Interesting Nl He Cash Game Hand.. Thoughts Would Be Appreciated

[ButTheyWereSuited.com 0]

was playing in a rather volatile home game almost straight out of rounders the other night. i make the rounders comparison because the game was loaded with judges, attorneys and other deep pocketed individuals...the game set up was simple. 9 handed, $250 min/max buy in. $1/$2 NLHE only. this was my second time playing in this newly set up game, and felt i had a pretty good read on all the villains after a 4 hour 1st session, and about 4.5 hours into session 2.we had been playing about 4.5 hours and the game was called to be over at 12:30am. the time was 12:20am i was in mid position, and by now we were seven handed. action is folded to me, i look down and see the A4cc. standard raise was $7 - $20 in this action game, so i made it $7 to go expecting to see some good action as it was nearing the end of the night and some were stuck a bit, others were up quite a bit. (sitting on about $500- i was about $30 up at this point, after a couple of tough stack depleting beats.) rock solid tight opponent a to my left calls the $7 cold with about $95 or so back. 2 more players go out. loosey, goosey aggressive, any 2 will do, but has a strong knowledge of the game button calls the $7. small blind green as they come, no rhyme or reason aggressor pops it to $25 leaving only $45 or so back. bb folds action to me. i start hemming and hawing, doin math out loud on the implied odds of his $45 going in on the flop no matter what, and eventually call the $17 more expecting the other 2 players still in the hand to follow suit and call. much to my surprise player a pushes in his stack. after he calls the $25 he only has about $70 back. i had watched him do this play once before holding a K,Qo on a similar squeeze play attempt. so already in my mind i plan on callin his $70 since i was already lookin to call off the small blinds $45 or so. well to add more confusion to the situation, the button aggressive maniac with good poker skills comes over the top of player a. after he calls the $18 from the sb idiot raise, and player a's repop of $70, it leaves him with just above $400 and it all goes in. the sb maniac folds(!?) somehow and it is back to me. this is where i go deep into the tank. normally i would not think twice about making a fold with A4 suited in this situation. but nothing about the way the remaining two opponents hand play made sense to me. since both of those 2 were all in, i start tanking out loud. i declare that i believe player a is holding K,Qo based on previous type of play. i say aloud again- and if you are in fact holding that K,Q im pretty sure the small blind prob folded J,Q or K,J or something to that affect- so there could be more of your potential outs gone. I then begin to break down player b's hand aloud. "if you had A5 - AT i dont see why you would try to squeeze me out of this pot against player a. you would need my action for a potential side pot. and if you had AJ-AK, based on your play throughout the past 2 sessions you woulda repopped me especially on the button to get rid of the blinds. so i dont think you have my A dominated. and if you had a real pocket pair, again previously you had repopped the raiser to see where you were at if you had position as you do now. so the only hand i can truly put you on is a drawing hand that you want to be heads up against player a- figuring him to have 2 overs to your 9,Tsuited or 7,8suited. i also put you as a good enough player to know since i only have $25 invested so far it would be near impossible for me to make a call of $470 with whatever hand i held based on my hemming and hawing you prob dont figure me that strong"so after much deliberation i make the $70 call for player a's all in, and then make the $400 call that had me covered by only $1.player a as predicted did hold the K,Q off. player b held 5d,8d.(consequently- maniac sb says aloud he folded Q,T)i flip up my A4cc and pray to hold.flop brings K and 2 diamonds. the lovely As hits the turn. brick on the river. my hand holds. i scoop the roughly $1100 pot and the game is over at 12:30am as planned.half the guys said nice read, good call. player a echos that. player b and a friend say nice read, bad call.i truly trusted my read on the situation and figured at worst i was about 60-40 favorite to either hand for the main pot or side pot.who was right? who is wrong? in a different game against a different group of players im sure i would lay my A4cc down without a second thought. but this one just felt right.please could use some intelligent thoughts on the situation.thanks,KG

[outsider13 0]

I would fold preflop, probably fold on the raise, definitely fold on the squeeze. That's just me though. I hate confrontations like this, unless I actually have good cards. But, it sounds like you can read players like a pro, so do whatever works.

[Acid_Knight 2]

Where to start?Umm, don't raise A4 suited in EP. Don't call a reraise from a player who is OOP when 2 other players have already shown interest in the pot. Don't call $400 preflop with A4 in a 3 way pot.The odds that your hand is best are VERY slim heads up, let alone against 2 opponents. A hand as weak as A7o or 55 has you in pretty bad shape. There is no reason to call here.Against those 2 hands, your equity is about 37%, compared to 33% for KQ and 30% for 85. That's a pretty slim edge and that's about the ONLY situation where you're ever in good shape.This hand should have been folded when the pot as reraised by a player who had put in half of his stack. You should've lost $7 and not won $1100 on the hand.It looks like a brilliant play because it worked out, but I really think that you got insanely lucky not only to be up against 2 trashy hands like that, but also to not lose the pot since if either of them flops a pair, you only have 1 overcard.

[ButTheyWereSuited.com 0]

Where to start?Umm, don't raise A4 suited in EP. Don't call a reraise from a player who is OOP when 2 other players have already shown interest in the pot. Don't call $400 preflop with A4 in a 3 way pot.It looks like a brilliant play because it worked out, but I really think that you got insanely lucky not only to be up against 2 trashy hands like that, but also to not lose the pot since if either of them flops a pair, you only have 1 overcard.

"does having trust in your read justify making a call for all of your chips"hey knight. 1st off i want to thank you for taking the time to read my long winded post. if you read the subheading as i just requoted here, my main thought process in posting this is whether trusting your read in a situation justifies making a crazy call like i did in this situation. i hope you thoroughly read my hand description as i put a lot of thought in the hand is it went down and also a lot in retyping it all out. what was missed by you i feel is that not only was i not just thinking of my crappy A4cc as the hand played itself out, but i was constantly thinking and focusing on the play as it unfolded and what hands my opponents could be holding. not trying to toot my own horn in the least bit, but as it turned out the hands were dead on the money based on my reads. and in trusting my reads (even the holding of the maniac sb weird raise) i figured to be 60-40 favorite against either..perhaps more if in fact sb maniac folded some of player a's needed outs.for you to say i was extremely lucky to be facing those 2 holdings- i beg to disagree. i made it very clear how i came to the conclusion of their holdings, and as it turned out i was right.so to ask again- if you have trust in your reads of your opponents hands and are facing an essential even money pot odds situation, could the 60-40 edge justify the play?this is not a tournament mind you. my tourney game would never have even seen a flop with the A4 in that middle position most likely. but this is a cash game filled with somewhat easy to pick apart players and personalities.the real question i want answered is- if you cant trust your read and go for it when in a big pot then what is the difference whether it is a small pot or a big pot? anyway- really not trying to be combative or defensive, just want to make sure y'all know this was a truly thought out situation and call, and not just some random "but they were suited" potential donk off with any old suited ace.thanks again,kg

[Jordan 1]

ok, am I a ****** for loling when I read about this "deep pocketed" game, that had a max buy in of 250?And then not reading the rest of the post?- Jordan

[ButTheyWereSuited.com 0]

ok, am I a ****** for loling when I read about this "deep pocketed" game, that had a max buy in of 250?And then not reading the rest of the post?- Jordan

lol jordan... please take the time to read the post and give some intelligent insight. this game was set up by these guys to have a fun home game vibe. none are looking to go too crazy on each other as it truly is just a friendly "nobody gets too stung at end of the night" home game.the reason i mentioned about the deep pockets was to let people know that at those stakes, the potential win/loss factor of the majority of the players would not have major affect on their well being. that factor also led to my eventual call of one of the more deep pocketed fellas (player B ).

[Acid_Knight 2]

Trusting your read that a player has 2 big cards and you're gonna make a big call with pocket 5s is one thing. Calling the all ins of 2 players with a hand as weak and easily dominated as A4 is a whole different story. I'm sure you had excellent reads and everything, but to put 2 other players on crap that A4 is ahead of is pretty rare.A4 is so bad that you could be against 2 other random hands and still not be a money favorite in the pot.For example, here are win percentages from 2 hands that you actually are beating preflop.A 4 33%J T 39%6 7 28%You're not a money favorite to win the pot, yet you're against J high and 7 high. That's the point I'm trying to make. You had basically no hand whatsoever. If you're off even a little on your reads, you're crushed. Even if you're not off, you still might not even be the favorite to win the 3 way pot.That's why this hand is a fold. All of your long-winded explanations of how well you know the people can't make me believe that this is ever a good play to call here. Good reads or not, sometimes your hand is too weak to call and this is one of those situations.

[ButTheyWereSuited.com 0]

Trusting your read that a player has 2 big cards and you're gonna make a big call with pocket 5s is one thing. Calling the all ins of 2 players with a hand as weak and easily dominated as A4 is a whole different story. I'm sure you had excellent reads and everything, but to put 2 other players on crap that A4 is ahead of is pretty rare.A4 is so bad that you could be against 2 other random hands and still not be a money favorite in the pot.For example, here are win percentages from 2 hands that you actually are beating preflop.A 4 33%J T 39%6 7 28%You're not a money favorite to win the pot, yet you're against J high and 7 high. That's the point I'm trying to make. You had basically no hand whatsoever. If you're off even a little on your reads, you're crushed. Even if you're not off, you still might not even be the favorite to win the 3 way pot.That's why this hand is a fold. All of your long-winded explanations of how well you know the people can't make me believe that this is ever a good play to call here. Good reads or not, sometimes your hand is too weak to call and this is one of those situations.

one important factor you are not taking into consideration is the amount of money in the main pot vs what was in the side pot.the main pot i was invested $96 to win a pot that contained (96x3+25+2) $305, and then the side pot which would be the even money call- $400 to win $800. again if my reads turned out to be true id be favorite 38% vs 28% player b and 34% player a. however for the big side pot against just the one player b- i was in fact 60-40 favor.

[Naismith 0]

I'm going to agree with AK. This hand is so, so, so butchered.I don't think raising with A4 suited from EP in a full ring game is a profitable play.I don't think calling a re-raise from one of the blinds with A4 suited is a profitable play.I know, know, know, know, know, know, know that calling off 500 dollars with A4 suited is not a profitable play.First of all, I hate that you put the one dude on KQ because he made the same play with KQ earlier. That's great that you were correct, but would he have made the same play similarly valued hands like AT or AJ? What if his "bad push with a mediocre holding" was a hand like 66 or 77? By the way, I think shouldn't describe this person as "rock solid tight" anymore because that read was way off.Okay, as for the other player, this line makes no sense: "if you had A5 - AT i dont see why you would try to squeeze me out of this pot against player a". Obviously, Mr. Strong Knowledge of the Game would want to push you out with one of these hands. He knows he's a favorite against Definitely Has King-Queen and Only King-Queen. Regardless, he also could be doing this with a middle pair or a bad ace. SB folded after re-raising, so it's obvious that he's hurting their outs and not your ace? That doesn't make any sense, either.I think you came up with a scenario in your head to justify gambling and ended up being right. And then you risked all of your money with virtually no hand at all. I can't express how badly I think you played this hand. I'm willing to try, though. You played this hand horrendoustupidly. Yes, I had to make up a new word for your play.I think you need to change your reads to, "table full of morons".Congrats on your pot, though.

[Acid_Knight 2]

You played this hand horrendoustupidly. Yes, I had to make up a new word for your play.

Call Webster's. We've got a new entry...

[mtdesmoines 3]

ok, am I a ****** for loling when I read about this "deep pocketed" game, that had a max buy in of 250?And then not reading the rest of the post?- Jordan

Yeah, kinda.I'm not even sure the raising and reraising followed robert's rules of poker, but this is a home game, so... Nice hand OP

[Sefaje 0]

Yeah, you got lucky. The key to this pot is the hand of the guy who pushed for $500. He -could- be doing it with 97c, but he also could be doing it with 55. And also A8. Your equity against a random hand (minus the complete garbage) is pretty close to 50/50 --- and I feel that's generous. The only hand that you have crushed is 54. What makes it a bad play is...A4 vs. 54 = 67%, great.A4 vs. 78 = 54%, okay.A4 vs. 44+ = 33-35%, awful.A4 vs. 33 = 48%, bad considering your edge in this gameA4 vs. A5 = 25%win/35% lossA4 vs. A8 = 27%win/54% lossWhat I'm saying is, unless he has exactly 4x (where x isn't 4 or A) then you're at BEST 57-59% to win. But there are lots of hands that have you in more trouble than a hopeful 58% is worth, such as 44-AA, A5-AK, etc.I'm glad the play worked out for you at 57%, but you really need your hand to be stronger in order to make this call. Something where you're in trouble to less pocket-pairs and Ax's. I know this is a cash game and you should squeeze every bit of +EV you can out of it, but calling off stacks when you're behind over half your opponents range at an average of 2:3 and ahead against probably 40% of his range, where you're generally 4:3, is bad.Your hand is too easily turned into a one card hand, either by a pair or a better ace. Without an absolutely stupendous read, I fold and never think about it again.

[Money022 0]

Not picking on the OP here, but I get a kick out of it when players say, "I went into the tank" or "I look down". I also love the phrase, "I woke up with...". As far as the hand. Fold, fold, and definitely fold. Given your reads, you're not that far ahead of KQ, and definitely not much of a favorite against two opponents, even though one was short stacked and could only take a fraction of your stack. Nice reads though.

[Sefaje 0]

Also, the OP's membername plus the hand in this thread... Lol.

[ButTheyWereSuited.com 0]

Also, the OP's membername plus the hand in this thread... Lol.

don't worry. the irony wasn't wasted on me either

[Naismith 0]

This was a good thread.

[Acid_Knight 2]

This was a good thread.

Yeah, bump for the afternoon crowd :)Not good in the traditional way, but definitely good entertainment.PS - you need more to do if you're searching past threads in these forums. Go pet your pug (not a euphemism) or something.

[Naismith 0]

I have two rather large checks from poker sites I need to take to the bank and cash for Vegas, but tonight there's a big 10/20 game and I know if I get all that cash, I'll end up sitting in a game I shouldn't be sitting in.So instead, I'm wasting time looking at old threads. :)EDIT: I should make a "Best of..." compilation of strat posts like the OP here.

[Acid_Knight 2]

I have two rather large checks from poker sites I need to take to the bank and cash for Vegas, but tonight there's a big 10/20 game and I know if I get all that cash, I'll end up sitting in a game I shouldn't be sitting in.So instead, I'm wasting time looking at old threads.

When you come out here, make sure you have like 1K extra on stars or FT so that I can give you cash and you can transfer me some online funds. I'm too lazy to go through the avenues to get new money online and none of my playing friends out here play online anymore.

[rdtedm 0]

You going to play cash/tourney online?

[Acid_Knight 2]

EDIT: I should make a "Best of..." compilation of strat posts like the OP here.

Include this one when you do that:http://www.fullcontactpoker.com/poker-foru...showtopic=95647Thread title: Hands that were played horrendoustupidlySubtitle: Vehemently defended by original posters

[Acid_Knight 2]

You going to play cash/tourney online?

No idea yet, gotta get money on a site first. I should just get off my *** and Western Union it onto one of them.

[Naismith 0]

I love love love love the ones where people ask for advice and then argue at every turn. I took everything offline, but I have someone on Stars that owes me 800 or so if you want that. Or you could just deposit money yourself.

[Acid_Knight 2]

I love love love love the ones where people ask for advice and then argue at every turn.

It's only fun when it's like the whole forum is like "WTF WERE YOU DOING?!?!!?!?" and the response of the OP is always "no, I'm right because blah blah blah"

[rdtedm 0]

Include this one when you do that:http://www.fullcontactpoker.com/poker-foru...showtopic=95647Thread title: Hands that were played horrendoustupidlySubtitle: Vehemently defended by original posters

That was a classic. What's best is that he admitted he was tipsy/drunk when he did it, and then adamantly defended it.He must have shaken an eight ball when he arbitrarily decided his opponent was weak... ONLINE. .. "I could sense his hand shaking"