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James Cameron Finds Jesus


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In that case, who is the flaw with? The christians, right?I'd like to hear from someone like lois, about his response to a scenario where it was proven beyond a reasonable doubt that the ressurection did NOT occur.EDIT: or semaj.This is more of the likely response that i would expect from a devout follower of christianity, that, and total denial.[/quote I took you off of ignore, this is a good question. Don't feel too special, I emptied my whole ignore list. I would not say that Christianity was total B.S, when it is lived right it is good for the soul, positive things occur. The truth is even now that you could technically live a good life, maybe even one that God would find worthy of heaven, if certain steps had been followed. So, if one of the things that makes Christianity special- Christ ascending into heaven- was proven to be false, I would have to question the validity of it being the only way to heaven,or if heaven even existed.There would be no explaining this away, I would be a fool or living in denial if that scenario didn't raise questions.
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It's not the response I expected at all. The denial yes but the renouncing of faith no. It shocks me a little that the technical details of a particular miracle are more important than the ideals of love, hope, and faith.
Why do you need a religion to have faith, hope and love?If Christ didn't rise from the dead and ascend into Heaven then everything witnessed about Him in the Bible is complete bull. It wouldn't change my mind on things like loving one's neighbour but I wouldn't show up to mass every Sunday anymore. Worshipping something completely false would just be moronic.As for finding another religion; maybe. I've already considered a good deal of them but they all really suffer from the same problem as a Christ-less Christianity would. The God of Christianity is the only being to both claim divinity and then prove it. If someone could prove to me that Christ isn't risen I'd probably end up a Buddhist.
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Why do you need a religion to have faith, hope and love?If Christ didn't rise from the dead and ascend into Heaven then everything witnessed about Him in the Bible is complete bull. It wouldn't change my mind on things like loving one's neighbour but I wouldn't show up to mass every Sunday anymore. Worshipping something completely false would just be moronic.As for finding another religion; maybe. I've already considered a good deal of them but they all really suffer from the same problem as a Christ-less Christianity would. The God of Christianity is the only being to both claim divinity and then prove it. If someone could prove to me that Christ isn't risen I'd probably end up a Buddhist.
Not me. I would just throw everything into being a degenerate poker player and let the chips fall where they may.
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Why do you need a religion to have faith, hope and love?
I agree with this statement wholeheartedly.Why the denouncing of faith shocked me is that because throughout this forum (and I'm not saying you here, I'm speaking generally) the idea that it doesn't matter if the exact words of the Bible are true or not because the underlying ideal is true has been a mainstay. Whenever someone says that you can't possibly know exactly what God intended because the Bible was written and translated over thousands of years by man the response by the faithful is often that it doesn't change the underlying ideals.This seems to be the same thing to me. Whether or not Christ was literally resurrected doesn't change the tenets of faith, love, and hope.You can't have it both ways. Either it's important that every detail be correct, or it's not.
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I agree with this statement wholeheartedly.Why the denouncing of faith shocked me is that because throughout this forum (and I'm not saying you here, I'm speaking generally) the idea that it doesn't matter if the exact words of the Bible are true or not because the underlying ideal is true has been a mainstay. Whenever someone says that you can't possibly know exactly what God intended because the Bible was written and translated over thousands of years by man the response by the faithful is often that it doesn't change the underlying ideals.This seems to be the same thing to me. Whether or not Christ was literally resurrected doesn't change the tenets of faith, love, and hope.You can't have it both ways. Either it's important that every detail be correct, or it's not.
Not true at all. The Bible isn't one book. The Roman Catholic Bible is a collection of 73 books written by many different authors, for differing purposes, and written across a large time span. If there is an incorrect detail in Daniel it has no bearing on the Gospels. It is very important the Gospels be accurate biographies of Jesus, it is not important if Daniel asked to be tested for 10 days or if it was actually 9. Hell, there could be 11 Commandments and Moses just forgot to tell us about one and it wouldn't really change anything about Christianity. The accounts of Jesus' life being false would completely annihilate it, however.
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But the ressurection is the thing that makes jesus the actual messiah and 'special' compared to all the other profits of his day, so actually yes, if the ressurection were proven to be false, Christianity wouldn't have a leg to stand on and Jesus would just be another regular old profit who did a lot of teaching, and had followers, etc.
I think this reflects a common misunderstanding of what it means to be a Christian, a misunderstanding shared by a lot of Christians, also. A Christian follows the message and teaching of Jesus - we believe Him. Being the Messiah means He was the One Foretold, not, He was bodily resurrected. The thing that would destroy Christianity would be to prove there is no existence beyong physical life. This is what Jesus demonstrates, the point is not that He was resurrected, but that He is, now.
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Not true at all. The Bible isn't one book. The Roman Catholic Bible is a collection of 73 books written by many different authors, for differing purposes, and written across a large time span. If there is an incorrect detail in Daniel it has no bearing on the Gospels. It is very important the Gospels be accurate biographies of Jesus, it is not important if Daniel asked to be tested for 10 days or if it was actually 9. Hell, there could be 11 Commandments and Moses just forgot to tell us about one and it wouldn't really change anything about Christianity. The accounts of Jesus' life being false would completely annihilate it, however.
I think this reflects a common misunderstanding of what it means to be a Christian, a misunderstanding shared by a lot of Christians, also. A Christian follows the message and teaching of Jesus - we believe Him. Being the Messiah means He was the One Foretold, not, He was bodily resurrected. The thing that would destroy Christianity would be to prove there is no existence beyong physical life. This is what Jesus demonstrates, the point is not that He was resurrected, but that He is, now.
Okay, this is what I was hoping for but until Semaj I hadn't found anyone who disagreed with 11 to 1. Now that we have the 2 of you, both Christians but on completely opposite sides of this issue, someone needs to figure out which it is and let everyone know.Which is it gonna be? Christ's teachings is the most important part or that he had a miraculous resurrection is the important part?*Edit - Actually, "hoping for" is not exactly what I meant. This is a disagreement of the fundamental ideology of Christianity. I'd like to know which one the majority believes.
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Not true at all. The Bible isn't one book. The Roman Catholic Bible is a collection of 73 books written by many different authors, for differing purposes, and written across a large time span. If there is an incorrect detail in Daniel it has no bearing on the Gospels. It is very important the Gospels be accurate biographies of Jesus, it is not important if Daniel asked to be tested for 10 days or if it was actually 9. Hell, there could be 11 Commandments and Moses just forgot to tell us about one and it wouldn't really change anything about Christianity. The accounts of Jesus' life being false would completely annihilate it, however.
First, there aren't "ten" commandments, when verses and chapters were added to the Bible (by a guy taking a long trip on horseback, no less) he just divided one rendition of them up that way. Two, the Gospels are not accurate biographies of Jesus, nor were they ever intended to be. That said, they are accurate in that the miracles were accomplished, the lessons taught, the actions taken. Things were probably paraphrased, some not remembered exactly, but the Truth comes out even if the facts are a little cloudy. So, let's discuss bodily resurrection as opposed to resurrection generally. If you are Catholic you know the Church declares certain persons to be "Saints." That means (for the non-Catholics) that they are in heaven. Right now. Might be everyone who has passed is there, for certain everyone not in hell is either there or on the way since Purgatory is a temporary state and those in it always graduate to Heaven sooner or later. But, the Church does say that some folks have already gotten to Heaven, that's why the Church has the huge repository of miracles along with documentation and investigation and all that.Now - you also know that a lot of those people declared Saints have bodies still here - part of being a saint used to be having an "uncorrupted" body and they were always exhuming them and displaying them. Some are still on display. So, a physical body is not required for people to be alive and well in heaven. If you are Catholic, and you say you are, you know the Church does not object to cremation, though they still like their caskets, but they do want the ashes in consecrated ground. There is still a rather vague belief that someday we will all be reunited in heaven with our "glorified" bodies, but not with the exact physical molecules that composed our bodies at the moment of death. Jesus, as Christ, is TRUE man and TRUE God - which is a more basic tenet of your faith than bodily resrrection, it is everything. For Him to be that, He was, and had to be, like us. (It's in the CCC) And so, it is not only unlikely that He was resurrected as a bodily being, but actually counter to basic Christology. HOWEVER - I also believe God makes provision for human limitation and could very well have simply vanished the physical remains as Jesus so easily could vanish disease or cancer and still does. My point is that the Gospels can be true in terms of witness, Jesus can be alive just as you and I will be when we pass, and still not necessitate the "bodily resurrection" idea.
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Okay, this is what I was hoping for but until Semaj I hadn't found anyone who disagreed with 11 to 1. Now that we have the 2 of you, both Christians but on completely opposite sides of this issue, someone needs to figure out which it is and let everyone know.Which is it gonna be? Christ's teachings is the most important part or that he had a miraculous resurrection is the important part?*Edit - Actually, "hoping for" is not exactly what I meant. This is a disagreement of the fundamental ideology of Christianity. I'd like to know which one the majority believes.
Not only both Christian, both Catholic. But it isn't an "either/or" as you propose it because there is a third choice, I already said it: the most important thing is to know you live forever and there is a place for you on the Other Side where you will be welcomed with joy and be happy beyond anything you can imagine forever. This is already true. This is what Christianity really is, this is what Jesus came to show and tell, assure and accomplish. This is the whole thing. He came to show us ourselves. It is not that He is human and Divine - it is that you are. I don't know why you are interested in what a "majority" believes. They are so often incorrect.
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First, there aren't "ten" commandments, when verses and chapters were added to the Bible (by a guy taking a long trip on horseback, no less) he just divided one rendition of them up that way. Two, the Gospels are not accurate biographies of Jesus, nor were they ever intended to be. That said, they are accurate in that the miracles were accomplished, the lessons taught, the actions taken. Things were probably paraphrased, some not remembered exactly, but the Truth comes out even if the facts are a little cloudy. So, let's discuss bodily resurrection as opposed to resurrection generally. If you are Catholic you know the Church declares certain persons to be "Saints." That means (for the non-Catholics) that they are in heaven. Right now. Might be everyone who has passed is there, for certain everyone not in hell is either there or on the way since Purgatory is a temporary state and those in it always graduate to Heaven sooner or later. But, the Church does say that some folks have already gotten to Heaven, that's why the Church has the huge repository of miracles along with documentation and investigation and all that.Now - you also know that a lot of those people declared Saints have bodies still here - part of being a saint used to be having an "uncorrupted" body and they were always exhuming them and displaying them. Some are still on display. So, a physical body is not required for people to be alive and well in heaven. If you are Catholic, and you say you are, you know the Church does not object to cremation, though they still like their caskets, but they do want the ashes in consecrated ground. There is still a rather vague belief that someday we will all be reunited in heaven with our "glorified" bodies, but not with the exact physical molecules that composed our bodies at the moment of death. Jesus, as Christ, is TRUE man and TRUE God - which is a more basic tenet of your faith than bodily resrrection, it is everything. For Him to be that, He was, and had to be, like us. (It's in the CCC) And so, it is not only unlikely that He was resurrected as a bodily being, but actually counter to basic Christology. HOWEVER - I also believe God makes provision for human limitation and could very well have simply vanished the physical remains as Jesus so easily could vanish disease or cancer and still does. My point is that the Gospels can be true in terms of witness, Jesus can be alive just as you and I will be when we pass, and still not necessitate the "bodily resurrection" idea.
I couldn't care less what happened to Jesus' physical body, it's completely irrelevant. What is important is that if Jesus was nothing but a man, died, and stayed dead in every way then Christianity is a big sham.
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Not only both Christian, both Catholic. But it isn't an "either/or" as you propose it because there is a third choice, I already said it: the most important thing is to know you live forever and there is a place for you on the Other Side where you will be welcomed with joy and be happy beyond anything you can imagine forever. This is already true. This is what Christianity really is, this is what Jesus came to show and tell, assure and accomplish. This is the whole thing. He came to show us ourselves. It is not that He is human and Divine - it is that you are. I don't know why you are interested in what a "majority" believes. They are so often incorrect.
I'm interested in what the majority believes because where the majority falls determines whether or not this theologian was right when he said disproving a literal resurrection will be the doom of Christianity. If he's right, the majority have to believe what he believes and will denounce their faith like Semaj indicated. If the majority believes that it's possible it was a figurative resurrection then this so called expert is completely wrong and no matter what further testing indicates on these ossuaries, Christianity will continue to flourish.Mostly, I just like to play in "what ifs".
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I couldn't care less what happened to Jesus' physical body, it's completely irrelevant. What is important is that if Jesus was nothing but a man, died, and stayed dead in every way then Christianity is a big sham.
It seems like you're saying 2 contradictory things.If Jesus' physical body was not resurrected then it proves he was not divine and therefore not the son of God and therefore Christianity is bogus. But you also said that what happened to the physical body is irrelevant. Am I missing the piece that makes these 2 statements not in conflict with each other?Is there any other way to believe that Jesus was divine without a literal resurrection?
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It seems like you're saying 2 contradictory things.If Jesus' physical body was not resurrected then it proves he was not divine and therefore not the son of God and therefore Christianity is bogus. But you also said that what happened to the physical body is irrelevant. Am I missing the piece that makes these 2 statements not in conflict with each other?Is there any other way to believe that Jesus was divine without a literal resurrection?
Nope, that's a misunderstanding. Jesus' divinity has nothing to do with what happened to His physical body. It's the resurrection of Jesus as a spiritual being and God that is important.
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It seems like you're saying 2 contradictory things.If Jesus' physical body was not resurrected then it proves he was not divine and therefore not the son of God and therefore Christianity is bogus. But you also said that what happened to the physical body is irrelevant. Am I missing the piece that makes these 2 statements not in conflict with each other?Is there any other way to believe that Jesus was divine without a literal resurrection?
No.
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I couldn't care less what happened to Jesus' physical body, it's completely irrelevant. What is important is that if Jesus was nothing but a man, died, and stayed dead in every way then Christianity is a big sham.
I'm sorry, I completely misunderstood you. My bad. We agree exactly.
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Nope, that's a misunderstanding. Jesus' divinity has nothing to do with what happened to His physical body. It's the resurrection of Jesus as a spiritual being and God that is important.
But, but, but...
Why do you need a religion to have faith, hope and love?If Christ didn't rise from the dead and ascend into Heaven then everything witnessed about Him in the Bible is complete bull. It wouldn't change my mind on things like loving one's neighbour but I wouldn't show up to mass every Sunday anymore. Worshipping something completely false would just be moronic.As for finding another religion; maybe. I've already considered a good deal of them but they all really suffer from the same problem as a Christ-less Christianity would. The God of Christianity is the only being to both claim divinity and then prove it. If someone could prove to me that Christ isn't risen I'd probably end up a Buddhist.
Again, someone help me see the piece I'm missing that doesn't make those 2 statements contradictory.
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If Jesus' physical body was not resurrected then it proves he was not divine .....
I may not get back until tomorrow but I have to ask: who told you this? This is not what my Church believes, divinity isn't about physical resurrection. I guess some believe that, but certainly it's not universal dogma.
Is there any other way to believe that Jesus was divine without a literal resurrection?
I assume (and I got into trouble assuming with Semaj, so correct me if necessary) that by "literal" you mean "physical." They are not the same thing. Jesus was true human and true God, He was Divine before the crucifixion, so He was Divine before He was Resurrected. He was Divine before He was born to Mary, come to that. Bodily resurrection is entirely unrelated to divinity.
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No.
I'm assuming you're saying no to there being any other way to believe that Jesus was divine.Okay. Going forward with that...What would you do instead? Would that bother you at all to have something you believed in so fervently shot down? I'm not talking about religion here anymore. Now I'm talking about how Lois personally would feel, what emotions he would go through, and whether or not he'd continue to be religious at all after that.
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Again, someone help me see the piece I'm missing that doesn't make those 2 statements contradictory.
I think it's that you are always thinking of resurrection as necessarily being physical. It doesn't mean that except to certain people. Like Lois, I guess.
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I may not get back until tomorrow but I have to ask: who told you this? This is not what my Church believes, divinity isn't about physical resurrection. I guess some believe that, but certainly it's not universal dogma. I assume (and I got into trouble assuming with Semaj, so correct me if necessary) that by "literal" you mean "physical." They are not the same thing. Jesus was true human and true God, He was Divine before the crucifixion, so He was Divine before He was Resurrected. He was Divine before He was born to Mary, come to that. Bodily resurrection is entirely unrelated to divinity.
That's the point that's in contention. That's what you believe. I'm not sure your fellow Christians in this thread agree with you. That's what I'm trying to bring to light here. Ultimately, I'd like for the majority of Christians to agree one way or the other so that when I make general statements about Christianity and the belief of where divinity comes from that the general statement would be at least generally true. Could you guys get together and confer and get back to me with the consensus please? :club: I'm not saying Jesus was or wasn't anything. Who told me that is others in this thread. I'm paraphrasing what others have said. Lois and Semaj have both indicated in this thread that physical resurrection is what proves divinity. That led to a discussion of whether or not Jesus is divine without that physical resurrection. I did not declare that a physical resurrection made him divine. That was stated previously in this thread by others and I was paraphrasing to get to the next question.Sorry that wasn't clear. I suppose if we were all having this discussion in real time instead of over several days, it would be more clear.
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I think it's that you are always thinking of resurrection as necessarily being physical. It doesn't mean that except to certain people. Like Lois, I guess.
Go back and re-read that section of the discussion.Semaj said that if the claims in the film were proved true, it would prove that Christianity is BS and he would denounce his faith. By following the logical path of that statement, I think it's fair to assume that he means if the physical resurrection were proved true, Christianity is BS and he would denounce. I think that's a fair assumption because that's the exact situation we were talking about when he made the statement. He also said (I believe in that same post) that if Jesus wasn't physically resurrected then he is not divine (again I'm paraphrasing here).Now explain to me how that statement can coexist with the one you said you agree with about the physical body being irrelevant without being contradictory.
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For clarity of my post above:

If Jesus didn't rise from the dead the rest of Christianity is complete BS.
"rise from the dead" means specifically in human form right? I say it does because when talking about the ascension most Christians will have to heaven (ie, a figurative resurrection or spiritual resurrection) we don't call it rising from the dead.
In that case, who is the flaw with? The christians, right?I'd like to hear from someone like lois, about his response to a scenario where it was proven beyond a reasonable doubt that the ressurection did NOT occur.EDIT: or semaj.This is more of the likely response that i would expect from a devout follower of christianity, that, and total denial.
I wouldn't be a Christian, simple as that.
Why do you need a religion to have faith, hope and love?If Christ didn't rise from the dead and ascend into Heaven then everything witnessed about Him in the Bible is complete bull. It wouldn't change my mind on things like loving one's neighbour but I wouldn't show up to mass every Sunday anymore. Worshipping something completely false would just be moronic.As for finding another religion; maybe. I've already considered a good deal of them but they all really suffer from the same problem as a Christ-less Christianity would. The God of Christianity is the only being to both claim divinity and then prove it. If someone could prove to me that Christ isn't risen I'd probably end up a Buddhist.
Now, how are those statements not contradictory with this one:
Nope, that's a misunderstanding. Jesus' divinity has nothing to do with what happened to His physical body. It's the resurrection of Jesus as a spiritual being and God that is important.
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For clarity of my post above:"rise from the dead" means specifically in human form right? I say it does because when talking about the ascension most Christians will have to heaven (ie, a figurative resurrection or spiritual resurrection) we don't call it rising from the dead.Now, how are those statements not contradictory with this one:
They are contradictory,but it goes beyond that. There are stories of Christ after he arose- I believe it was Thomas that wanted to see the holes in his hands. If he didn't physically rise from the dead, then those stories are just bald faced made up lies, and I would have no part in it. You absolutely have to accept the physical ressurection of Jesus in order to accept the Bible- with this asteriks. The thing is, most people these days just pick and choose, so I suppose if you just wanted to just throw those stories out you would be just fine. Since many scriptures are ignored now, why not ignore a few more?
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Go back and re-read that section of the discussion.Semaj said that if the claims in the film were proved true, it would prove that Christianity is BS and he would denounce his faith. By following the logical path of that statement, I think it's fair to assume that he means if the physical resurrection were proved true, Christianity is BS and he would denounce. I think that's a fair assumption because that's the exact situation we were talking about when he made the statement. He also said (I believe in that same post) that if Jesus wasn't physically resurrected then he is not divine (again I'm paraphrasing here).Now explain to me how that statement can coexist with the one you said you agree with about the physical body being irrelevant without being contradictory.
Hang on there! You're being a little creative with what people have said to try to incite argument. I didn't say anything about the film's claims and their affect on Christianity. I said that if the Resurrection is a sham so is the rest of the faith. The film that this thread is about has no bearing what-so-ever on that.I will state again that the resurrection of Jesus' worldly bodily is completely irrelevant to the both the divinity of Christ and Christianity as a whole.I can see how the timing of my comments may have led you astray but I'm certainly not claiming anything of the importance of a "phyiscal" resurrection and never intended to.Edit - Moreover, who is to say that Jesus wasn't resurrected in body, made the appearances in that form so that people would recognize Him and then left His body behind after the Ascention? It's not really that much of a stretch. In fact, in order for the Cameron film to be true something like this would have to have happened. Jesus was most certainly not buried in an ossuary like these bodies were found.
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