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James Cameron Finds Jesus


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"but all things being equal, which do you think gives us more precise information, bone boxes or written records? The written records, obviously"that was making sense up until this incorrect statement and pretty much everything he said after that. funny to read a christian pointing out that the conclusions reached in the documentary are unscientific (which is mostly true), and then make the ludicrous claim that conclusions based on 2000-year-old written metaphysical claims ARE scientific. typical double standard.

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I actually agree with most of that and I really think that's how the filmmaker is using this film: as a catalyst to examination. However, I gotta comment on these 2 things:Jesus’ family was a poor family from Nazareth, not a middle- to upper-class family from Jerusalem. So this tomb is the wrong kind of tomb located in the wrong city.There are a lot of Theologians and Historians who disagree with this so called fact. Truth is, we don't really know if Jesus' family was poor and some of the evidence seems to suggest there might have been wealth there or at the very least that wealthy supporters definitely made every day life considerably easier for Jesus.What we have here are two different characterizations of what happened to the body of Jesus of Nazareth 2,000 years ago. One is based on artifacts—the ossuaries—and one is based on documents—the historical records of Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Peter and Paul. Now granted, these kinds of things are not entirely exact science, but all things being equal, which do you think gives us more precise information, bone boxes or written records? The written records, obviously.Bone boxes AINEC.

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"but all things being equal, which do you think gives us more precise information, bone boxes or written records? The written records, obviously"that was making sense up until this incorrect statement and pretty much everything he said after that. funny to read a christian pointing out that the conclusions reached in the documentary are unscientific (which is mostly true), and then make the ludicrous claim that conclusions based on 2000-year-old written metaphysical claims ARE scientific. typical double standard.
I definately dont think that was his point and i think you are lookin for flaws in this from a guy who quite a well known apologetic and who is more than willing to discuss with anybody having been on BBC and pbs type shows that are definately slanted against christianity. I would assume his point was that we have a box of bones with a name on it that doesnt tell any story. That alone doesnt give us anything to work with does it? Its a box of bones with 3 of the most common jewish names of that time period and b/c of that we cant really get much more from teh bones. Now if you hold the historical aspect of the bible to be true then it is going to give you a better understand of that time period. That is merely his point
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Watched my tape of the show finally and - wow - this was even a bigger piece of crap than I expected it to be. No provenance, no chain of custody, no anything whatsoever that can show these ossuarries were the actual ones found together, kept together, examined for inscriptions when first acquired, photographed - nothin. Not a scientist to be found anywhere (though the plumber may qualify, I have great respect for plumbers) incredibly misleading, no part of any inscription had a bit of authentication.........though I think my biggest laugh was the Aramaic spelling of the Latin pronunciation of a Hebrew name. Or maybe it was the unaccessioned bone frags from only two of the ossuaries that are somehow supposed to prove......now wait, if there were bone frags in the ossuarries, why not test them all for relatedness - and isn't it wonderful that if there were not frags from the other ones at least there were from the two they most wanted to test.....of course, there are tons of bone frags in the collections departments of museums and archeo- or paleo- storage areas - just lying around.... whew! Good thing we have that very secure and strictly maintained chain of custody for the osuarrries....oh wait.....that's right....we don't.....or idea where any of it came from or how the inscriptions came to be or when they were made.....why....this is all.....just.................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................. *

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Addendum to what I originally said for more clarity and because I've since looked it up:The verse I was thinking about that said the faith would be in vain was 1 Corinthians 15: 13-14: "But if there is no resurrection of the dead, not even Christ has been raised; and if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is vain, your faith also is vain."
The great theological debate of the time, especially around Jerusalem that was a crossroads for so many peoples as a trade station that most of the belief systems of that time were known there, was whether there was an afterlife, whether there was reincarnation, whether there was anything at all. The Jews were fractured over the issue and the Greek-Romam version of afterlife (the one we are presently stuck with as Chirtsians) was in direct opposition to Jewish beliefs and a lot of the Modern Greek-speaking Jews were starting to fall away form the old beliefs.What Jesus aid was this: "Life is eternal, (He does not "grant" it, it already is that) here is what happens and how you have the power to make the outcome what you wish." Jesus assurred people of eternal life, of love, joy and gave the formula for getting there in as direct a way as possible. The old school was still teaching there was no afterlife - just a sort of long drawn out coma kind of state from which perhaps one day we might be awakened. Jesus said, "Nah - you'll be alive and well and with my over there right away." What Paul was doing was assurring everyone that it really wasn't about any rules of the road Jesus taught, it was that "WE teach Christ crucified! He is Alive! Now!" And Paul would know, since Jesus chatted him up now and again. Once people know life is eternal, the rest falls into place. Then and now.
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I definately dont think that was his point and i think you are lookin for flaws in this from a guy who quite a well known apologetic and who is more than willing to discuss with anybody having been on BBC and pbs type shows that are definately slanted against christianity.
i'm not looking for flaws - just pointing an obvious double standard he's using.
That alone doesnt give us anything to work with does it?
no, but as far science is concerned in proving the divinity of jesus, neither does the bible itself. that's the double standard.
Now if you hold the historical aspect of the bible to be true then it is going to give you a better understand of that time period. That is merely his point
"If Christianity stands or falls on the historical fact of Jesus’ resurrection, as the Apostle Paul said, then Christ’s followers have no liberty to retreat behind blind faith or hide behind an angry scowl"seems more like his point is scientific evidence (historical anthropology) must have relevance to modern christian belief. he's inferring that the standards of science by which he's discounting the documentary can also be used to support christian belief, which is just dumb.
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i thought the most interesting part was that they seem to have uncovered archeological evidence that mary magdalene was hot.[/quote Lol. That was good. My take? Overhyped crock, hollywood type stunt. People bought it, and worried about the idea because- here is one for you- people, on baoth sides of the argument, are largely stupid. Most are sheep, just waiting to be led.
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speaking of hot things on TV, did you see episode 7 (the latest) of Rome on HBO?
I haven't seen an episode of Rome. I've seen snippets of it here and there and it looks interesting but I'd like to catch it from the beginning and, well, that ship has already sailed.
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The great theological debate of the time, especially around Jerusalem that was a crossroads for so many peoples as a trade station that most of the belief systems of that time were known there, was whether there was an afterlife, whether there was reincarnation, whether there was anything at all. The Jews were fractured over the issue and the Greek-Romam version of afterlife (the one we are presently stuck with as Chirtsians) was in direct opposition to Jewish beliefs and a lot of the Modern Greek-speaking Jews were starting to fall away form the old beliefs.What Jesus aid was this: "Life is eternal, (He does not "grant" it, it already is that) here is what happens and how you have the power to make the outcome what you wish." Jesus assurred people of eternal life, of love, joy and gave the formula for getting there in as direct a way as possible. The old school was still teaching there was no afterlife - just a sort of long drawn out coma kind of state from which perhaps one day we might be awakened. Jesus said, "Nah - you'll be alive and well and with my over there right away." What Paul was doing was assurring everyone that it really wasn't about any rules of the road Jesus taught, it was that "WE teach Christ crucified! He is Alive! Now!" And Paul would know, since Jesus chatted him up now and again. Once people know life is eternal, the rest falls into place. Then and now.
Thanks for all the clarification about what you think Paul meant but that wasn't my question.The question is a simple one that I'm not asking for evidence or proof of, just what your personal belief is and why.Here it is again. It's a "what if". I'm not saying that I believe anything has or hasn't been proven through this film. It's just an extension of the path the film started us down:If it were somehow proven to your satisfaction that Jesus was not literally resurrected in whole form and human body, would that change your faith or what you believe today in any way at all? I pose this question to anyone who wants to take time to answer.
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If it were somehow proven to your satisfaction that Jesus was not literally resurrected in whole form and human body, would that change your faith or what you believe today in any way at all?
No. While I believe it is possible in a kind of zenquantumechanical way for Jesus' body to have disappeared along with Him, I don't think it did and never have. And while it is also possible that God just caused the body to disappear, I don't think that happened either and never have. As you asked for what poeple personally believe: death is the process by which one separates from their body, a process that ends when the separation is complete. After people have died they can appear to those still here as beings of flesh and blood because you see, smell, feel and hear with the brain, not the sense organs. When Jesus appeared to His disciples after His death, being so infinitely strong a spirit, He would have seemed absolutely real and as He had been in life. And so it was believed His body was with Him in heaven, and therefore, must have disappeared. I believe there are elements of fact in the narratives of finding the empty tomb, especially in the conversation between Jesus and Magdalene. I just think the empty tomb part was added on.
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No. While I believe it is possible in a kind of zenquantumechanical way for Jesus' body to have disappeared along with Him, I don't think it did and never have. And while it is also possible that God just caused the body to disappear, I don't think that happened either and never have. As you asked for what poeple personally believe: death is the process by which one separates from their body, a process that ends when the separation is complete. After people have died they can appear to those still here as beings of flesh and blood because you see, smell, feel and hear with the brain, not the sense organs. When Jesus appeared to His disciples after His death, being so infinitely strong a spirit, He would have seemed absolutely real and as He had been in life. And so it was believed His body was with Him in heaven, and therefore, must have disappeared. I believe there are elements of fact in the narratives of finding the empty tomb, especially in the conversation between Jesus and Magdalene. I just think the empty tomb part was added on.
That is the response I would have expected. What prompted the question was the Ted Koppel round table discussion after the show. In that discussion the guy from Dallas (the balding guy with the gray beard) said something to the effect of if the literal resurrection were proven untrue it would end Christianity as we know it. I don't think that's true. I believe that most Christians believe that faith in the fact that Jesus was the Messiah is what holds Christianity together and that Christianity could adapt to a non-literal resurrection. So far, in posing that question to numerous people, I have yet to find one who agrees with that so called expert that it would change Christianity in any major way.
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That is the response I would have expected. What prompted the question was the Ted Koppel round table discussion after the show. In that discussion the guy from Dallas (the balding guy with the gray beard) said something to the effect of if the literal resurrection were proven untrue it would end Christianity as we know it. I don't think that's true. I believe that most Christians believe that faith in the fact that Jesus was the Messiah is what holds Christianity together and that Christianity could adapt to a non-literal resurrection. So far, in posing that question to numerous people, I have yet to find one who agrees with that so called expert that it would change Christianity in any major way.
I think the whole died,buried and rose from the dead thing would keep them hanging on. Remember, he hung out for a bit after he rose. I will never understand the burning desire of people that don't agree with christianity have to disprove it. Christianity, in it's correct form, is harmless- it's about change of self via self- sacrifice, as commanded by God. If you don't believe in God, why would it bother you that someone did? Why so hateful and spiteful?
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I think the whole died,buried and rose from the dead thing would keep them hanging on. Remember, he hung out for a bit after he rose. I will never understand the burning desire of people that don't agree with christianity have to disprove it. Christianity, in it's correct form, is harmless- it's about change of self via self- sacrifice, as commanded by God. If you don't believe in God, why would it bother you that someone did? Why so hateful and spiteful?
I think you're misunderstanding the situation. This wasn't someone wanting to disprove Christianity. This was a guy who is a Dean of Theology. He was on your side.
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I think you're misunderstanding the situation. This wasn't someone wanting to disprove Christianity. This was a guy who is a Dean of Theology. He was on your side.
But the ressurection is the thing that makes jesus the actual messiah and 'special' compared to all the other profits of his day, so actually yes, if the ressurection were proven to be false, Christianity wouldn't have a leg to stand on and Jesus would just be another regular old profit who did a lot of teaching, and had followers, etc.
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But the ressurection is the thing that makes jesus the actual messiah and 'special' compared to all the other profits of his day, so actually yes, if the ressurection were proven to be false, Christianity wouldn't have a leg to stand on and Jesus would just be another regular old profit who did a lot of teaching, and had followers, etc.
That's what this guy was saying but I just don't see it that way. The Christians I know aren't that rigid with their faith. We've changed the rules and changed the religion to incorporate what science says is true over the years and I think this is another one of those things that Christianity would adapt to with a little tweaking and "metaphoricalizing" (yep I just made that up, cool, huh?) to the resurrection story.What I'm being told by people who've answered the question is that it wouldn't matter.If it wouldn't matter, it won't go away.Buddhism is intended to be just a philosophy but most people don't realize that and treat it as a religion. Same thing here. Even if you want to say that spiritual resurrection takes away the divinity, I'm betting Christians would find something else to hang the divinity on and nothing would change in the big picture.
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That's what this guy was saying but I just don't see it that way. The Christians I know aren't that rigid with their faith. We've changed the rules and changed the religion to incorporate what science says is true over the years and I think this is another one of those things that Christianity would adapt to with a little tweaking and "metaphoricalizing" (yep I just made that up, cool, huh?) to the resurrection story.What I'm being told by people who've answered the question is that it wouldn't matter.If it wouldn't matter, it won't go away.Buddhism is intended to be just a philosophy but most people don't realize that and treat it as a religion. Same thing here. Even if you want to say that spiritual resurrection takes away the divinity, I'm betting Christians would find something else to hang the divinity on and nothing would change in the big picture.
If Jesus didn't rise from the dead the rest of Christianity is complete BS.
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Even if you want to say that spiritual resurrection takes away the divinity, I'm betting Christians would find something else to hang the divinity on and nothing would change in the big picture.
In that case, who is the flaw with? The christians, right?I'd like to hear from someone like lois, about his response to a scenario where it was proven beyond a reasonable doubt that the ressurection did NOT occur.
If Jesus didn't rise from the dead the rest of Christianity is complete BS.
EDIT: or semaj.This is more of the likely response that i would expect from a devout follower of christianity, that, and total denial.
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In that case, who is the flaw with? The christians, right?I'd like to hear from someone like lois, about his response to a scenario where it was proven beyond a reasonable doubt that the ressurection did NOT occur.
I wouldn't be a Christian, simple as that.
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If Jesus didn't rise from the dead the rest of Christianity is complete BS.
So what would happen if it were proven true? Would you no longer be Christian?*Edit - I see you answered that so nevermind. On to the next post....
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This is more of the likely response that i would expect from a devout follower of christianity, that, and total denial.
It's not the response I expected at all. The denial yes but the renouncing of faith no. It shocks me a little that the technical details of a particular miracle are more important than the ideals of love, hope, and faith.
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I think you're misunderstanding the situation. This wasn't someone wanting to disprove Christianity. This was a guy who is a Dean of Theology. He was on your side.
No, I get that. I was speaking in general. When the news of this story was brought to my attention by Yorke I went to the site that had reported it and they had a discussion link. I was amazed at how much different atheists were just crowing about the possibilities. They just were reveling in the idea of destroying Christianity. The question is, why? Why be bothered so much by something that should have no bearing on your life, because you don't believe it?
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