Should I be willing to put in probably 5 BB for half of 19.5 on my 36 low draw? 4444555577778888 remaining has 1 chance at 16 outs(at best)? It doesn't look favorable to me. 33% chance at 9.75 costing 5BB each time? I think I'll lose 5.25BB every three attempts... (I'm still new at doing pot odds, can someone confirm this?)But before I do that, both players double counterfitted with a full house seems a VERY rare occurance. (MUCH more rare than a flopped full house) One of my favorite parts of OHL, is the "pain" you feel when you pair/get counterfitted...

If they each hold a duplicate, then they only have 14 outs so you are OK. If they don't, then you need both your blockers to be live to drop them to 16. Since your blockers are common cards, especially if the callers were not in the blinds, this hand is probably ok to play.

Please explain this to me more in depth. I think what you mean by "blockers" is my emergency low. If that were the case, the blinds would more likely to have played garbage cards, the 34, 35 and 45 combos, along with and duece, had it not hit on the turn. And what do you mean by "dropping them to 16"?? 16 outs? hmm...??

The other thing that is relevant here is that the underfull is specifically Kings. The reason this is important is that it means you are unlikely to get played back at if they hit a kicker: the good part about this is that it makes the Math precise, the bad part is that you won't know if your not good till the end.Bottom line: underfulls are marginal hands and this is about best possible one to have....but even here no one would criticize you for laying it down.

I am already a slight under dog with Kings under full right? Which means if I happen to be in a similar situation with Queens under, Jacks under and below, my odds go down by rank. But that's just for YADA full of aces, won't a underfull like Queens full of Kings give me better hope? This is assuming a random Ace is much more likely to be played than a random king, and so on down. Which would lead to...Nines full of Tens being in better spot than Kings full of aces?Obviously the Kings full is a stronger hand, but a ten is much much more likely to be mucked than an ace, but had it been played it has just as many redraws and not to mention a fish staying in with a pocket overpair hoping to spike it? Grr maybe I'm confusing myself more than necessary, but this does put into question the check especially for lesser underfulls.So let me in a little more on your approach. Most novice Omaha players(most of em online) would cap the crap out of trip aces weak kicker. How do I differentiate that from "I'm not effing around with my aces full"?? From my experience, live play is ALOT ALOT ALOT more timid, or maybe tame is a better discription. Reraises happen very very infrequently, and calling seems to be the popular option by far. For every re raise, there are 3 raises, 20 folds and 120 calls... Or something similar to that.So check it and hope it stands huh?This is very informative to me, I appreciate any input. Where's Jackingoffsuit?

[Chamonyx 0]

Please explain this to me more in depth. I think what you mean by "blockers" is my emergency low. If that were the case, the blinds would more likely to have played garbage cards, the 34, 35 and 45 combos, along with and duece, had it not hit on the turn. And what do you mean by "dropping them to 16"?? 16 outs? hmm...??I am already a slight under dog with Kings under full right? Which means if I happen to be in a similar situation with Queens under, Jacks under and below, my odds go down by rank. But that's just for YADA full of aces, won't a underfull like Queens full of Kings give me better hope? This is assuming a random Ace is much more likely to be played than a random king, and so on down. Which would lead to...Nines full of Tens being in better spot than Kings full of aces?

No, by your blockers being live, I mean that your opponents also hold one of each, hence you have reduced their outs by 2. The back door low does add some equity here, but it's tougher tp factor in - run some hands on twodimes if you want better data.You are correct that the other scenarios are probably better - both because of the lower likelihood of 2 competing hands, as well as the impossibility of a low to worry about....however your blockers are less likely to be live.

[iwantitall 0]

Aight, how about this example?A24K suit on the king. Pretty much playable from any position right? I'm in early position here.Flop comes 4K4 for fours full of kings.My thoughts are: GAS PEDAL!! beacuse..There will be no quad redraw against me.I have the currently best fours full, and the redraw only ties me if someone chases with a A4. (They'd be 0% to win, 2 outs to tie)Backdoor nut low draw.Only thing that can beat me is someone drawing with a pocket pair. If they spike, so be it. I'd rather have them stay when I clearly have the best of it. Right? Or should I chase them away?Any that I should add to that list?Also, how to get the most money in the pot here. I don't mind runner low draws staying because of my own. Flush draws either. Should I try to entice these calls? If I am bet into, I'd rather let someone else lead and flat call than raise, reassess at the river. If I bet out from my early position, may get callers but a raise behind me will absolutely kill the action. One bet and calls for both flop and turn would probably be the most profitable, and raise river, hope people "got there"??Thanks ya'll