TB17 0 Posted January 24, 2009 Share Posted January 24, 2009 Also, I would say EV graphs probably only depict about 25% of how you are running and I think that is on the high side.that's why I stopped using them. I really feel Im running bad when my aces or kings are getting walks and not getting action, and sets are being c/fed way more often. That's just some stuff EV graphs don't calc.Nice month boats Link to post Share on other sites
Napa_Don 688 Posted January 24, 2009 Share Posted January 24, 2009 Also, I would say EV graphs probably only depict about 25% of how you are running and I think that is on the high side.Yeah I agree with you here. For all the reasons that are pretty obvious like gameflow, getting it in on the river when they hit a miracle card that made no sense and you had the nuts to the river, etc. I just think that people use the EV to their "advantage" when they're losing and dismiss it completely when winning. If that makes sense. Link to post Share on other sites
albertoflamingo 0 Posted January 24, 2009 Share Posted January 24, 2009 Just curious, but when people post HEM garphs and they don't have the EV line shown, is it safe to assume that they are running well above EV and don't want people to think that they aren't good or something like that? Does anybody else think this or am I just a debbie downer?A lot of the times the EV line isn't totally indicative of how well you're running. For example, you're ev line may say you're running way above expectation but you're running extremely range cold (running into coolers and the top of people's ranges and stuff). Unlike poker ev, which measured your ev by how much money you put into the pot on each street and whether you were ahead at the time, HEM only measures equity when you were all in. So if you put in 100 on the flop with like 80% equity and then put in 1 more doller on the turn with 10% equity, the equity that you have in the pot is only calculated on the turn.Link from HEM that explains it better: http://www.holdemmanager.net/forum/showthr...1118&page=2from the link:We also have plans in the future, (although it wont be soon and i dont have an ETA with the current workload) to introduce a new stat that will consider our equity across preflop/flop/turn and what % of our stack was in compared to the equity at the time which will produce a fairer stat in the case where we get 80%+ of our stack in on the flop as a big favourite and then All in EV is only calculated on the turn when the final 20% is gone in so if he hits his miracle card then the calculation would be very different when in fact you got the majority of your money in as a huge favourite but HM calculates it when you were a big dog on the turn. Link to post Share on other sites
RDog 0 Posted January 24, 2009 Share Posted January 24, 2009 Well, obv I'm not saying it's true for everybody. I'm just speaking in generalities because it seems you see more graphs with EV lines when people are way below expectation venting about how bad they run and when people have sick runs they just post the winnings graph. I know I'm guilty of it too, mainly because when I'm running hot I'm scared about jinxing myself by posting a sweet graph. I'm pretty much just worried about jinxing myself by posting any graph really. Mainly because I suck though.Well I'm sure this is true and it's fine. It's part of the venting process when things aren't going good. This thread is about making everyone in it a better player and I think having some sort of outlet to vent your frustration (even if it is just posting a really bad graph) helps in that process. Certainly much better than tilting at the tables. Link to post Share on other sites
TeeSludge 0 Posted January 24, 2009 Share Posted January 24, 2009 Here is the problem with 66. Villain has a boat pretty much always here. There are 3 likely boats. 66, QT, KT. If we have 66, we beat none of them. If we have QT, we beat one, which makes it a call. I think Tre has like AT here.After thinking it over I thought that I should basically only be calling with Q10 or better so we are on the same page there. TB is right I actually had AJcc.. as soon as I raised on the turn I didn't like it and thought I should probably just flat there. If I had flatted the turn and the river is the same.. what am I doing if he bets something like 40 into 47? Link to post Share on other sites
JubilantLankyLad 1,957 Posted January 24, 2009 Share Posted January 24, 2009 Just curious, but when people post HEM garphs and they don't have the EV line shown, is it safe to assume that they are running well above EV and don't want people to think that they aren't good or something like that? Does anybody else think this or am I just a debbie downer?HEM ev graph is bunk anyways, so i don't look at it much. Link to post Share on other sites
Citizen Erased 0 Posted January 24, 2009 Share Posted January 24, 2009 Just curious, but when people post HEM garphs and they don't have the EV line shown, is it safe to assume that they are running well above EV and don't want people to think that they aren't good or something like that? Does anybody else think this or am I just a debbie downer? Also, I would say EV graphs probably only depict about 25% of how you are running and I think that is on the high side.Precisely. I totally disregard EV as there's no point dwelling on it, is there? If it tells me I'm running good, bad, or backwards, I don't care. It shouldn't affect the way I play, so there's no point factoring it in. Link to post Share on other sites
Napa_Don 688 Posted January 24, 2009 Share Posted January 24, 2009 Yeah I agree with you here. For all the reasons that are pretty obvious like gameflow, getting it in on the river when they hit a miracle card that made no sense and you had the nuts to the river, etc. I just think that people use the EV to their "advantage" when they're losing and dismiss it completely when winning. If that makes sense. The bolded part is what I was trying to say in my first post, which is humorous to me, in a way. It's ok, I know I'm a tool. Link to post Share on other sites
RDog 0 Posted January 24, 2009 Share Posted January 24, 2009 After thinking it over I thought that I should basically only be calling with Q10 or better so we are on the same page there. TB is right I actually had AJcc.. as soon as I raised on the turn I didn't like it and thought I should probably just flat there. If I had flatted the turn and the river is the same.. what am I doing if he bets something like 40 into 47?You have to raise the river cause not seeing him call the extra bet on the turn, his range is now much wider. I would have to see the math but you probably can raise/fold. Link to post Share on other sites
JubilantLankyLad 1,957 Posted January 24, 2009 Share Posted January 24, 2009 The bolded part is what I was trying to say in my first post, which is humorous to me, in a way. It's ok, I know I'm a tool.yeah that's probably true. the bolded part, not the part about you being a tool. Link to post Share on other sites
Zach6668 513 Posted January 24, 2009 Share Posted January 24, 2009 The bolded part is what I was trying to say in my first post, which is humorous to me, in a way. It's ok, I know I'm a tool.I don't think I've ever been running as much over EV, as I have been running under EV.For the most part, even when you're running good, it's only going to be slightly over EV, usually.When you're running bad though, you're losing those 80/20s, etc and jacking up the EV line a lot. For the most part, unless we're playing quite badly, we aren't getting into a lot of spots where we have 20% equity for a huge pot, unless it's a cooler, and since those are somewhat rare, we're not going to suckout quite as often as some of our opponents are.In general, I'd say, we're getting it in better than our opponents, so it'd be tough to catch up, so to speak, with how far behind EV we get when we run bad.Just my opinion. Link to post Share on other sites
RDog 0 Posted January 24, 2009 Share Posted January 24, 2009 The bolded part is what I was trying to say in my first post, which is humorous to me, in a way. It's ok, I know I'm a tool.I knew what you were trying to say in your first post. You didn't really hide it . I don't know for me, just seems kind of toolish to come in here every time you are running really good and be like "OMG, look how good I am running!!!!" and kind of rubbing everyone's face in it. Posting a graph showing you running well occasionally is fine but the fact that people don't consistently post those probably has less to do with them dismissing the run good EV line and more to do with them not being a jackass.Edit: Also, I would bet a lot of money that people look at EV lines waaaaaaaaaaay more when they are losing than when they are winning (so they KNOW their EV more when they are losing). This game is so much about your mental approach to the game so just chalking up a good day without seeing that you ran good is perfectly fine. In short, people need to do what people need to do to make this game not crush you mentally. If that means looking at EV and saying "look how bad I run" and posting a graph here or not even looking at EV when you had a great day and just posting a graph showing how much they won, then I'm all for it. Whatever it takes for people to be in the right frame of mind. But I think judging or thinking about someones intentions is silly because everyone needs to do what is best for them. Link to post Share on other sites
TB17 0 Posted January 24, 2009 Share Posted January 24, 2009 You have to raise cause not seeing him call the extra bet on the turn, his range is now much wider. I would have to see the math but you probably can raise/fold.I actually don't like calling there with a person behind. Or raising for that matter. Is that weak? Link to post Share on other sites
Napa_Don 688 Posted January 24, 2009 Share Posted January 24, 2009 yeah that's probably true. the bolded part, not the part about you being a tool.I'M A TOOL OK! YOU WANT TO FIGHT ABOUT IT?!?! YOU KNOW WHAT I DO TO PEOPLE WHO DID NOTHING MORE THAN BE IN THE WRONG PLACE AT THE WRONG TIME!!11!!1 DO YOU WANT THAT?!?!/11/11?! Link to post Share on other sites
RDog 0 Posted January 24, 2009 Share Posted January 24, 2009 I actually don't like calling there with a person behind. Or raising for that matter. Is that weak?I assume you are talking about the turn (I was talking about the river since that was Tre's question). I think folding is fine, especially with the donk behind that could ship and put you in a bad spot. Link to post Share on other sites
TeeSludge 0 Posted January 24, 2009 Share Posted January 24, 2009 I actually don't like calling there with a person behind. Or raising for that matter. Is that weak?I think he's talking about the river in my hypothetical situation, not the turn in the actual hand. Link to post Share on other sites
Sheiky 0 Posted January 24, 2009 Share Posted January 24, 2009 Just curious, but when people post HEM garphs and they don't have the EV line shown, is it safe to assume that they are running well above EV and don't want people to think that they aren't good or something like that? Does anybody else think this or am I just a debbie downer?I'm fairly certain it's the same for most people, but I definitely do that. Link to post Share on other sites
RDog 0 Posted January 24, 2009 Share Posted January 24, 2009 I think he's talking about the river in my hypothetical situation, not the turn in the actual hand.Yeah, I was talking about the river. Link to post Share on other sites
Jordan 1 Posted January 24, 2009 Share Posted January 24, 2009 since everyone posting graphs, this is my month. lol @ volume...but i think i can potentially get to like 15-20k hands still, perhaps. up another $600 in PLOive been playing a lot of 6m, which i kinda need to stop. not cause i'm 'bad' at it, i just get so super bored playing it idk...im at least gonna start game selecting it more. if you're note careful you're at a table w 5 other regs.anyways Link to post Share on other sites
JubilantLankyLad 1,957 Posted January 24, 2009 Share Posted January 24, 2009 I'M A TOOL OK! YOU WANT TO FIGHT ABOUT IT?!?! YOU KNOW WHAT I DO TO PEOPLE WHO DID NOTHING MORE THAN BE IN THE WRONG PLACE AT THE WRONG TIME!!11!!1 DO YOU WANT THAT?!?!/11/11?!nononononono, i don't even have a cup. Link to post Share on other sites
TeeSludge 0 Posted January 24, 2009 Share Posted January 24, 2009 I assume you are talking about the turn (I was talking about the river since that was Tre's question). I think folding is fine, especially with the donk behind that could ship and put you in a bad spot.Okay so folding turn here is fine.. LOL @ that not even being an option I considered. FWIW if the donk shoves its only $5 more than his bet so at least I wouldn't be putting in $13 and then having to fold. Link to post Share on other sites
Giggidy 0 Posted January 24, 2009 Share Posted January 24, 2009 January so far:1st-4th:5th onwards:Swongy so far - adding the 2nd table is getting there slowly, this is by far my highest volume month HU, but i still feel I crush way better 1 tabling - it'll come with time I guess. The money has mosly come from snaring 2 spewtards. I've definately spewed myself, gotta get a better grip on thatI'm determined to destroy the rest of Jan and Feb aswell Link to post Share on other sites
Syous 0 Posted January 24, 2009 Share Posted January 24, 2009 fkin ridiculous sessionFull Tilt Poker $2/$4 No Limit Hold'em - 2 players - View hand 17362The Official DeucesCracked.com Hand History Converterfkin crazy match~3 tabled him. This villain ran so hot, he got soulowned here Hero (BB): $400.00BTN/SB: $1290.25Pre Flop: ($6.00) Hero is BB with Q K BTN/SB raises to $12, Hero raises to $42, BTN/SB calls $30Flop: ($84.00) 8 7 2 (2 players)Hero bets $50, BTN/SB raises to $128, Hero raises to $358 all in, BTN/SB calls $230Turn: ($800.00) 3 (2 players - 1 is all in)River: ($800.00) Q (2 players - 1 is all in)Final Pot: $800.00Hero shows Q K (a pair of Queens)BTN/SB shows 5 6 (Queen Eight high)Hero wins $799.50(Rake: $0.50) Link to post Share on other sites
Syous 0 Posted January 24, 2009 Share Posted January 24, 2009 Full Tilt Poker $2/$4 No Limit Hold'em - 2 players - View hand 17366The Official DeucesCracked.com Hand History ConverterHero (BB): $497.50BTN/SB: $1354.00Pre Flop: ($6.00) Hero is BB with T T BTN/SB raises to $12, Hero raises to $48, BTN/SB calls $36Flop: ($96.00) 7 6 8 (2 players)Hero checks, BTN/SB bets $54, Hero raises to $258, BTN/SB requests TIME, BTN/SB raises to $1306 all in, Hero calls $191.50 all inTurn: ($995.00) 3 (2 players - 2 are all in)River: ($995.00) 8 (2 players - 2 are all in)Final Pot: $995.00Hero shows T T (two pair, Tens and Eights)BTN/SB shows J 8 (three of a kind, Eights)BTN/SB wins $994.50(Rake: $0.50)http://www.pokerhand.org/?3760780http://www.pokerhand.org/?3760775http://www.pokerhand.org/?3760776 Link to post Share on other sites
mhoward29 0 Posted January 24, 2009 Share Posted January 24, 2009 What are "Sklansky bucks"? I see them on some graphs, never heard of them. Link to post Share on other sites
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