mucking or calling an all in with kk pre-flop

[jack24bauer24 0]

I think you have to "take a chance" here. You have made quite a bit of money and like previous posters have said, if you lose ya lose. You would still be able to quit up quite a bit of money. KK is a monster hand and I would never throw it away in this situation. Probably didn't even have AA.BigSlick

If i'm not mistaken he did end up having aces.The more I think about it, the more I love getting all the money in preflop with AA. As most people have said, when someone makes such an outrageous raise like this no one thinks the guy could have aces, and yet, they do, and more often than you think.I will go all in with KK, but I can fold KK preflop...I've only done it once, and the guy did have aces.

[PhishForChips 0]

It was such an obvious fold situation. i can't believe some of the so called good players in this forum think you have to call all ins 100% of the time with KK pre-flop. It totally depends on the situation. And in this situation, the raiser was OBVIOUSLY looking to trap with the aces as he knew that a 4 x the blinds preflop raise probably meant that person had a strong to very strong hand and would have to call his bet. I mean come on, you see this trap play so much at these levels becasause it works. The level of play can vary so much between players at the $.50/$1.00 level that obvious trapping plays that wouldn't get a call like this at the higher limits will play out more in these lower limit games. But again, its amazing some of you cant discern a situation for what it is and automatically seem to think the correct play is to call with KK no matter what.

[allinbluff35 0]

I think you have to "take a chance" here. You have made quite a bit of money and like previous posters have said, if you lose ya lose. You would still be able to quit up quite a bit of money. KK is a monster hand and I would never throw it away in this situation. Probably didn't even have AA.BigSlick

If i'm not mistaken he did end up having aces.The more I think about it, the more I love getting all the money in preflop with AA. As most people have said, when someone makes such an outrageous raise like this no one thinks the guy could have aces, and yet, they do, and more often than you think.I will go all in with KK, but I can fold KK preflop...I've only done it once, and the guy did have aces.

it's thinking on a higher level, start making standard raises in any position, then all of a sudden when you get AA or KK add a zero to the end of it

[daddypoker23 0]

i finally had a chance to read all the replys since i've been outta town the past day. the thing is 4 bucks was the average raise pre-flop. either way if he re-raised me 16 bucks i would of called and if the board was not tooo scary i still think he would of gotten all my money. now i've mucked qq,jj acek pre-flop before so its not like i cant make a good lay down but for some reason am too stubburn to muck kk pre-flop. i read all ur post and i believe there wasnt a right or wrong answer to this question. it was shorthanded and i strongly believe that i was stuck. alright peace out joel

[Shaffer 0]

My take on the situation is as follows:I start with a call here, and need a *VERY* strong reason to lay it down. To those that are convinced that poker is a science and that there is a "correct" play to every poker situation, then the "correct" play here is to call.The only situation I would fold here would be in the face of a very weak player, combined with a very strong tell. The reason that I say that is that for some very weak players, particularly the very inexperienced ones, will look down at AA and lose their minds - before they know it they're all-in before they've ever even bothered to consider how much money is in the pot; their thought isn't is never on how big a pot they can win if they don't lose their minds. The size of their pre-flop raise is directly proportional to the strength of their hand, and AA, the strongest hand, requires an all-in. It takes a particularly weak player to think like that, but they exist, and if you've recognized one of them, and you see them give a lightning-fast glance of the cards followed by a sucking in of the breath and an immediate feigning of disinterest, following which comes the all-in, you have to seriously consider folding.Against a craftier player, one that would be capable of making a move, then putting them on a hand in the face of that craziness becomes the poison cups question from A Princess Bride. That kind of psychotic move is something that a lot of players like to do, whether it is to prove how big their cajones are, how aggressive their play is, want to bolster their table image, whatever. Against such a player, with KK, a call is the only move I could recommend.

[jayboogie 0]

I've never laid down Kings pre-flop ever to an all-in and I think I've done ok. If you lose to AA here, that's tough, but you'll make more money off this dude in the long run, so it should be fine. Anybody that overbets pre-flop like that is retarded and is not playing optimally. If your going to let the amount of money your betting influence your decisions, your playing scared. If you buy-in with $100 and you have it up to $500, all that means if you have 500 dollars worth of chips in front of you, not that your up $400 for the night. Especially in a NL game, you should be using those chips to your advantage, playing not to lose them is an easy way to minimize your profit. I'll call a $500 dollar all-in with KK damn near everytime. I just can't think of many situations where I would fold.

[Wild Bill 0]

I just encounterd a similar situation, cash game, I'm in the small blind with KK. Everybody folds to the player on my right who doubles the big blind. I raise to twice that, the big blind moves all in. Original raiser folds. The all-in guy was rather tight, otherwise I didn't know much about him. Didn't see much action.Well, I was thinking: Dude, u better have Aces 'cause I'll call ya. Which he did.Then I was thinking: Damn, that was the worst call ever.And THEN I was thinking: But was it really?So I did some math and tried to model the problem with some educated guesses.Since the player was rather tight, I believe there are not that many hands he would make such a move with. But since I gave a lot of action lately and he always folded, he might have discovered a playable hand after a dry streak and got overexited or he might be sick of my raises and decided to teach me a lesson.So I guess that in this situation the chance that he moves all-in if he holds the given pocket cards could be:AA 70%KK 30%QQ 15%JJ 5%AKs 30%AQs 10%AJs 3%ATs 1%Let's say there is no chance for an all-in with any other hand. Since he HAS moved all-in the chances for his pocket cards are calculated as:(chance_to_get_card*chance_for_all_in) / sum_over_all_cards[chance_to_get_card*chance_for_all_in]Remember, I have KK. So the actual chances that he holds the given pocket cards could be around (chances rounded):AA ~51% (chance to get: 0.49%)KK ~4% (chance to get: 0.08%)QQ ~11% (chance to get: 0.49%)JJ ~4% (chance to get: 0.49%)TT ~2% (chance to get: 0.49%)AK ~15% (chance to get: 0.33%)AQ ~10% (chance to get: 0.65%)AJ ~3% (chance to get: 0.65%)AT ~1% (chance to get: 0.65%)now multiply that with my worst case (in terms of suits) winning chances for each hand and we get the total chance for him holding the given pocket cards and me winning the hand:AA ~9% (chance I win: 17.1%)KK ~2% (chance I win: 50.0%)QQ ~9% (chance I win: 81.1%)JJ ~3% (chance I win: 80.7%)TT ~2% (chance I win: 80.3%)AKs ~10% (chance I win: 65.5%)AQs ~7% (chance I win: 67.7%)AJs ~2% (chance I win: 67.3%)ATs ~1% (chance I win: 67.0%)for a total of ~43% chance to win. [Note: the winning chance facing AA is almost equal to that facing QQ since it's much more likely that I'm facing AA]Basically there are two interesting observations here:1) The winning chances depend only on what the chances of the nemesis are for moving all-in with a given hand2) With a reasonably tight player the chances of him holding AA in this situation might be around 50% - in that case (and given that he'll do so only with premium hands) the winning chances are most likely clearly less than 50%To have a reasonable edge (~60% chance to win) you would have to face an opponent who in the given situation goes all-in with, for example:AA: 100%KK: 80%QQ: 70%JJ: 50%TT: 30%AK: 80%AQ: 50%AJ: 30%AT: 20%which I would consider pretty loose. That would give me about a 78% chance of NOT facing AA, and a maybe surprisingly low 60% total chance to win.So, while this model is definitely nowhere near accurate, I think it gives a hint that against a reasonably tight player the best action is to fold, whereas you need a very loose player or a good tell to get an advantage worth a call here.

[navybuttons 15]

i was like "how in the hell did this thread ever get to 6 pages?" then i read swift psychos second reply (where he said his first one was serious), then as i skimmed through the pages i got sad that i did not become a millionaire in the party poker days.navybuttons theorem: you never fold KK preflop for less than 200bbs because maybe the guys girlfriend just broke up with him which widens up his range just enough that when combined with the times you suck out the call is always a profitable one.

[xzanos 0]

So I guess that in this situation the chance that he moves all-in could be:AA 70%KK 30%QQ 15%JJ 5%AKs 30%AQs 10%AJs 3%ATs 1%Let's say there is no chance for an all-in with any other hand. Since he HAS moved all-in the chances for his pocket cards are calculated as:

I don't get it. So there's a 164% chance that he's all in? Or 164% chance that he has a hand?

[Wild Bill 0]

I don't get it. So there's a 164% chance that he's all in? Or 164% chance that he has a hand?

Yeah, sorry, that part was formulated a bit misleading. Actually that part is the single variable piece of my model and tries to describe the chance that a player in a given situation would move all-in when he holds the specified card.AA 70%KK 30%QQ 15%JJ 5%AKs 30%AQs 10%AJs 3%ATs 1%Therefore, that means that I estimate the chance of him moving all-in if he has AA would be 70% (with 30% raising lower or calling flat), whereas I imagine the chance of the opponent moving all in when he has AJ to be only 3% (not an all-in hand against a raise normally).Hope that helps

[Mercury69 3]

The fact that the villain shoved 40x the raise si absolutely mind-boggling. Why would anyone do that? On a .50/$1 table? Either the guy has AA and is hoping someone is willing to call him down because of his table image or he has ATC and doesn't give a fck about the $$$. What I do know is that, if I have KK, crazy guy will always have an A and hit it somewhere along the way and I'll lose $160. But I doubt I'm folding.I just don't understand this kind of play, though...IMO, the guy is a meta-retard (whatever that means...).

[Vtlaxer09 4]

recap of thread for those who dont feel like reading it."i was at a home game.. raised to 4... someguy ships for 160... i have KK... call or fold?"30 responses of "FOLD CUZ HE OBV HAS TEH ACEZ"80 respones of "You're an idiot if you fold... obv call you're shorthanded"1 day later: "he had teh ACEZ -160$ peace out"30 responses of "told you!"30 responses of "maybe open shoving with AA is a good idea""maybe... maybe not... maybe **** yourself."-marky mark.

[Jdr999 0]

This thread is tilting me.

[Royal_Tour 0]

i still stand by my rule of folding KK preflop for 150bb's ormore.and since this is a case where we have to call 150bb's pf, its a fold.I have had kings vs aces several times aipf, but i think there are some situations and reasons for folding.

[NoSup4U 0]

I hate when I get sucked into reading these old threads, and only after about 5 or 6 posts where I barely recognize any of the posters do I realize its an old bump...Mark

[psujohn 0]

This thread is tilting me.

[quadaces 0]

Folding KK is -EV, unless you see that he has AA. Otherwise call every time!

[four10 lkc 0]

tough call, anything other than AA is tought to call all in, especially with that play and only have $4 invested. I think I would fold? I have never folded KK pre, even though more than once I knew I was beat going in, it's just a very hard thing to do. I did once fold KK post flop with a junk flop that obviously couldn't have helped any legitimate hand... fact about that hand: he raised, i re-raised, he re-raised so I called, thinking he had AA but hoping that I could suckout. dead flop, I bet out 1/2 the pot, he went all in so i tabled my KK, he showed QQ obv. anyone else like that fold with KK and that much action?