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What, exactly, are his gf's concerns ? That he will sit around in his pj's all day playing on the computer ? That he won't be available in the evenngs when she is not working ? That he will not make enough money money to cover monthly expenses ? That he won't be able to make extra money to save up for "the ring" and a better lifestyle ? That he won't go back to a "real job" if this doesn't work out." That you will not be happy with his results and will cut him off? You need to listen to her specific concerns.Write up a sample schedule, including hours per day and days per week worked. Give her something concrete so she can't imagine that this will be 24/7.Review with her he gets $1000 a month to live off of (plus his bankroll)Specify a time limit....6 months sounds reasonable. If it isn't working out for you or him, either can cancel the deal. Surely she won't begrudge him a 6 month period to see if he can make his dreams come true.Part of me hates to say this.....maybe I am projecting my own feelings from when I was young and single......When I was in a serious relationship, I would always be hoping it would end in marriage. She could be thinking, by living together, that they are starting to build their future and poker could be sidetracking that. If that is where she is coming from, and if he is serious about her too.........he might try having a discussion with her about his concerns about ever being able to afford to get married/start a family on $11/hour and this could be his shot to secure their future much sooner than he otherwise could. Dangle a ring (I mean carrot) Again, I'm not speaking for all women, just explaining what arguement would have worked on me.

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This story is not unlike my own. 2 years ago I was pretty much in the same situation as this kid except I didn't have anyone willing to stake me. I had just graduated college and was getting my resume out there interviewing for finance jobs. I would get home from my interview and immediately grind for 8 hours plus. This was when I was still in the "love" phase of the game. I didn't mind playing for hours upon hours because I was still basically learning the game and things were still new to me. The reality is that the "love" phase doesn't last forever. You can ask just about any pro, and they will tell you that playing becomes a GRIND and does become a job. However I never forget that although sometimes ultra-stressful, I would much rather have this job than just about any other one. There is a great thread on 2+2 that describes some of the struggles everyday pros go through. The reality is that everyday pros go through a different struggle than a "semi-pro" who still goes to school or someone who has a job on the side. Bk, you say that he understands the struggles that go into playing professionally, I really think that is impossible unless he has taken the plunge and dealt with the range of emotions that professional poker dishes out. http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat...e=0&fpart=1I would never recommend playing exclusively mtts for a living. In my opinion it means you are putting in a TON of hours for a small hourly rate. Only a select few online players in the world can average 25k a month playing mtts, while hundreds if not thousands of cash game players can accomplish this with much much less work. Before he goes pro I think he needs to at least learn to beat lower limit (1/2nl) cash games. You know all of the downsides to mtts, so I don't have to explain them here.As for some of the advantages, he has a great start in that he has someone bankrolling him and a good player helping him with his game. I never had these things and had to learn on my own playing $20 sngs, basically teaching myself. Obviously there are some benefits to this, but it is unquestionably better to have a mentor like BK. Your friend will improve very quickly. However, players are MUCH more skilled online than even 2 years ago, so he is going to have to work very hard to become one of the top mtt players. Unfortunately, with the sick variance of mtts we might not even know for a long time if he really was the best player in the online world....The girlfriend issue is also something that is close to my heart. Obviously when I graudated my girlfriend wanted me to get a real job and in reality she didn't even know that was I that serious about poker. Really, how could I be that serious? I had a <5k roll and wasn't very good. But I "knew" working 9-5 wasn't for me and I was determined to get good at this ****ing game and become a successful pro. Eventually I stopped looking for interviews and I just told her flat out that I was going to play poker for a living. Obviously there were a ton of reservations on her part, and it took alot of explaning and many huge months to comfort her in the fact that I wasn't going to go broke. STILL(!) to this very day the first thing she says when I speak to is "how did last night go?" I think she is subconsciously thinking that I'm going to say "I lost my entire roll and I was evicted from my apt", but mainly she is just asking how my day at the office went. I almost always replay with it was "good" or "fine." I remember reading a column from DN about this and how his mother would always ask him how he did but he never got into specifics. Its best to just keep numbers and wins/losses out of it. Trust me, you don't want to be telling her you lost 5k last night....Eventually she will come around and understand that while unorthodox, playing poker for a living is still a job. Pros work crazy hours and do many things that most people couldn't fathom (flipping, playing for "huge" amounts of $, etc.) but not all of us are degenerates. I have no doubt that your friend will be able to convince his gf of this, but the harder part is convincing his gf's parents. This is something I am struggling with to this very day. I don't have a good relationship with my gfs parents, because they simply won't get the notion out of their head that I "gamble" for a living. They are nice enough people, who are intelligent and affluent so you would think they should understand the dynamics of the situation. Well, they don't even want to hear about the situation. Whenever we get together they avoid the subject, and I'm sure they mock me when I'm not around. This is something he is going to have to deal with. **** them.Your friend is leaving an $11/hr job, so basically he has nothing to lose. For people saying Health and Dental are SO important, in reality they aren't of paramount importance to a 20 something. You can pay for your own insurance (it is not cheap), but it looks like he has a serious girlfriend that he can mooch off for benefits in the future. :club: Nobody can really tell him to go for it, as its a decision that he has to make on his own and be 100% committed to. I hope he reads this and gets a little something from it. There is a ton more I could add, maybe I will later on....
Hoosier....these are some very insightful points. Excellent post!Checky also added some very good advice as well....though he's a metrosexual...what does he know!I guess the only thing I would add to the thread would be how to explain it to the GF that this is indeed a viable option. I am not currently a pro player and may never become a pro player. However, it took YEARS to convince my wife and her family that I wasn't "gambleing" my $$ away. I had to show them data of my roi % numbers in SNG's and MTT's to explain that I didn't just get "lucky" over a large sample set. I guess I would try to equate playing poker to someone who is an excellent stock broker. You point out the long term % of his playing ability. Then explain it is no different than a broker who chooses which stocks to buy etc. The key number in both jobs is your long term roi %. I don't know if that would help, but it did help my wife see things a little clearer in regards to my "edge" long term over others.Good luck to both of you if this works out! Besides...it's not like your staking skillz aren't GOLDEN!!!! (Can I PAY YOU to stake me???????) =)
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Besides...it's not like your staking skillz aren't GOLDEN!!!!
This is probably the best point in the entire thread, totally forgot about this aspect. TPMM IMMEDDDDDD
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fwiw, my friend doesn't need convincing. he wants to play poker full time. he has even said "if my girlfriend wasn't around i would do this in a second."sonnybarger,"Most people who oppose the idea have a knee-jerk "gambling is bad" prejudice that is next to impossible to overcome, regardless of how much evidence is presented to them that skill dominates luck in the long run."are you serious? most people have no clue that poker is a skill game, as opposed to other "gambling" games and have no clue there are strategies or the lengths most online poker players go to to improve their game. off the top of my head, i can think of both my parents (indian professors, imagine what they thought when their son started making thousands of dollars gambling online!) and my girlfriend who at first were more or less "omg wtf gambling complete luck blahblah" UNTIL they learned something about it. most people i know are not dull enough to not be able to change their opinions once evidence completely contrary to what they first thought is true. my friend's girlfriend is smart, so how about we assume that she is capable of accepting poker as a full time job for my friend. what are the best ways/presentations to lead her down the path of enlightenment?
To address your major concern, the easiest way to get your friends girlfriend to accept poker is to show her facts. Have your friend setup a spreadsheet to actually track his win loss ratio, dollars per hour, etc. Perhaps he already uses some kind of tracking software? If not one more month to add figures to back up his claim should help in convincing his girlfriend.
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Good luck to both of you if this works out! Besides...it's not like your staking skillz aren't GOLDEN!!!!
This is probably the best point in the entire thread, totally forgot about this aspect. TPMM IMMEDDDDDD
Well...I do try!
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If he hates his job then I don't see a big problem. He can risk taking a shot at poker, and if it does'nt work can find another job. As for the GF they usually fall in line once the money starts rolling in, but when you are losing she will make his life hell. Overall he should'nt do it unless he is determined to do it full on, not because you have talked him into it, if he is dedicated might as well give it a shot and see what happens, set a goal and a time frame and if he meets it keep going if not he can go back to the "real world". hope it works out for him

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I'm having a particularly hard time deciding exactly what path to go after college. There's the traditional route of more schooling/apprenticeship with a finance/wealth management firm and then there's poker. I know it's a world of difference from playing part-time and going to college than playing full time with adding a lot more stress and the possibility of burning out. While the money in finance/business is definitely appealing, I just don't know that I have it in me to put in 40-50 hour weeks in an office setting at this point in my life.

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read the new sig.
you're my favorite. :club: seriously, though, hoosier made a lot of good points.as for the girlfriend thing, if the main problem here is convincing the girl that poker's cool, well, that's a tough one. if she's mathematically-inclined, you can do the numbers thing, but what works for lots of people who don't know anything about poker or math in my experience is buying them stuff. that sounds stupid, but it works. outside of that, focus on the good things about poker--taking a week off whenever you want and going out of town for a weekend, pick her up from work and cook her dinner cuz she just went through a long day of work and you just woke up. hell, you could bring her on a poker forum and have her make a post in the general-ish forum as a girlfriend knowing nothing about poker and see what sorts of (hopefully good) responses you get.it's always tough to convince someone who is against something that it's in fact ok, but the best way to go about it is usually just being calm, reasonable, and making sure you don't make him/her feel like it's something that's just way over their head that they can't understand.
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I gotta say a few weeks ago I played 76 hours of poker in 5 days in order to clear the Doyles Room bonus before it closed it's doors to US players. It was a horrible experience for the most part, I woke up I played until I went to bed and then repeated. The money was worth it in the short term, but now I have lost all desire to play. Maybe it will come back maybe it won't but I haven't played anything but a few tournaments for two weeks. (Longest streak in the last two years was maybe 5 days)If your friend goes on a bad downswing and you lose a ton of money and then doesn't want to play again are you going to be able to deal with it?

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Your friend is leaving an $11/hr job, so basically he has nothing to lose. For people saying Health and Dental are SO important, in reality they aren't of paramount importance to a 20 something. You can pay for your own insurance (it is not cheap), but it looks like he has a serious girlfriend that he can mooch off for benefits in the future. :club: Nobody can really tell him to go for it, as its a decision that he has to make on his own and be 100% committed to.
hoosier your post was excellent on just about everything. i actually remember when you were starting to do it and the whole gf thing and i am glad she came around.i do however have to disagree with the insurance thing. That is by far in my opinion the most important part of this. Just because he is 20 something doesnt mean there are no health concerns. i know i didnt care to get any when i was taken off my parents but they convinced me that i needed it and what do you know a month or two after i got my insurance i tore every legiment in my knee, thank god i had insurance. No one expects something bad to happen especially 20 somethings. but you never know thats why its called insurance, its a just in case. i mean seriously anything could happen what happens if he gets appendacitis (sp?) or anything similar to that. he would have to get that taken care of and without insurance he is ****ed. so BK tell you buddy he needs to get it for himself. when i got my it was about 140 a month yes there was a co-pay but for my major surgery (knee) it really took care of me. so with the 1k you are giving him he should be able to get some on his own.the other negative is what someone brought up before about having that big of a gap in your employment history. this will effect future jobs if he deciedes poker isnt for him years down the road however i dont think this is that big of a deal because really most people (imo) get jobs based on someone they know so he can get around that.except for the two i mention i dont see any other major negatives. i think if he is willing to give 100% and based on what you say he should go for it. there is nothing really you can do right now to convince the gf honestly. he is just going to have to do it and the girlfriend should and will, if she really loves him, come around after he starts doing it.so thats my take on it. oh and as far as someone saying its easy to get a 40k job and they are everywhere. i disagree, maybe you live in a big city like D.C. where the cost of living is high but i have a college degree and a law degree and 40k plus jobs in my area arent just handed out.
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If this kid has a college degree, how is there absolutely no chance of moving up? To my understanding, he graduated from UI? U Illinois is not a shitty school. What about the option of finding a new job that has some upside/ going back to school?I hate to rain on the parade, as I think being a SUCCESSFUL poker pro would be ****ing sweet, but he does have alotta other options.

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To add to the general consensus here, quitting his $11 an hour job is the best thing he can do at this point. If he's a college graduate and settles for being kinda sorta comfortable now, he'll be 30+ and still be in that same job. The time to do things like trying to TP/MM is when you're young. For people like Hoosier and Zach who talked about the pressure of trying to pay bills while playing poker, think how much more pressure there would be if you had a wife and kids to support?I've watched a lot of my friends keep their part-time college jobs after graduating, and just do it 40 hours a week instead of 20. They're making a reasonable living now (enough to pay bills for necessities at least), but when they're 30 they won't have anything to show for the last ten years of having worked lousy jobs.Honestly, I'm not a believer in asking my girlfriend's permission to do anything. We don't live together, but if I want to do something, it's my business, not hers. If he wants to take a stab at being a pro he should just do it. He's an adult, they're not married, and he doesn't have to consult with her about things like that.

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This story is not unlike my own. 2 years ago I was pretty much in the same situation as this kid except I didn't have anyone willing to stake me. I had just graduated college and was getting my resume out there interviewing for finance jobs. I would get home from my interview and immediately grind for 8 hours plus. This was when I was still in the "love" phase of the game. I didn't mind playing for hours upon hours because I was still basically learning the game and things were new to me. The reality is that the "love" phase doesn't last forever. You can ask just about any pro, and they will tell you that playing becomes a GRIND and does become a job. However, I never forget that although sometimes ultra-stressful, I would much rather have this job than just about any other one. There is a great thread on 2+2 that describes some of the struggles everyday pros go through. The reality is that everyday pros go through a different struggle than a "semi-pro" who still goes to school or someone who has a job on the side. Bk, you say that he understands the struggles that go into playing professionally. I really think that is impossible unless he has taken the plunge and dealt with the range of emotions that professional poker dishes out. http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat...e=0&fpart=1I would never recommend playing mtts exclusively for a living. In my opinion it means you are putting in a TON of hours for a small hourly rate. Only a select few online players in the world can average 25k a month playing mtts, while hundreds if not thousands of cash game players can accomplish this with much much less work. Before he goes pro I think he needs to at least learn to beat lower limit (1/2nl) cash games. You know all of the downsides to mtts, so I don't have to explain them here.As for some of the advantages, he has a great start in that he has someone bankrolling him and a good player helping him with his game. I never had these things and had to learn on my own playing $20 sngs, basically teaching myself. Obviously there are some benefits to this, but it is unquestionably better to have a mentor like BK. Your friend will improve very quickly. However, players are MUCH more skilled online than even 2 years ago, so he is going to have to work very hard to become one of the top mtt players. Unfortunately, with the sick variance of mtts we might not even know for a long time if he really was the best player in the online world....The girlfriend issue is also something that is close to my heart. Obviously when I graudated my girlfriend wanted me to get a real job and in reality she didn't even know that was I very serious about poker. Really, how could I be that serious? I had a <5k roll and wasn't very good. But I "knew" working 9-5 wasn't for me and I was determined to get good at this ****ing game and become a successful pro. Eventually I stopped looking for interviews and I just told her flat out that I was going to play poker for a living. Obviously there were a ton of reservations on her part, and it took alot of explaning and many huge months to comfort her in the fact that I wasn't going to go broke. STILL(!) to this very day the first thing she says when I speak to her in the morning(afternoon) is "how did last night go?" I think she is subconsciously thinking that I'm going to say "I lost my entire roll and I was evicted from my apt", but mainly she is just asking how my day at the office went. I almost always replay with it was "good" or "fine." I remember reading a column from DN about this and how his mother would always ask him how he did but he never got into specifics. Its best to just keep numbers and wins/losses out of it. Trust me, you don't want to be telling her you lost 5k last night....Eventually she will come around and understand that while unorthodox, playing poker for a living is still a job. Pros work crazy hours and do many things that most people couldn't fathom (flipping, playing for "huge" amounts of $, etc.) but not all of us are degenerates. I have no doubt that your friend will be able to convince his gf of this, but the hardest part is convincing his gf's parents. This is something I am struggling with to this very day. I don't have a good relationship with my gfs parents, because they simply won't get the notion out of their head that I "gamble" for a living. They are nice enough people, who are intelligent and affluent so you would think they should understand the dynamics of the situation. Well, they don't even want to hear about the situation. Whenever we get together they avoid the subject, and I'm sure they mock me when I'm not around. This is something he is going to have to deal with. **** them.Your friend is leaving an $11/hr job, so basically he has nothing to lose. For people saying Health and Dental are SO important, in reality they aren't of paramount importance to a 20 something. You can pay for your own insurance (it is not cheap), but it looks like he has a serious girlfriend that he can mooch off for benefits in the future. :club: Nobody can really tell him to go for it, as its a decision that he has to make on his own and be 100% committed to. I hope he reads this and gets a little something from it. There is a ton more I could add, maybe I will later on....
You are obviously doing well from poker, why do your inlaws still have a problem? If they are smart, they will know it's not because you've been lucky for 2 years straight.Every job is a grind. You think I like going to work everyday? Nobody does. I can see how playing poker for a living can get to you. In life, everything is fun in small doses. However, if you have to do anything everyday for hours and hours, it would suck nomatter what it is.
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but the hardest part is convincing his gf's parents. This is something I am struggling with to this very day. I don't have a good relationship with my gfs parents, because they simply won't get the notion out of their head that I "gamble" for a living. They are nice enough people, who are intelligent and affluent so you would think they should understand the dynamics of the situation. Well, they don't even want to hear about the situation. Whenever we get together they avoid the subject, and I'm sure they mock me when I'm not around. This is something he is going to have to deal with. **** them.
QFT. My inlaws hate that I play poker. When I final tabled the WSOP, they didn't even know I was there. Shannon called them to tell them just so they wouldn't hear through the grapevine, and their response was something along the lines of: 'Well, I guess congrats are in order' in a sad tone, and they went on to say that they just expect that cash to push me over the edge into a life of degenerate gamblering... (before poker I was a really successful engineer making six figures, so I basically gave up a pretty 'safe' lifestyle for gambling, which they don't like because it impacts their daughter.Mark
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QFT. My inlaws hate that I play poker. When I final tabled the WSOP, they didn't even know I was there. Shannon called them to tell them just so they wouldn't hear through the grapevine, and their response was something along the lines of: 'Well, I guess congrats are in order' in a sad tone, and they went on to say that they just expect that cash to push me over the edge into a life of degenerate gamblering... (before poker I was a really successful engineer making six figures, so I basically gave up a pretty 'safe' lifestyle for gambling, which they don't like because it impacts their daughter.Mark
Do you make more playing poker?
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Do you make more playing poker?
I didn't come close my first year, I did my second year but I had a $90K WSOP cash, but I wouldn't have outside of that, and I expect to this year definitely.Its not about the money to them, although thats part of it. They are pretty well off and he's the head of a bunch of companies, so he'd be much happier telling his friends that his son-in-law was a high ranking business dude than a degen gambler :)They are good people though, don't get me wrong. They just want their daughter to be happy, and definitely the first year I played was hard on her. It took its toll on our marriage for sure.Mark
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I didn't come close my first year, I did my second year but I had a $90K WSOP cash, but I wouldn't have outside of that, and I expect to this year definitely.Its not about the money to them, although thats part of it. They are pretty well off and he's the head of a bunch of companies, so he'd be much happier telling his friends that his son-in-law was a high ranking business dude than a degen gambler :)They are good people though, don't get me wrong. They just want their daughter to be happy, and definitely the first year I played was hard on her. It took its toll on our marriage for sure.Mark
Glad you are doing well now.
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is there a term for "random civilian donk who doesn't know anything about nor understand the poker world"???
I dunno but we should come up with one.Undegen?Mark
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I would suggest, if you proceed, to get the business side of this set up correctly - get tax advice on the best legal structure for your arrangement and then put it in writing. This will not only take tax and legal risk out of the equation, but it may also have the added benefit of making it a more serious commitment by your friend to his new profession.If you don't get the legalities correct there are potential criminal exposures.

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