James Cameron Finds Jesus

[jmkiser 0]

then it should be very easy for u to disprove christianity beyond a shadow of doubt...since im just a humble idiot please enlighten me....o and fyi....From what i have seen and experienced...faith is what keeps a person coming back...it is rarely the sole erason somebody comes to christianity. But please teacher...teach

You are pretty ignorant.First off, it is impossible to disprove an ideal that humans create.Second, the burden of proof is on the people who make the claims. Christians make the claim that God exists. It is not a fact that it does. Christians have still yet to prove their religion just like every other."Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence" Carl SaganThe Bible is quite the extraordinary claim.

[Mattnxtc 0]

You are pretty ignorant.First off, it is impossible to disprove an ideal that humans create.Second, the burden of proof is on the people who make the claims. Christians make the claim that God exists. It is not a fact that it does. Christians have still yet to prove their religion just like every other."Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence" Carl SaganThe Bible is quite the extraordinary claim.

Im ignorant? really? you make a very uneducated post and then use a quote wrong hopin to look smart? Why does a christian make the claims they do? What does a christian use to back up his claims? It is up to u as the nonchristian to prove that evidence false...so far science doesnt...but nice try...come again

[BuffDan 0]

Im ignorant? really? you make a very uneducated post and then use a quote wrong hopin to look smart? Why does a christian make the claims they do? What does a christian use to back up his claims? It is up to u as the nonchristian to prove that evidence false...so far science doesnt...but nice try...come again

Ok, I am going to go down that path that we always go down... by your logic, it is up to you to disprove the flying spaghetti monster, or invisible pink unicorns or whatever. Can't disprove them eh? They must be there!Of course it is up to the person who says "God exists, he came to earth and he was resurrected" to show some proof of these outrageous claims.

[jmkiser 0]

Im ignorant? really? you make a very uneducated post and then use a quote wrong hopin to look smart? Why does a christian make the claims they do? What does a christian use to back up his claims? It is up to u as the nonchristian to prove that evidence false...so far science doesnt...but nice try...come again

Just like BuffDan said...ever heard of the Pink Unicorn religion? Or the flying spaghetti monster? Or the orbiting teacup? By your logic, why don't they exist?My post was educated and the quote was used correctly. Why does a Christian make the claims they do? There are a million reasons... community of the church, comfortability of the religion, fear of hell, etc.What does a Christian use to back up their claims? The Bible

[Mattnxtc 0]

Ok, I am going to go down that path that we always go down... by your logic, it is up to you to disprove the flying spaghetti monster, or invisible pink unicorns or whatever. Can't disprove them eh? They must be there!Of course it is up to the person who says "God exists, he came to earth and he was resurrected" to show some proof of these outrageous claims.

Just like BuffDan said...ever heard of the Pink Unicorn religion? Or the flying spaghetti monster? Or the orbiting teacup? By your logic, why don't they exist?My post was educated and the quote was used correctly. Why does a Christian make the claims they do? There are a million reasons... community of the church, comfortability of the religion, fear of hell, etc.What does a Christian use to back up their claims? The Bible

edit: if you had looked at any of the archives on this you could have saved urself the typinghmmm lets understand why your theories are so flawed shall we? First..ur "theories" are quite old and dumb and a very basic version of skepticism that is pointless b/c if u use this reasoning you cant really exclude anything ever as long as u can think of any scenerio that fits anyting. This of course means you can no nothing ever about anyting as long as anothe rpossibility exists. Meaning this may not actually be me and instead could be an alien in space pretneding to be me...you can never know...So do you see why the initial theory is worthless? If you choose to play it then you need to be prepared to use it for every scenerio and of course you wouldnt. Feel free to study up on it if u would likeSecond my rebuttal to this is quite simple:Of course all of those scnerios are just as logically possible as their being or not being a God...But so what? If i decide to use this reasoning then as i said i have to admit i have no knowledge of anyting around me...heck i cant even have knowledge that I as a person exist at this moment. So if u still want to use this argument go ahead...its pretty funny the extremes you have to go to in order to use it correct.But if you want to actually admit that we can go on sensory knowledge then all of a sudden the spagetti monster and pink unicorn fall away...nice try though

[Huffster 0]

I don't know what you mean, exactly. What beliefs? My belief that Xianity would blatantly ignore any evidence that Jesus was an ordinary man? Do you think that I think the Cameron actually has proven anything? because I don't. And I don't care. As far as I'm concerned, Jesus (if he existed at all, and I'd bet that he did) that he's 100 percent human, and died 2000 years ago. The burden of proof that he was divine rests on xians.

You're correct on all accounts. Jesus did exist. Jesus was 100% man. He did die 2000 years ago. It's what happened next, and the fact He was also 100% God, that men have argued about since.Let's start with the obvious: Yes I'm claiming that Jesus was capable of being both all man and all God. While a complete proof is not feasable in this space, I will offer the following illustration.Refer to the story of Solomon's Wise Judgement (I Kings 3:16-28). To summarize, two women came to Solomon both claiming to be the owner of some property. As both pressed their claim, Solomon resolved to settle the dispute by equally dividing the property giving half to each. Fair enough. One woman agreed, but the other immediately renounced her claim, which may seem odd, as the owner wouldn't renounce her claim under normal circumstances, and the non-owner, having just received a 'gift' of 1/2 of the asset, certainly wouldn't renounce her claim. Only when you consider that the asset was one woman's baby son do you realize that the mother--who renounced her claim upon learning of the judgement--understood that sometimes mathematics doesn't apply; that is, sometimes 1/2 + 1/2 does NOT equal one. Just so, what is 100% man is capable of being much much more. Mathematics is a useful approximation of reality, but it is not suitable to prove much of what we all agree is real, much less disprove what we dispute as being real. (To finish the story, the forfeited claim was the information Solomon, who obviously wouldn't have halved the child, was after to establish to whom the child belonged. No information exists regarding the fate of the false claimant.)I'm not asking that you believe Jesus was God, but only that you consider that it was possible.Now, I assume you've heard arguments supporting the resurrection, so I won't go in to it except to note it seems odd that eye witnesses to the 'supposed' resurrected Christ (does that word scare you?) accepted death rather than renounce their claims about Jesus when they were alone and in remote parts of the world--where renouncing their faith would not have been discovered by the others. One was cut in half. Peter crucified up-side-down. Mark was thrown off the Temple...one was skinned alive, for Christ's sake! We have these accounts from reliable, extra-biblical sources, so no discounting it because you think the bible is bogus, or whatever.Anyway, this discussion aside, what would you accept as proof?

[BigDMcGee 3,352]

then it should be very easy for u to disprove christianity beyond a shadow of doubt...since im just a humble idiot please enlighten me....o and fyi....From what i have seen and experienced...faith is what keeps a person coming back...it is rarely the sole erason somebody comes to christianity. But please teacher...teach

Did you read my post? I don't have any interest in proving that Jesus wasn't divine, anymore than I have in proving Unicorns don't exist. It's not part of the credo of what I believe to proselytize my believes to the world. But I'll tell you what, as soon as you prove that Muhammad isn't a prophet of god, I'll prove jesus isn't divine. And don't use "the bible tells me so" defense, please.

[BigDMcGee 3,352]

I'm not asking that you believe Jesus was God, but only that you consider that it was possible.Now, I assume you've heard arguments supporting the resurrection, so I won't go in to it except to note it seems odd that eye witnesses to the 'supposed' resurrected Christ (does that word scare you?) accepted death rather than renounce their claims about Jesus when they were alone and in remote parts of the world--where renouncing their faith would not have been discovered by the others. One was cut in half. Peter crucified up-side-down. Mark was thrown off the Temple...one was skinned alive, for Christ's sake! We have these accounts from reliable, extra-biblical sources, so no discounting it because you think the bible is bogus, or whatever.Anyway, this discussion aside, what would you accept as proof?

Hahahahahahah hahahhah no, i wouldn't. LOL Does the word "Christ" scare me. Please. I do NOT consider it possible that Jesus was god, I think this is a ridiculous claim. I don't think it's possible for a man to be god any more than I think it's possible for a man to be a centaur. You're going to have to show me a damn centaur if you're going to make me believe that.People have been martyred for many causes and many religions, none of it is proof of their causes and religions claims. David Koresh and his followers burned themselves alive, did this make Koresh the son of god? This retarded sht is why I don't come into the religion forums. S

[jmkiser 0]

edit: if you had looked at any of the archives on this you could have saved urself the typinghmmm lets understand why your theories are so flawed shall we? First..ur "theories" are quite old and dumb and a very basic version of skepticism that is pointless b/c if u use this reasoning you cant really exclude anything ever as long as u can think of any scenerio that fits anyting. This of course means you can no nothing ever about anyting as long as anothe rpossibility exists. Meaning this may not actually be me and instead could be an alien in space pretneding to be me...you can never know...So do you see why the initial theory is worthless? If you choose to play it then you need to be prepared to use it for every scenerio and of course you wouldnt. Feel free to study up on it if u would likeSecond my rebuttal to this is quite simple:Of course all of those scnerios are just as logically possible as their being or not being a God...But so what? If i decide to use this reasoning then as i said i have to admit i have no knowledge of anyting around me...heck i cant even have knowledge that I as a person exist at this moment. So if u still want to use this argument go ahead...its pretty funny the extremes you have to go to in order to use it correct.But if you want to actually admit that we can go on sensory knowledge then all of a sudden the spagetti monster and pink unicorn fall away...nice try though

It's quite hard to take you seriously with such abhorrent grammar issues. When you make a post, the little red squiggly line comes under certain text for a reason.My "theories" are not dumb. Any reasonable person can obviously realize that someone making a claim is who the burden of proof is on. If I tell you that the titans actually existed, I would be asked for my evidence and proof of which I would be able to provide none. Even if I had a few little nuances that might suggest I could possibly be onto something, no one would have any reason to believe it... let alone take it as absolute truth.And don't even start with the nonsense that I am claiming there is no god. There is no evidence that would suggest god does exist, therefore, there is nothing for me to claim in the first place other then "I don't know anymore then you do". (And please, oh wise one, if you have anything for me that I should take a couple looks at... please present it to me)My initial theory was never worthless and your attack is a philosophical argument that has always been debunked by reasonable people.... hell, it's even debunked by non-reasonable people, too.So you are saying that we know god by sensory knowledge? ... Interesting... here, I've got another bag of mushrooms in the car. Do you want to take those, too?

[ajs510 122]

So...James Cameron is God?I'm glad someone beat me to the whole DNA evidence regarding Jesus thing...that part kinda sticks out just a bit. People who actually believe that you can stick a dead guy in a cave, throw a giant boulder in front of it, and 2000 some-odd years later he'll just turn up to say "Hi" deserve to have the Titanic guy rain fire and brimstone all over their parade every now and then.

[jmkiser 0]

So...James Cameron is God?I'm glad someone beat me to the whole DNA evidence regarding Jesus thing...that part kinda sticks out just a bit. People who actually believe that you can stick a dead guy in a cave, throw a giant boulder in front of it, and 2000 some-odd years later he'll just turn up to say "Hi" deserve to have the Titanic guy rain fire and brimstone all over their parade every now and then.

Funny that God loves us so much that he killed his only son for our sins when he had the power all this time to just... forgive us for our sins without needless bloodshed.But I'm sorry, I just wouldn't understand.

[BigDMcGee 3,352]

That whole "Christ ( does that word scare you)? " thing is really one of the hugest bones I have to pick with xianity. Xianity, time and time again uses fear to convert people. I myself was so terrified of descriptions of hell at my church camp that I converted when I was 10. The church, rather than presenting a logical, reasonable argument for the existence of god and Jesus's divinity, instead uses the threat of eternal damnation ( which is, if you think about, just about the worst thing ever) as a way to convert you and to keep you in line. The hell threat scare tactics I find a particularly disgusting part of Xianity. If you're going to convince me that god exists, try something other than guilt and fear.

[Huffster 0]

That whole "Christ ( does that word scare you)? " thing is really one of the hugest bones I have to pick with xianity. Xianity, time and time again uses fear to convert people. I myself was so terrified of descriptions of hell at my church camp that I converted when I was 10. The church, rather than presenting a logical, reasonable argument for the existence of god and Jesus's divinity, instead uses the threat of eternal damnation ( which is, if you think about, just about the worst thing ever) as a way to convert you and to keep you in line. The hell threat scare tactics I find a particularly disgusting part of Xianity. If you're going to convince me that god exists, try something other than guilt and fear.

The question ( does that word scare you)? was a passing thought and in retrospect a bad idea. It certainly wasn't meant as an affront. You have to admit you're quite religious in your use of the "X", though you type 'jesus' often enough--I recognize the difference and get your point.Anyways, don't let that trip you up. You seem reasonably intelligent; I thought I'd start a dialog.But, we're going to have to agree on a reasonable standard of proof (i.e. something less ridiculous than centaurs lol). If you'd like to take this off-line, I'd be happy to give you my email address.

[BigDMcGee 3,352]

The question ( does that word scare you)? was a passing thought and in retrospect a bad idea. It certainly wasn't meant as an affront. You have to admit you're quite religious in your use of the "X", though you type 'jesus' often enough--I recognize the difference and get your point.Anyways, don't let that trip you up. You seem reasonably intelligent; I thought I'd start a dialog.But, we're going to have to agree on a reasonable standard of proof (i.e. something less ridiculous than centaurs lol). If you'd like to take this off-line, I'd be happy to give you my email address.

See, that's my point. I find the idea of jesus, of a man, being divine to be MORE Ridiculous than centaurs. I use Xianity because I'm lazy, X is, as I'm sure you know, was a latin symbol for christ. And also, I suppose, their's a hint of derision in the usage. I politely decline giving out my email address, I have no desire to be privately prosthyletized to. As for what would make me believe? Well, seeing some holes in some hands would help.

[Huffster 0]

See, that's my point. I find the idea of jesus, of a man, being divine to be MORE Ridiculous than centaurs. I use Xianity because I'm lazy, X is, as I'm sure you know, was a latin symbol for christ. And also, I suppose, their's a hint of derision in the usage. I politely decline giving out my email address, I have no desire to be privately prosthyletized to. As for what would make me believe? Well, seeing some holes in some hands would help.

Don't misunderstand--I'm not trying to argue you into the faith, which is quite impossible for anyone to do or to accept. I spent 23 years of my life (dis)believing as you do and was just interested in your opinions. My posts above were meant to serve as a credible starting point. So far we know what you don't believe, but other than your opinion of soteriology, not what you do believe. So, what is your worldview? For instance, your views of things like creation and epistemology? What/who would you consider a credible source to establish a moral framework?

[11 to 1 0]

See, that's my point. I find the idea of jesus, of a man, being divine to be MORE Ridiculous than centaurs. ....

That's too bad, it means you are missing your own holiness. But maybe not. Isaac Asimov was an incredibly spiritual guy and quite the dedicated atheist.

[BigDMcGee 3,352]

That's too bad, it means you are missing your own holiness. But maybe not. Isaac Asimov was an incredibly spiritual guy and quite the dedicated atheist.

hippy.

[Mattnxtc 0]

Did you read my post? I don't have any interest in proving that Jesus wasn't divine, anymore than I have in proving Unicorns don't exist. It's not part of the credo of what I believe to proselytize my believes to the world. But I'll tell you what, as soon as you prove that Muhammad isn't a prophet of god, I'll prove jesus isn't divine. And don't use "the bible tells me so" defense, please.

again the problem isnt that i have to prove anything...but u still havent learned

[BigDMcGee 3,352]

again the problem isnt that i have to prove anything...but u still havent learned

of course you don't HAVE to prove anything.. But it sure would be fun, wouldn't it? You prove muhammed isn't god's prophet, and I'll prove jesus isn't divine. You first.

[BigDMcGee 3,352]

again the problem isnt that i have to prove anything...but u still havent learned

Also, I'd like to know how closely related your parents are. It's for a wager. jmkiser set the over/under at "2nd cousin" and I took 200 bucks on the under.

[Mattnxtc 0]

It's quite hard to take you seriously with such abhorrent grammar issues. When you make a post, the little red squiggly line comes under certain text for a reason.My "theories" are not dumb. Any reasonable person can obviously realize that someone making a claim is who the burden of proof is on. If I tell you that the titans actually existed, I would be asked for my evidence and proof of which I would be able to provide none. Even if I had a few little nuances that might suggest I could possibly be onto something, no one would have any reason to believe it... let alone take it as absolute truth.And don't even start with the nonsense that I am claiming there is no god. There is no evidence that would suggest god does exist, therefore, there is nothing for me to claim in the first place other then "I don't know anymore then you do". (And please, oh wise one, if you have anything for me that I should take a couple looks at... please present it to me)My initial theory was never worthless and your attack is a philosophical argument that has always been debunked by reasonable people.... hell, it's even debunked by non-reasonable people, too.So you are saying that we know god by sensory knowledge? ... Interesting... here, I've got another bag of mushrooms in the car. Do you want to take those, too?

O yes my grammar is just miserable..I forgot i was writing for english class and not on an online forum. I do have a question though...in english class didnt they teach you that you need to actually answer the question to get credit as opposed to putting bs on the page and hopin to pass? What I do enjoy most about being on this forum is when people like you come on..spout stuff and then when u get looked up u retreat to personal attacks and trying to shift the conversation. You arent the first and wont be the last. So lets look at ur post since i actually do try to answer posts: 1. My claim is backed by my evidence...If i want to learn about christianity from that era...is there a better place then the bible? nope...sounds like a pretty reasonable thing to do. Its up to you to prove that the bible is wrong and of course you cant do that. If you claim the hercules is holding up the earth...what would i do? Show you a picture of the earth in space to show you that that it isnt true...hmmm looks like i had to show you...but again..quite simple..not an english class so maybe you missed it2. Second problem with your example is that it doesnt fit the requirements of knowledge still..but since you like to claim you know what im talkin about ill let you think about that one.3. Where exactly in my post did I say you were claiming no God? Take another look if you need to. In fact youll see that i actually agreed with you on all ur theories you tried to use against me. 4. Now the rest of this is just funny...No evidence eh? I think the fact that we are living right now has to lend to the possibility that there was an intelligent designer. But please again feel free to show the science that says im wrong...ill wait as long as you need. Clock designer comes to mind so ill let you look into that one tooSo again you are left here with nothing...but at least I gave you an idea of how to actually answer someone instead of the bs u gave...o and im sorry that my grammar was just so awful for you

[BigDMcGee 3,352]

here are my last (serious) thoughts on this subject. All further posts in this thread will be cruel mocking ones like my last post. Matt tells me that it's up to me, the atheist, to prove that xianity isn't true. Problem is, I'm not an atheist. I don't believe their is a god, but I don't believe their is no god. I really have no idea one way or the other if their is a god or not. I only see things in terms of their probability. And is see that the bible being truth to be highly improbable. Why do I think this? Primarily due to the supernatural nature to many of the stories that take place in the bible. From pretty much all of genesis( I can concede that genesis is allegorical, although I don't know that many xians would make that concession) to moses' various miracles, to jacob wrestling an angel, to the numerous miracles of jesus including walking on water, water into wine, raising the dead, and being resurrected himself. All of these miracles described in the old and new testament fall SO far outside the realm of both my scientific knowledge and my personal experience with reality. I have seen nothing in my life that would lead me to believe that any of those miracles are possible. So if you want me to believe that the impossible is possible, have some proof. I need to see a miracle, basically. I need to see water into wine, or some raised from the dead, or something that defies the laws of science to such a degree that there can be no other explanation other than the supernatural. If you cannot show me something like that, or come up with some other way of proving that these miracles did infact happen, than I'm going to have to handicap the bible being revealed and literal word of god somewhere around winning the lottery type odds. I see no evidence that the Bible is any more or less likely to be true than the Koran or the Torah or the book of mormon or the book of urantia or the vedas or any other mythical religion.

[jmkiser 0]

O yes my grammar is just miserable..I forgot i was writing for english class and not on an online forum. I do have a question though...in english class didnt they teach you that you need to actually answer the question to get credit as opposed to putting bs on the page and hopin to pass? What I do enjoy most about being on this forum is when people like you come on..spout stuff and then when u get looked up u retreat to personal attacks and trying to shift the conversation. You arent the first and wont be the last. So lets look at ur post since i actually do try to answer posts: 1. My claim is backed by my evidence...If i want to learn about christianity from that era...is there a better place then the bible? nope...sounds like a pretty reasonable thing to do. Its up to you to prove that the bible is wrong and of course you cant do that. If you claim the hercules is holding up the earth...what would i do? Show you a picture of the earth in space to show you that that it isnt true...hmmm looks like i had to show you...but again..quite simple..not an english class so maybe you missed it2. Second problem with your example is that it doesnt fit the requirements of knowledge still..but since you like to claim you know what im talkin about ill let you think about that one.3. Where exactly in my post did I say you were claiming no God? Take another look if you need to. In fact youll see that i actually agreed with you on all ur theories you tried to use against me. 4. Now the rest of this is just funny...No evidence eh? I think the fact that we are living right now has to lend to the possibility that there was an intelligent designer. But please again feel free to show the science that says im wrong...ill wait as long as you need. Clock designer comes to mind so ill let you look into that one tooSo again you are left here with nothing...but at least I gave you an idea of how to actually answer someone instead of the bs u gave...o and im sorry that my grammar was just so awful for you

I think I set the o/u way too high. Damn me for giving the benefit of the doubt.1. Your claim still isn't backed up by any evidence. Bible =/= evidence that Christianity is absolute truth. Noah's ark? Impossible. We could go on and on.2. What the hell are you talking about? Are you talking about how I said a person making a claim has to back it up? Even if you are, who knows what you're saying?3. "And don't even start with the nonsense that I am claiming there is no god." Again, knowledge in English would let you know that I recognize you haven't gone to that area yet and that I'm warning you not to.4. The fact that we are all living here is not evidence. Clock designer argument has been debunked ever since it existed.And I am left with nothing? You have to be the dumbest one yet to cross these forums... who knows... I must be newer. Can any of the old regulars tell me if there is anyone worse then him?

[Loismustdie 0]

I think I set the o/u way too high. Damn me for giving the benefit of the doubt.1. Your claim still isn't backed up by any evidence. Bible =/= evidence that Christianity is absolute truth. Noah's ark? Impossible. We could go on and on.2. What the hell are you talking about? Are you talking about how I said a person making a claim has to back it up? Even if you are, who knows what you're saying?3. "And don't even start with the nonsense that I am claiming there is no god." Again, knowledge in English would let you know that I recognize you haven't gone to that area yet and that I'm warning you not to.4. The fact that we are all living here is not evidence. Clock designer argument has been debunked ever since it existed.And I am left with nothing? You have to be the dumbest one yet to cross these forums... who knows... I must be newer. Can any of the old regulars tell me if there is anyone worse then him?

I like to think that I am, but actually Matt is an old dog, he has been here for a long time. You should do some looking into old threads- this stuff was argued long ago, with much better foe(CrowTrobot,Canada,LongLiveYork,etc.) Notice, they don't even bother anymore, everything has been said about these things that can be possibly said, and as much as can be done we all understand where the other is coming from- we may not agree, but we know where they stand, which is really all you can accomplish in a disagreement such as this.

[Mattnxtc 0]

here are my last (serious) thoughts on this subject. All further posts in this thread will be cruel mocking ones like my last post. Matt tells me that it's up to me, the atheist, to prove that xianity isn't true. Problem is, I'm not an atheist. I don't believe their is a god, but I don't believe their is no god. I really have no idea one way or the other if their is a god or not. I only see things in terms of their probability. And is see that the bible being truth to be highly improbable. Why do I think this? Primarily due to the supernatural nature to many of the stories that take place in the bible. From pretty much all of genesis( I can concede that genesis is allegorical, although I don't know that many xians would make that concession) to moses' various miracles, to jacob wrestling an angel, to the numerous miracles of jesus including walking on water, water into wine, raising the dead, and being resurrected himself. All of these miracles described in the old and new testament fall SO far outside the realm of both my scientific knowledge and my personal experience with reality. I have seen nothing in my life that would lead me to believe that any of those miracles are possible. So if you want me to believe that the impossible is possible, have some proof. I need to see a miracle, basically. I need to see water into wine, or some raised from the dead, or something that defies the laws of science to such a degree that there can be no other explanation other than the supernatural. If you cannot show me something like that, or come up with some other way of proving that these miracles did infact happen, than I'm going to have to handicap the bible being revealed and literal word of god somewhere around winning the lottery type odds. I see no evidence that the Bible is any more or less likely to be true than the Koran or the Torah or the book of mormon or the book of urantia or the vedas or any other mythical religion.

Big Mcdee...Why is it that you new people seem to be so offended? heck i miss the crow and tim as at least they realized that its all good fun and willing to come back...As for miracles and science do you see a problem with relying on science to prove a miracle? By definition a miracle is something that science cannot explain...hence it is a miracle...do you see the problem with wanting science to back miracles? Are somethings in the OT hard to believe? Sure they are...If there is a God, isnt it possible that he helped them? Of course..who knows..we are always on the search to prove/disprove things in the bible.