New Challenge (old Challenge)

[chgocubs99 0]

Both should be measuring equity when money goes in the pot. 100% that is what Poker EV does. I assume any equity calcs HEM makes are done the same way. Otherwise it isn't a true equity calc.

Maybe not, but what's the point of a true equity calculation? Remember the hand where the guy called a 4 bet OOP w/ 10 8 and you had AK? I don't remember how the hand played out, but to make my point lets say flop came A102 and check through. Turn is an 8 and he bets, you call. River is a 3 and he shoves, you call. It's going to show that you got all your money in way behind, but that doesn't mean you played the hand badly.I agree that HEM's isn't a true equity calculation, it's just a much better measure of how you are running as it relates to purely luck factors. That being said, since PEV does that for you already, it isn't anything special, but I don't think the fact that true equity isn't measured should be a detriment to the product.

[RDog 0]

Maybe not, but what's the point of a true equity calculation? Remember the hand where the guy called a 4 bet OOP w/ 10 8 and you had AK? I don't remember how the hand played out, but to make my point lets say flop came A102 and check through. Turn is an 8 and he bets, you call. River is a 3 and he shoves, you call. It's going to show that you got all your money in way behind, but that doesn't mean you played the hand badly.I agree that HEM's isn't a true equity calculation, it's just a much better measure of how you are running as it relates to purely luck factors. That being said, since PEV does that for you already, it isn't anything special, but I don't think the fact that true equity isn't measured should be a detriment to the product.

I just wasn't sure that was what it was measuring honestly. I dunno, maybe it is. But regardless of how you look at all in equity, the numbers should come out the same. It seems in the "ballpark" based on what you, John and Sheiky are saying but it seems weird that it is off some. More than anything, I thought that people expected all in EV on HEM to be something it wasn't but maybe it actually is. In the end of course, it isn't the true measure of how you are running but it is more of a measure than I thought it was when I woke up this morning.

[RDog 0]

I have been trying to think of different lines to take against regs OOP. How often do you all put out a blocker type bet on the river to induce a bluff shove/thin value shove?also what about c/c flop donk betting turn as bluffs and with monsters? or are these lines esp. the latter not effective?

I do both. The first one I do it against spaz regs that will never give up a pot. They want to win every pot so I give them a chance. The second one I do a lot. As bluffs and with big hands. With big hands I do it quite a bit where I think Villain might check back the turn for pot control and I have a set for example on a dry board. As a bluff a good example would be you call the flop with a mid pair and the 3rd card to a flush comes on the turn, I will turn my hand into a bluff here a decent amount of the time. At the same time I am also betting my small flushes because I don't want Villain to pull a free river card if he has a draw to a higher flush.Definitely need to get creative OOP.

[Painter567 0]

No love for Miley?

[Acid_Knight 2]

Today:LOL at my month:[ ] Not playing enough hands

[Citizen Erased 0]

Wasn't going to post this, but it's quiet here at the moment so figured I may as well.Sorry, but it's quite long:citizenerasedfcp (2:02:43 PM): *** POCKET CARDS ***Dealt to CITZENERASED [9c 9h] 24NO1 - Calls $0.25TORATORATORA - FoldsCITZENERASED - Calls $0.15THEFUPE - Raises $0.75 to $124NO1 - FoldsCITZENERASED - Calls $0.75*** FLOP *** [5h 2c 3c]CITZENERASED - Bets $1.50THEFUPE - Calls $1.50*** TURN *** [5h 2c 3c] [6h]CITZENERASED - Bets $3.25THEFUPE - Calls $3.25*** RIVER *** [5h 2c 3c 6h] [3d]CITZENERASED - Bets $4THEFUPE - Calls $4*** SHOW DOWN ***CITZENERASED - Shows [9c 9h] (Two Pair, nines and threes) THEFUPE - Mucks [10s Ac]CITZENERASED Collects $18.79 from main potcitizenerasedfcp (2:02:49 PM): =/time2pokeher (2:03:22 PM): =/ ?time2pokeher (2:03:29 PM): looks like a good thing to mecitizenerasedfcp (2:03:33 PM): preciselycitizenerasedfcp (2:03:36 PM): but whats he thinking?citizenerasedfcp (2:03:46 PM): usually i can understand a villain's dumbass linecitizenerasedfcp (2:04:00 PM): ah welltime2pokeher (2:05:17 PM): That's the simple "Zomg he has AK I'm going to make a soul read call to show I'm not afraid next time he tried to bluff"citizenerasedfcp (2:05:29 PM): but if i had AK, id still wincitizenerasedfcp (2:05:51 PM): unless he thought i had A4 or something =/citizenerasedfcp (2:05:56 PM): ah well. hes an idiottime2pokeher (2:06:24 PM): fwiw, I probs raise that pre and c/c the flop rather than donk, but I have no readscitizenerasedfcp (2:06:50 PM): im trying to stop c/c as its costing me loadscitizenerasedfcp (2:07:20 PM): and raising PF means something like 75% of the time ill be running it postflop as a bluff OOP, which I dont likecitizenerasedfcp (2:08:05 PM): time2pokeher (2:08:14 PM): but limping behind?time2pokeher (2:08:18 PM): You lose so much equitycitizenerasedfcp (2:08:22 PM): im SBtime2pokeher (2:08:24 PM): You have to c/f like every flopcitizenerasedfcp (2:08:33 PM): fine by metime2pokeher (2:09:03 PM): I think that has to significantly cut into your bb/100citizenerasedfcp (2:09:03 PM): if the BB has like full stack, yeah, maybe ill raise it up to play for stackscitizenerasedfcp (2:09:18 PM): heh. overall for me, im getting raped OOPcitizenerasedfcp (2:10:24 PM): each to his own, i guesstime2pokeher (2:11:12 PM): I'm sure it isn't a good habit though in higher stakes we're you're gonna get taken to aggro-towncitizenerasedfcp (2:13:18 PM): hmmmcitizenerasedfcp (2:13:29 PM): well what do you do on a 8KQ flop?time2pokeher (2:13:44 PM): if I raise and the BB calls?citizenerasedfcp (2:13:54 PM): yh?time2pokeher (2:13:58 PM): cbetcitizenerasedfcp (2:14:10 PM): okaycitizenerasedfcp (2:14:21 PM): so we make it .8 to go, he flats: $1.6 potcitizenerasedfcp (2:14:24 PM): you cbet 1.2ish?time2pokeher (2:14:37 PM): yeah, looks goodcitizenerasedfcp (2:14:42 PM): okay, he flatscitizenerasedfcp (2:14:49 PM): (which he will with A LOT of hands)citizenerasedfcp (2:14:55 PM): turn = $5citizenerasedfcp (2:15:03 PM): 2 making it 8KQ2rcitizenerasedfcp (2:15:06 PM): line?time2pokeher (2:15:32 PM): I have turn as $4citizenerasedfcp (2:15:39 PM): ftr, his range is now any Q, any K, TJ, AJ, AKcitizenerasedfcp (2:15:46 PM): sorry, yeah; 4time2pokeher (2:15:49 PM): also any PPtime2pokeher (2:16:07 PM): depending on villain AJ, 9-10, etc.citizenerasedfcp (2:16:16 PM): yeah, so basically a v. wide rangetime2pokeher (2:16:23 PM): I don't think he flats AK fwiw pretime2pokeher (2:16:49 PM): anyway, this line depends on hands/reads etc. but I probably two barrel about half the timetime2pokeher (2:17:11 PM): c/f sometimes and occasionally c/c or c/r if we think villains line makes no sensetime2pokeher (2:17:23 PM): I just think the way you're playing is completely optimal for villaincitizenerasedfcp (2:17:36 PM): ithink its total spewcitizenerasedfcp (2:17:45 PM): (to raise PF)time2pokeher (2:18:00 PM): okay thencitizenerasedfcp (2:18:09 PM): ftr, nothing personal time2pokeher (2:18:10 PM): if you don't raise 99 there, what do you raise?time2pokeher (2:18:19 PM): no I know, I think it's good discussion citizenerasedfcp (2:18:27 PM): AA/KK/QQ, maybe JJ. AK probstime2pokeher (2:18:32 PM): now do you see your problem?citizenerasedfcp (2:18:36 PM): nopecitizenerasedfcp (2:18:39 PM): i suck oopcitizenerasedfcp (2:18:43 PM): im catering for that facttime2pokeher (2:18:51 PM): You're allowing everyone else to play optimallytime2pokeher (2:19:19 PM): if I'm to your left and see you limp 99 in the SB and then raise AA, I'm going to be drawing conclusions that make you very easy to play againsttime2pokeher (2:19:40 PM): You're range is narrowed to a ridiculous extent when you raise, and you're going to get paid off a lot lesstime2pokeher (2:19:44 PM): *Yourcitizenerasedfcp (2:19:48 PM): ITS 25citizenerasedfcp (2:19:53 PM): PEOPLE ARE ****ING TARDScitizenerasedfcp (2:20:02 PM): lol. they dont pay attentiontime2pokeher (2:20:11 PM): You'd be surprised at what some people noticetime2pokeher (2:20:17 PM): sometimes it's just the weirdest stuffcitizenerasedfcp (2:20:31 PM): yeah but if i notice them notiving, ill edittime2pokeher (2:21:24 PM): How are you going to notice them noticing?time2pokeher (2:21:32 PM): You raise AA and they fold?time2pokeher (2:21:36 PM): they might have 7-2ocitizenerasedfcp (2:21:46 PM): okay, well heres a fact i establishedcitizenerasedfcp (2:21:53 PM): 25:citizenerasedfcp (2:22:13 PM): 40% (generous) know basic poker skillscitizenerasedfcp (2:22:16 PM): 20% are idiotstime2pokeher (2:22:45 PM): so basically you're playing exploitatively instead of optimally?citizenerasedfcp (2:22:54 PM): 1 seccitizenerasedfcp (2:23:04 PM): 10% are goodcitizenerasedfcp (2:23:14 PM): and play suchcitizenerasedfcp (2:23:25 PM): the other 30% know what to do, but just dont do itcitizenerasedfcp (2:23:43 PM): eg. they're scared; doubt themselves; cant afford it, w/etime2pokeher (2:24:19 PM): that doesn't change that it may be the right play, and I still think you're leaving a ton of money on the table, for 25, but not for anything above itcitizenerasedfcp (2:24:46 PM): in the eg. i gave abovecitizenerasedfcp (2:25:01 PM): if we db 3.5 into 5, that's $6 investedcitizenerasedfcp (2:25:10 PM): if he raises, we have to foldcitizenerasedfcp (2:25:21 PM): if we're ahead, hes got at least 30% outs for ost of his rangecitizenerasedfcp (2:25:32 PM): if we check the river, everything he has - incl. bluffs - betcitizenerasedfcp (2:25:42 PM): if we bet the river, were doing it on a pure blufftime2pokeher (2:25:47 PM): you'd be surprised of people giving up on rivercitizenerasedfcp (2:25:54 PM): which wed be forced to dotime2pokeher (2:25:55 PM): he folds all his gutshots on the turntime2pokeher (2:25:58 PM): folds PP'stime2pokeher (2:26:13 PM): once he calls two streets we can be very certain that he has a Ktime2pokeher (2:26:27 PM): (or JT or something)time2pokeher (2:26:39 PM): and then we river the nine and get it all in against JT and lose a stacktime2pokeher (2:26:41 PM): easy gamecitizenerasedfcp (2:26:46 PM): preciselycitizenerasedfcp (2:26:49 PM): there's no good rivertime2pokeher (2:26:57 PM): most rivers are good riverscitizenerasedfcp (2:26:59 PM): but here we are in our own-dug holetime2pokeher (2:27:04 PM): we've been betting every card confidentlytime2pokeher (2:27:15 PM): if he has a weak K there's nothing he wants to see that isn't 2pr or a third Ktime2pokeher (2:27:28 PM): sometimes you have to bluffcitizenerasedfcp (2:27:33 PM): yeah, which is why he may not raisetime2pokeher (2:27:35 PM): that's the way the game goescitizenerasedfcp (2:27:39 PM): but he sure will calltime2pokeher (2:28:23 PM): if he calls with that shit to a 3rd barrel on a board like that, then you make a note of it and just value bet the hell out of himtime2pokeher (2:28:42 PM): I don't mind losing 40% of my stack there, you lose all credit for the next three months with anyone who sees itcitizenerasedfcp (2:29:46 PM): yeah but at 25, chances are you wont see 1/2 the players againcitizenerasedfcp (2:29:56 PM): which is why long-term image is MUCH less valuabletime2pokeher (2:30:23 PM): *shrug* I'm just giving you what I think is the optimal line, not what may lose you the least money in the very short termtime2pokeher (2:30:35 PM): against crap playerstime2pokeher (2:30:41 PM): okay, another scenariotime2pokeher (2:30:44 PM): you limp 99time2pokeher (2:30:49 PM): flop comes 9xxtime2pokeher (2:30:51 PM): now what?citizenerasedfcp (2:30:57 PM): wet or dry?time2pokeher (2:31:05 PM): bothtime2pokeher (2:31:10 PM): (like, give me both lines)citizenerasedfcp (2:31:28 PM): well both we probs wanna bet, yeahcitizenerasedfcp (2:31:34 PM): cos that pot needs bloatingcitizenerasedfcp (2:31:45 PM): but if its dry, im much more tempted ot overbet or what notcitizenerasedfcp (2:31:49 PM): ie 2x pot or w/etime2pokeher (2:31:54 PM): awahcitizenerasedfcp (2:32:02 PM): what? its not PL time2pokeher (2:32:18 PM): why overbet the dry board?citizenerasedfcp (2:32:24 PM): no,, overbet the wetcitizenerasedfcp (2:32:33 PM): sorry - mistypetime2pokeher (2:32:38 PM): oh, lol, makes more sensecitizenerasedfcp (2:32:41 PM): haha, yeahtime2pokeher (2:32:52 PM): anyway, dry board you have to bet out and you're going to be getting foldscitizenerasedfcp (2:32:54 PM): if its dry, there's an element of hope that they've caughtcitizenerasedfcp (2:33:05 PM): but that counts when you raise AA in LP and the flop's AT2rtime2pokeher (2:33:21 PM): raising might be, and I mean Might Be, unproftible if every single flop was KQ2time2pokeher (2:33:26 PM): luckily it isn'ttime2pokeher (2:33:36 PM): you're going to flop the nuts and you're going to get idiots playing back at youcitizenerasedfcp (2:33:37 PM): yeah but hte majority of the time there's at least 1 overtime2pokeher (2:33:45 PM): one over I definately double barrelcitizenerasedfcp (2:33:52 PM): whereas the vast minority there's no 9citizenerasedfcp (2:34:14 PM): and then even if we get a 9, we need to hope they've hit . many ppl insta-fold their BB at 1st opportunitytime2pokeher (2:34:37 PM): yes, but if we raise and hit a 9 and they all fold we already got a few extra big blinds in therecitizenerasedfcp (2:34:47 PM): yeah but in the long termcitizenerasedfcp (2:34:52 PM): we're gonna miss WAY more than we hitcitizenerasedfcp (2:34:58 PM): and if we hit we need them to hittime2pokeher (2:35:14 PM): if you limp all these hands you're going to be losing a lot less with bad hands, going to win a lot less with good hands and going to lose a lot MORE with marginal hands=============CliffNotes: Should we raise with 99 in the SB when it folds around/ BvB?

[RDog 0]

Ummmmm.....yes, I read pretty much that entire thing. You need to listen more to time2pokeher when it comes to poker. Not sure if he posts here or who he is but he is definitely more on the right track. Also, further, in cash games, never limp your SB unopened unless there are extraordinary circumstances like the BB shoves every limped pot and you have a big hand or something along those lines. Raise or fold. And 100% you need to raise a really good hand like 99. Also, no offense, but just a common theme throughout your response is blaming idiots as to why you don't take profitable lines and that is a really, really bad way of thinking. Let idiots do what idiots do and you play your hands in the best way possible, but don't use them as an excuse as to why you aren't doing something that is profitable.Edit: Also, I just looked and there is a limper here but it looks like your discussion is about an unopened pot. Even with a limper 99 is strong enough to raise pre from the SB. Smaller pairs you can probably just limp behind.

[Citizen Erased 0]

Ummmmm.....yes, I read pretty much that entire thing. You need to listen more to time2pokeher when it comes to poker. Not sure if he posts here or who he is but he is definitely more on the right track. Also, further, in cash games, never limp your SB unopened unless there are extraordinary circumstances like the BB shoves every limped pot and you have a big hand or something along those lines. Raise or fold. And 100% you need to raise a really good hand like 99. Also, no offense, but just a common theme throughout your response is blaming idiots as to why you don't take profitable lines and that is a really, really bad way of thinking. Let idiots do what idiots do and you play your hands in the best way possible, but don't use them as an excuse as to why you aren't doing something that is profitable.Edit: Also, I just looked and there is a limper here but it looks like your discussion is about an unopened pot. Even with a limper 99 is strong enough to raise pre from the SB. Smaller pairs you can probably just limp behind.

well i definitely understand that 99 is a premium hand, and i understand that it should be raised PF there in general, but i'm basically saying if i am not confident in playing OOP w/ mediocre hands*, should i put myself in those scenariosftr, i expected (and still expect) to get critiqued (even harshly) in replies. that's exactly why i posted it.and also, time2pokeher is babylondonks.*EDIT: Will be mediocre on the majority of flops.

[RDog 0]

well i definitely understand that 99 is a premium hand, and i understand that it should be raised PF there in general, but i'm basically saying if i am not confident in playing OOP w/ mediocre hands, should i put myself in those scenariosftr, i expected (and still expect) to get critiqued (even harshly) in replies. that's exactly why i posted it.and also, time2pokeher is babylondonks.

I think though that your issue is that you undervalue a hand like 99 on a Q64 board. Do we want to play a big pot? No. But you still can certainly win a small pot. And especially in BvB which is what your discussion became, 99 is going to play even better, even if OOP. No one said playing OOP is fun but you certainly can't stop it from getting value with your good hands. You make it sound like a bad thing that people will be calling you with hands like Q7 or whatever pre. When it certainly isn't.

[RDog 0]

Also, as he pointed out, you are thinking of way too many doomsday scenarios. There are quite a few flops where 99 is going to be very strong.

[babylondonks 5]

Ummmmm.....yes, I read pretty much that entire thing. You need to listen more to time2pokeher when it comes to poker. Not sure if he posts here or who he is but he is definitely more on the right track. Also, further, in cash games, never limp your SB unopened unless there are extraordinary circumstances like the BB shoves every limped pot and you have a big hand or something along those lines. Raise or fold. And 100% you need to raise a really good hand like 99. Also, no offense, but just a common theme throughout your response is blaming idiots as to why you don't take profitable lines and that is a really, really bad way of thinking. Let idiots do what idiots do and you play your hands in the best way possible, but don't use them as an excuse as to why you aren't doing something that is profitable.Edit: Also, I just looked and there is a limper here but it looks like your discussion is about an unopened pot. Even with a limper 99 is strong enough to raise pre from the SB. Smaller pairs you can probably just limp behind.

*waves*I think I can die a happy man now Anyway, played a 500 or so hand session earlier and I basically run/flopped like God with a WTSD% of 40 and a W$SD% of 65. Sustainable?

[TeeSludge 0]

Citizen: Also I would say that rather than try to avoid situations where you are playing mediocre hands OOP you should just focus on how to play optimally in those situations and get the confidence you need to succeed in those situations, rather than shying away from them. Don't be afraid to make mistakes but learn from them.

[whatgreatis 0]

I had a decent day today.

[JubilantLankyLad 1,957]

Citizen: Also I would say that rather than try to avoid situations where you are playing mediocre hands OOP you should just focus on how to play optimally in those situations and get the confidence you need to succeed in those situations, rather than shying away from them. Don't be afraid to make mistakes but learn from them.

that's some damn good advice right there.nice series of posts.

[rocketpoker828 0]

god, i can't even beat shortstacks @ HU...idk what to do anymore.

[bull62 0]

After careful amateur analysis, I'm gonna go out on a limb and say it is impossible for McCain to win without winning Pennsylvania.

[babylondonks 5]

After careful amateur analysis, I'm gonna go out on a limb and say it is impossible for McCain to win without winning Pennsylvania.

I agree aswell

[cwik 0]

Epic Hold:Full Tilt Poker, $1/2 Hold'em Cash Games, 2 Players Hand Converter by Pokerhand.orgBoard:cwik1 (Button): $327.502muchred (BB): $108.40 Dealt to cwik1 9 J Pre-flop:cwik1 raises to $6, 2muchred raises to $10, cwik1 calls $4Flop: ($23) 7 3 4 (2 Players)2muchred bets $20, cwik1 raises to $317.50 and is all-in, 2muchred calls $78.40 and is all-in, cwik1 returns $219.10Turn: ($219.80) Q (2 Players)River: ($219.80) K (2 Players)Results: $216.30 Potcwik1 Showed 9 J 2muchred Showed J 5 cwik1 wins $216.3

[NoSup4U 0]

Another day at Foxwoods, another 2K. Good trip so far. Hope it holds a couple more days....Mark

[king1305 0]

After careful amateur analysis, I'm gonna go out on a limb and say it is impossible for McCain to win without winning Pennsylvania.

With that said, I'll make sure I do my best so that my state does the right thing.....

[babylondonks 5]

Villain had three bet me twice ina very short span (in fact the 2nd time was the hand before this) so I decided to play this trickyThis hand isn't really anything of note to anyone except me, but as I saw what villain showed to me, I realised that two months ago (if not more recently) the villain would have been mehttp://www.holdemmanager.netNL Holdem $0.10(BB) Full Tilt Game#8804599425EastLansing ($7.05)cosanostra2 ($16.80)HONEY BADGER ($14.50)FCPbaby ($10)shepe ($7.45)killatight18 ($9.85)EastLansing posts (SB) $0.05cosanostra2 posts (BB) $0.10Dealt to FCPbaby Ah Ac fold, FCPbaby raises to $0.35shepe raises to $1.45fold, fold, fold, call, FLOP ($3.05) 4c 9c Qh check, shepe bets $2FCPbaby calls $2TURN ($7.05) 4c 9c Qh 7c check, shepe bets $4FCPbaby calls $4RIVER ($15.05) 4c 9c Qh 7c 9h FCPbaby shows Ah Ac (Flop 96.7%, Turn 100.0%)shepe shows Ad Js (Flop 3.3%, Turn 0.0%)FCPbaby wins $13.55

[yourboygsarida 0]

Another day at Foxwoods, another 2K. Good trip so far. Hope it holds a couple more days....Mark

gogogogo imo. run goot please.

[babylondonks 5]

Okay, a question hand this time Villain is from memory 10/7http://www.holdemmanager.netNL Holdem $0.10(BB) Full Tilt Game#8804663310CTAPuKuMOPE ($10.05)lunatic2333 ($10)Dessertik ($10.90)Jurand1 ($0.80)roenilein ($10)FCPbaby ($11.55)CTAPuKuMOPE posts (SB) $0.05lunatic2333 posts (BB) $0.10Dealt to FCPbaby As Ah Dessertik raises to $0.40FCPbaby raises to $1.35fold, fold, call, FLOP ($2.85) 5d 6s Td check, FCPbaby bets $1.95Dessertik calls $1.95TURN ($6.75) 5d 6s Td 8d check, FCPBaby ???Effective stack is $7.60Now the obvious answer is to bet closer to pot on the flop so we can shove turn, but I'm sure we've all found ourselves in a place like this before. Check/Shove? Overshove? Bet 1/2 pot?Also thoughts on the HEM text converter or is it better to convert it with pretty colours and pictures? It's starting to tilt me and I'm the one posting them.

[Fluffdog87 2]

With that said, I'll make sure I do my best so that my state does the right thing.....

Go Obama!

[Influcted 0]

What should I get with FTP's?