folding kk preflop in a nl hold'em tournament

[MrNiceGuy 0]

Recently, I was playing online in a $10 buy-in, 20-man two table tournament, when for the first time ever, I folded pocket kings preflop. This was near the beginning of the third level, the blinds were 25/50, and everyone was still in, so the average chip stack was the starting chip count of 1500.Two factors were involved in convincing me to fold - one was that there were two other players involved who were both playing like they had a big pair, and the second one was that I had played with one of them several times, and I was nearly certain that he would only play the way he did with AA or KK. So since I already had two of kings, I figured odds were he had the aces, so I folded.But I've been thinking about this hand - I can't imagine that I would've folded the kings preflop without that read, or without the third player present. When I became suspicious, I may have slowed down and just tried to get through the hand without investing all of my chips, but with the relatively large blinds, I doubt that would've been possible without an A hitting the board. I know in a 10-handed game, you'll run into AA about 1/24 times when you hold KK - is this just an automatic loss in this situation most of the time, with the relatively large blinds, if low cards hit the flop (assuming you even see it before you go all-in)? Has anyone here ever folded kings in such a situation?*********DETAILS OF THE HAND (if you're interested)************We had played about 20 hands so far and for the most part, the table had been playing relatively tight. I had about 1250 chips at this point, and I was on the button when I picked up KK. The first two players folded, and UTG+2 , who had about 1500 chips, limped. (I was not familiar with this player - his play hadn't jumped out at me one way or the other so far.) Two more folds, and the next player, who had about 1300 chips, minimum-raised to 100. I had played with this player, and that that raise surprised me, because he was a solid player who I would've expected him to raise more in this position with most hands, and limp with others. So while it was possible that he had a semistrong hand like A8, I thought it fairly likely that he had AK or a big pair. The next guy folded, and I raised it another 100, making it 200 to go, and folding the blinds.Now we're back to the limper, who now raises another 100 to 300! While I don't know this player, I can't imagine a limp-raise behind two other raises to be anything but a premium hand. Then the original minimum-raiser makes it 600. At this point I'm virtually certain that this means aces (or at worst the other two kings), and even if he doesn't have them, the other guy could. So at this point I dump the kings.Thankfully, I got to see it play out - the limper called the re-re-re-raise, the flop came 843 rainbow, the limper pushed all-in and got called. The limper had QQ and the solid player had AA, which held up (and no kings hit either).But with that hand and that flop, I'm fairly sure that without the limper present to give me extra information (and to give me a second person to worry about), I'm sure I would've been out of the tournament on that hand, because I'm sure I would've been all-in (or at least pot-committed) either preflop or on the flop.

[Swift_Psycho 1]

It sounds like a reasonable fold to me with your reads on the players.

[Erudis 0]

gotta go with the read. nice job

[CheckisGood 0]

The funny thing is that if your read had turned out to be wrong people would probably criticize you on this forum for dumping the kings.... good fold

[Swift_Psycho 1]

The funny thing is that if your read had turned out to be wrong people would probably criticize you on this forum for dumping the kings.... good fold

Some might, but I wish people would stop making these stupid assumptions for everyone. I can assure you that I would not change my opinion regardless of whether or not one of them had aces.

[Erudis 0]

definitely. whether the guy had aces or not i think it's really important to go with your read (as opposed to going with your 'gut' like some say when they call with that 94o). so what if you end up being wrong, you'll learn from it, you'll get better at reading, and you've already showed the discipline it takes to lay down a big hand based solely on your read. what's that worth?

[princeof56k 0]

Are people really folding pocket kings this often? This is the second thread where someone has done that. That really suprises me.Personally I would never fold pocket kings. I realize people say they have a read, but are your reading abilities really that good? No offense, but if people on this forum have reading abilities strong enough to fold KK, why are they wasting their time with $10 buy-in tournements?

[wrto4556 0]

I've said it before, i'll say it again. I'm never folding KK preflop. It's not smart unless u have proper UV protection.

[Swift_Psycho 1]

Are people really folding pocket this often?  This is the second thread where someone has done that.  That really suprises me.Personally I would never fold pocket kings.  I realize people say they have a read, but are you're reading abilities really that good?  No offense, but if people on this forum have reading abilities strong enough to fold KK, why are they wasting their time with $10 buy-in tournements?

Lack of being rich. If you are ever going to fold K-K, this sounds like the time. Please refrain from insulting everyone else and doubting our reading abilities just because you personally are incapable of parting with K-K pre-flop in this given situation.

[Suited_Up 2]

I'm with Wrto... It's one of those hands... that if you run into AA, that's just crappy luck. But you need to play them. You really really need to know your opponent to throw those away.

[Swift_Psycho 1]

I'm with Wrto... It's one of those hands... that if you run into AA, that's just crappy luck.  But you need to play them.  You really really need to know your opponent to throw those away.

This is certainly a respectable opinion. I do believe I might throw Kings away here, but on the flip side, I also am sure that I occasionally throw away a hand when I in fact have the other person beat but am scared of their betting pattern. Sounds a lot like Hellmuth, doesn't it? :doh:

[princeof56k 0]

Please refrain from insulting everyone else and doubting our reading abilities just because you personally are incapable of parting with K-K pre-flop in this given situation.

I apolagize if I insulted anyone. That was not my intent. But seriously, do you think most pros would put that much faith in their reads to fold KK? It seems you would have to be playing against the most predictable player ever.

[Suited_Up 2]

I'm with Wrto... It's one of those hands... that if you run into AA, that's just crappy luck.  But you need to play them.  You really really need to know your opponent to throw those away.

This is certainly a respectable opinion. I do believe I might throw Kings away here, but on the flip side, I also am sure that I occasionally throw away a hand when I in fact have the other person beat but am scared of their betting pattern. Sounds a lot like Hellmuth, doesn't it? :doh:

Yeah, it sure does.

[Swift_Psycho 1]

Please refrain from insulting everyone else and doubting our reading abilities just because you personally are incapable of parting with K-K pre-flop in this given situation.

I apolagize if I insulted anyone. That was not my intent. But seriously, do you think most pros would put that much faith in their reads to fold KK? It seems you would have to be playing against the most predictable player ever.

The fact that the OP has 2 opponents and not just one to worry about would make the laydown easier for me. But like I said in one of posts above, I also believe that I might be laying down the best hand too often as well. The fact that I can make a good laydown here also may work against me at other times, I admit that.

[CoolHandLaw 0]

I'm with Wrto... It's one of those hands... that if you run into AA, that's just crappy luck.  But you need to play them.  You really really need to know your opponent to throw those away.

I'm not so sure about this personally. If your read is really that strong and you are more than 99% confident of your read, then why not lay it down to an overpair like AA? I think this reasoning applies to the same extent as folding on the flop when the flop is not in your favour. If you're willing to lay down the best hand when you know that you're beat, then there's no reason you shouldn't. You just have to be damn sure about it, or risk getting flamed on FCP :wink:

[Guest]

folding KK preflop is just stupid. you didnt have a *read* on him.

[Airabus 0]

folding KK preflop is just stupid. you didnt have a *read* on him.

That's helpful.Isn't playing the player a BIG part of poker? Sounds like the OP had the cards but was very confident on his "read" of the player that had the AA. I agree with another poster that said "...having the second player in would make the laydown easier... (or something like that)"I don't know if I could have laydown KK, but poker is about making correct decision regardless of the odds not just based on the odds. This time he made a correct decision and I congratulate him for that.

[Guest]

folding KK preflop is just stupid. you didnt have a *read* on him.

That's helpful.Isn't playing the player a BIG part of poker? Sounds like the OP had the cards but was very confident on his "read" of the player that had the AA. I agree with another poster that said "...having the second player in would make the laydown easier... (or something like that)"I don't know if I could have laydown KK, but poker is about making correct decision regardless of the odds not just based on the odds. This time he made a correct decision and I congratulate him for that.

it doesnt matter. unless its your last few dollars and it would end your poker career to lose, theres no way anyone should ever lay down KK. imagine how foolish he would have felt losing out on getting 2:1 on his money if the guy had KA, QQ, or anything else

[Airabus 0]

it doesnt matter. unless its your last few dollars and it would end your poker career to lose, theres no way anyone should ever lay down KK. imagine how foolish he would have felt losing out on getting 2:1 on his money if the guy had KA, QQ, or anything else

I agree that it's not something you do everyday, but the fact that he had 2 tight (I think that's how he described them) players come over the top of him made his KK look kind of weak. Like I said, I don't think I could fold pocket kings. But you got to commend him on this correct decision. IMHO.

[SapphireTiger 0]

folding KK preflop is just stupid. you didnt have a *read* on him.

That's helpful.Isn't playing the player a BIG part of poker? Sounds like the OP had the cards but was very confident on his "read" of the player that had the AA. I agree with another poster that said "...having the second player in would make the laydown easier... (or something like that)"I don't know if I could have laydown KK, but poker is about making correct decision regardless of the odds not just based on the odds. This time he made a correct decision and I congratulate him for that.

it doesnt matter. unless its your last few dollars and it would end your poker career to lose, theres no way anyone should ever lay down KK. imagine how foolish he would have felt losing out on getting 2:1 on his money if the guy had KA, QQ, or anything else

uhm. it does matter. and making a kind of sweeping statement in your life that you won't fold KK preflop under any circumstance is wrong.

[Guest]

folding KK preflop is just stupid. you didnt have a *read* on him.

That's helpful.Isn't playing the player a BIG part of poker? Sounds like the OP had the cards but was very confident on his "read" of the player that had the AA. I agree with another poster that said "...having the second player in would make the laydown easier... (or something like that)"I don't know if I could have laydown KK, but poker is about making correct decision regardless of the odds not just based on the odds. This time he made a correct decision and I congratulate him for that.

it doesnt matter. unless its your last few dollars and it would end your poker career to lose, theres no way anyone should ever lay down KK. imagine how foolish he would have felt losing out on getting 2:1 on his money if the guy had KA, QQ, or anything else

uhm. it does matter. and making a kind of sweeping statement in your life that you won't fold KK preflop under any circumstance is wrong.

i will fold KK preflop when theres me, negreanu, and DUTCH BOYD left in the 2007 wsop and negreanu and boyd go all in preflop with the same chip stack and im guaranteed to be heads up. thats pretty much the only time.

[Random Fluke 0]

I've folded KK a handful of times in online tournies. When you see one person open for a big raise, and then you see another push all in, and then a third person pushes all in... that is a time when you can feel pretty confident someone has either kk or aa, unless you're playing with a bunch of jokers.

[pokernoobie 0]

lol does anyone notice that no one posts "i folded KK preflop no one flipped over AA" it just seems that people are trying to brag off their godly reading skills . If your reading skills are as good as you say. you would be a pro. go play some 4k-8k!

[Random Fluke 0]

lol does anyone notice that no one posts "i folded KK preflop no one flipped over AA" it just seems that people are trying to brag off their godly reading skills . If your reading skills are as good as you say. you would be a pro. go play some 4k-8k!

There are a lot of players who will only ever push all in preflop with aa and kk. You don't have to be a great reader to know this and recognize it.

[mrdannyg 274]

'reading' tight players and being cautious of them is smart. however, if the player is tight and solid and not tight and conservative it could be dangerous.when i play i tend to play around 20-25% of hands - so i'm tight but not ludicrously. i also know i have a tight reputation at the B & M games i play at, and use it to my advantage.recently, in a LIMIT game, the betting went like this:a smart/loose player raises UTG - i pick up 78s one off the button and reraise (?)., he 3-bets.the big blind is in, but he is weak/passive and not a factor.flop comes 4-6-J rainbow. bb bets, UTG raises, i reraise. bb folds. UTG calls. turns a Q, he checks, i bet. he thinks for awhile, then folds, throwing over his KK. he says "you're so tight, it had to be queens, kings or aces - i had the kings so you had to have me."i just smiled and mucked my cards. when pressed i admitted i'd actually had Jacks. :wink: so be wary of tight players who use this to their advantage. who can forget dan harrington moving all-in over the top of a Jon Murphy (or was it Arieh) raise and a Greg Raymer RERAISE with 3-6 offsuit? if you'd have had JJ or QQ it'd be easy, but by folding KK you are literally saying he can only have the single better hand. even if he was very tight, i bet he'd still make that play with QQ or AK, which means you're actually ahead 2/3 times.just my two cents, or in this case a couple bucks.good luck,daniel