New Challenge (old Challenge)

[bull62 0]

Flatcalling this flop is really bad imo.

Why? I'm always interested in constructive criticism.

[Snamuh 0]

Why? I'm always interested in constructive criticism.

Because it's insanely drawy and you'll get called by a pretty wide range of hands. I'm guessing you would C/R the Ad here, but you didn't C/R here because you had the nuts and didn't want him to fold.

[bull62 0]

Because it's insanely drawy and you'll get called by a pretty wide range of hands. I'm guessing you would C/R the Ad here, but you didn't C/R here because you had the nuts and didn't want him to fold.

If he's willing to bet it for me when I have the nuts, why not let him. I can think of a lot of hands he could have that will fold to a cr on the flop. If he has one of those hands, he folds the turn but I got an extra $10 out of him. Not saying I'm right, just what I was thinking.

[SlapStick 0]

If he's willing to bet it for me when I have the nuts, why not let him. I can think of a lot of hands he could have that will fold to a cr on the flop. If he has one of those hands, he folds the turn but I got an extra $10 out of him. Not saying I'm right, just what I was thinking.

I think he means that your hand is transparent as you wouldn't bet/play this way with anything else but the nuts. I think.

[Snamuh 0]

If he's willing to bet it for me when I have the nuts, why not let him. I can think of a lot of hands he could have that will fold to a cr on the flop. If he has one of those hands, he folds the turn but I got an extra $10 out of him. Not saying I'm right, just what I was thinking.

But instead you are willing to risk letting a card like that exact turn that will make him slowdown with 95% of his range. Or a 4th diamond slows him down with an overpair whereas some will be willing to get it in with an overpair assuming you have some kind of draw.It's not about you having the nuts. It's about you having a hand on a board where you are likely to get paid off and a ton of bad cards come. Your logic is insanely flawed when you say "let him bet because I have the nuts." Instead you should be thinking about the best way to get paid off and possible cards that can come to either help or kill your action. That board only gets worse for you to get paid, and if he has something like the Ad, he's getting it in there anyways.

[Snamuh 0]

I think he means that your hand is transparent as you wouldn't bet/play this way with anything else but the nuts. I think.

More than that, read the above post.

[bull62 0]

But instead you are willing to risk letting a card like that exact turn that will make him slowdown with 95% of his range. Or a 4th diamond slows him down with an overpair whereas some will be willing to get it in with an overpair assuming you have some kind of draw.It's not about you having the nuts. It's about you having a hand on a board where you are likely to get paid off and a ton of bad cards come. Your logic is insanely flawed when you say "let him bet because I have the nuts." Instead you should be thinking about the best way to get paid off and possible cards that can come to either help or kill your action. That board only gets worse for you to get paid, and if he has something like the Ad, he's getting it in there anyways.

I don't feel like I'm getting paid on that board unless he already has a big hand or makes a big hand on the turn or river, or is a complete idiot. Granted the non-d 6 was probably one of worst cards that could come, but if I'm the villain, I'm a lot more worried about a flush than a str8 assuming the villain didn't already have a flush. I don't think I'm calling many raises from the BB with 5x. I'm even folding here if the button doesn't call so that only leaves 55. IMO, if the villain has an overpair or big diamond the turn doesn't really change anything for him. He should be thinking that if he was ahead on the flop, he's still ahead on the turn. Hell, I'm hoping for a diamond on the turn because I'm thinking that the only way I get paid is if the villain hits a flush as well. I don't think I get paid by overpairs here a ton, at least not for a full stack. So actually, I was thinking exactly about the best way to get paid off and the possible cards to come that would help.

[bull62 0]

I'm down to 10 and a half buy ins at $50, I don't want to move down either.

Move down.

[Snamuh 0]

I don't feel like I'm getting paid on that board unless he already has a big hand or makes a big hand on the turn or river, or is a complete idiot. Granted the non-d 6 was probably one of worst cards that could come, but if I'm the villain, I'm a lot more worried about a flush than a str8 assuming the villain didn't already have a flush. I don't think I'm calling many raises from the BB with 5x. I'm even folding here if the button doesn't call so that only leaves 55. IMO, if the villain has an overpair or big diamond the turn doesn't really change anything for him. He should be thinking that if he was ahead on the flop, he's still ahead on the turn. Hell, I'm hoping for a diamond on the turn because I'm thinking that the only way I get paid is if the villain hits a flush as well. I don't think I get paid by overpairs here a ton, at least not for a full stack. So actually, I was thinking exactly about the best way to get paid off and the possible cards to come that would help.

OK since you didn't buy my logic, I'll just revert to my previous statement that not raising there is bad imo. What can possibly hit that makes a villain suddenly want to stack off when he didn't before? Even a made flush gets away when the turn brings a 4th diamond, or if the board pairs, you might not get paid off in full. A set would rather stack off on the flop than the turn. An overpair is going to put more in on the flop than anywhere else (and you only get paid more later by an overpair if he hits his 2 outter which is a ridiculous reason to check). Basically you are just saying you check because you think he misses with overcards a lot but overcards are going to fold to your turn check/raise and they might check back turn for pot control/deception.

[fighter 4]

I don't feel like I'm getting paid on that board unless he already has a big hand or makes a big hand on the turn or river, or is a complete idiot. Granted the non-d 6 was probably one of worst cards that could come, but if I'm the villain, I'm a lot more worried about a flush than a str8 assuming the villain didn't already have a flush. I don't think I'm calling many raises from the BB with 5x. I'm even folding here if the button doesn't call so that only leaves 55. IMO, if the villain has an overpair or big diamond the turn doesn't really change anything for him. He should be thinking that if he was ahead on the flop, he's still ahead on the turn. Hell, I'm hoping for a diamond on the turn because I'm thinking that the only way I get paid is if the villain hits a flush as well. I don't think I get paid by overpairs here a ton, at least not for a full stack. So actually, I was thinking exactly about the best way to get paid off and the possible cards to come that would help.

Yeah it does. If the villian has AdAs. If you apply pressure on the flop he will go "I has a pair and draw, I have to get my stack in". If you apply pressure on the turn he goes, "he could have two pair or straight and There is only one card to come. I call but I fold to non river diamond."Lots of average players are afraid of turn aggression because the reflex reaction for most players is to check flop with flush. There is a theory about it over at 2+2 that one pair hands are rarely good facing turn aggression.More so when you let the turn fall lots of combo draws are no longer stack happy. An example is when you flop an OESFD on a two tone board and the opponent calls, the turn bricks and you are in the weird spot where if you get the money in your no longer flipping your just behind. I dont know if that is a good example but it is the best I can think of for the difference in turn and flop for combo draws.edit:I see snamuh just mentioned all the hands possible but I think my elaboration of this type of hand is where you are losing the most of value from checking flop

[bull62 0]

OK since you didn't buy my logic, I'll just revert to my previous statement that not raising there is bad imo. What can possibly hit that makes a villain suddenly want to stack off when he didn't before? Even a made flush gets away when the turn brings a 4th diamond, or if the board pairs, you might not get paid off in full. A set would rather stack off on the flop than the turn. An overpair is going to put more in on the flop than anywhere else (and you only get paid more later by an overpair if he hits his 2 outter which is a ridiculous reason to check). Basically you are just saying you check because you think he misses with overcards a lot but overcards are going to fold to your turn check/raise and they might check back turn for pot control/deception.

I never said I didn't buy your logic. I'm just explaining the hand as I played it. You make good points. I do believe there is more than one way to play most hands though. In this case, I flopped basically an unbeatable hand barring a miracle and felt like a flop cr would win me a small pot, whereas giving him the chance to catch up gave me the chance to win a big pot. If he has a set, give the board a chance to pair. If he has a diamond, give him the chance to hit his flush. I think these scenarios are more likely than an overpair paying me off or a made flush already being out there and getting scared by a 4th diamond. I'm certainly not thinking overcards are going to pay me off if they hit, and they're folding to a flop cr anyway. I'm thinking I've hit a rare hand, I'd like to get paid off, my best chance for this is by a flush or boat. Don't take it as saying I think you're wrong. In the long run on this particular hand it probably doesn't matter that much either way.

[babylondonks 5]

fwiw, I probably play the hand like Bull does, but I'd prefer to play the hand like Snamuh does. I often have a lot of trouble getting maximum value out of hands and in some ways I think it is because I leave it until it's too late to ramp up the aggression. I mean Bull, if we check that turn (as played) and villain checks behind, what now? We have the nuts and a 24BB pot on the river and we're OOP. We can either check again and hope that villain decides to take a stab, or bet around the pot, and I think either way we're losing value against a lot of hands. I think the fact that we ran into the 3rd nuts is the only reason we got so much money in this pot and a SD pot at all.

[bull62 0]

fwiw, I probably play the hand like Bull does, but I'd prefer to play the hand like Snamuh does. I often have a lot of trouble getting maximum value out of hands and in some ways I think it is because I leave it until it's too late to ramp up the aggression. I mean Bull, if we check that turn (as played) and villain checks behind, what now? We have the nuts and a 24BB pot on the river and we're OOP. We can either check again and hope that villain decides to take a stab, or bet around the pot, and I think either way we're losing value against a lot of hands. I think the fact that we ran into the 3rd nuts is the only reason we got so much money in this pot and a SD pot at all.

I agree with this. But if he has a hand that will check behind on turn, I doubt he has a hand that will call a cr on the flop. What's more likely? That a late position raiser flopped a hand that will pay us off, or that he could make a hand on later streets that will pay us off? He could just as easily have 55 as I could. We're focusing on opposite ends of the same equation. Ya'll are assuming the villain already has a strong hand. I'm assuming he doesn't. The answer probably lies somewhere in the middle which is usually "it doesn't matter".

[babylondonks 5]

I agree with this. But if he has a hand that will check behind on turn, I doubt he has a hand that will call a cr on the flop. What's more likely? That a late position raiser flopped a hand that will pay us off, or that he could make a hand on later streets that will pay us off? He could just as easily have 55 as I could. We're focusing on opposite ends of the same equation. Ya'll are assuming the villain already has a strong hand. I'm assuming he doesn't. The answer probably lies somewhere in the middle which is usually "it doesn't matter".

If you are the villain, and you have AA, you lead that flop when checked to, and you get c/r'd then compared to the turn, we're far more likely to be sticking around in case we hit our A, or a blank comes on the turn, or a 4th diamond if we have the Ad.And okay, assume the villain here has flopped absolutely nothing, two cards isn't going to let much catch up, and there's no use calling the flop bet trying to induce a later bet given the terrible terrible board texture. I can see where you're going, but it just really seems like a similar thought process to those who check aces in the BB in a family pot. Obviously nothing here is "outdrawing" us, but overall I think the money we win by a flop c/r against a middling strength hand is more than a flat on the flop and c/r on the turn (even though the latter would win us an extra few bets more often than the former wins us a bigger pot, it isn't enough to balance it out).Plus, like a few people said, I'm not sure about villains awareness at $50NL, but we're not playing this hand with much other than the nuts really.

[psujohn 0]

Ya'll are assuming the villain already has a strong hand. I'm assuming he doesn't.

I think you're completely wrong. First it doesn't matter if villain has a strong hand. It matters if he has a hand where he's willing to put in chips. In other words that includes draws. Second if villain has nothing sure there's a chance that he'll improve but the chances that he has a nothing hand that will improve to something that's willing to put more chips in the middle is slim. Another diamond only helps you if villain has exactly the Ad. If he has a small flopped flush he'll hate that card.The board pairing only helps you if villain flopped a set. If he flopped a flush or overpair he'll hate that card.Villain making a str8 won't matter a whole lot on this flop if you suddenly wake up and start acting strong.If villain has two overs and hits he's unlikely to stack off unless he's a complete idiot.Besides all that go back to the most basic principle of why we bet our monster hands. If villain has nothing you're likely to get nothing. If villain has a strong hand you need to get it all.

[mln_falcon 0]

Depends if he is talking PTBB or BB. If he is talking PTBB then 7 isn't a realistic goal at all. FWIW, to eliminate confusion I really think people should use PTBB since that is the most common term used and state that when they post.

What does HEM use? I really think we should start moving away from PTBB as more and more trackers come out.I also had a revelation yesterday. The reason I make so little FPPs at HU is that you don't earn a point until the rake reaches 50c, so a pot of $10. The only way this happens at nl100 is if there is a 3 bet pf and a call, or c bet on the flop and a call. However if I move up to 200nl anytime there is a single raise and a call pf the pot should be $12, giving a VPP.So I've decided to dedicate myself to HU play, and try and move up ASAP.

[Snamuh 0]

LOL donkaments but I shipped an extra 1291 tonight (1261 profit over the 6 tournies I played), because I decided to play a bunch of low buy-in tournies because I was bored. SHIP!

[mln_falcon 0]

LOL donkaments but I shipped an extra 1291 tonight (1261 profit over the 6 tournies I played), because I decided to play a bunch of low buy-in tournies because I was bored. SHIP!

Awesome. Was that because you're just a monster now or did you just put fresh batteries in your luckbox?

[TeeSludge 0]

Had 3rd worst day of online in my life yesterday. Gonna take today off and come back strong tomorrow. In the spirit of not posting my beats here are the two hands that I actually won yesterday. They were both against the same guy and despite these hands this insane german still managed to run his $87.15 up to 1k before quitting. He called literally any PF raise and I was making it up to $30 before he quit.Hand #1Full Tilt Poker $1/$2 No Limit Hold'em - 2 playersThe Official DeucesCracked.com Hand History ConverterHero (BTN/SB): $317.50BB: $620.05Pre Flop: Hero is BTN/SB with T T Hero raises to $16, BB calls $14Flop: ($32.00) 3 8 3 (2 players)BB bets $604.05 all in, Hero calls $301.50 all inTurn: ($635.00) 3 River: ($635.00) A Final Pot: $635.00Hero shows Ts Td (a full house, Threes full of Tens)BB shows 6d 8c (a full house, Threes full of Eights)Hero wins $634.50(Rake: $0.50)Hand #2Full Tilt Poker $1/$2 No Limit Hold'em - 2 playersThe Official DeucesCracked.com Hand History ConverterHero (BB): $205.60BTN/SB: $783.00Pre Flop: Hero is BB with J J BTN/SB raises to $4, Hero raises to $28, BTN/SB calls $24Flop: ($56.00) 9 4 A (2 players)Hero checks, BTN/SB checksTurn: ($56.00) K (2 players)Hero checks, BTN/SB bets $56, Hero calls $56River: ($168.00) 3 (2 players)Hero checks, BTN/SB bets $699 all in, Hero calls $121.60 all inFinal Pot: $411.20Hero shows Js Jd (a pair of Jacks)BTN/SB shows 2s 6h (Ace King high)Hero wins $410.70(Rake: $0.50)

[Gallo 1]

For the record, if you are doing it right, this is impossible.

its tough, but I dont think Rdog was saying that to you. He was talkin about Gallo losin his whole roll on one hand.

I didn't mean like your whole bankroll, I meant your buyin plus anything extra you've made in that session.

[Citizen Erased 0]

It annoys be how pathetic people are at $2, especially when they have the audacity to insult me for playing very LAG (since I'm only playing for fun). Ridiculous, really.

[ah2388 0]

weee,thats kind of a weird spot bull..i think i prefer raising the flop althoughi dont think flatting is as bad as everyone saysi kinda like flatting for the same reason that monotone boards seem to be good boards to bluff, its just kinda tough for him to have a big hand on a board like that..so much of his range misses imo

[ah2388 0]

also..if anyone is going to play today at all and wants to skype/sweat get at me on aimsn is same as here

[psujohn 0]

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (6 handed) Poker Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FCP)CO ($59.45)Hero ($57.35)SB ($42.55)BB ($52)UTG ($118.65)MP ($43.55)Preflop: Hero is Button with J , T . UTG calls $0.50, MP raises to $2, CO calls $2, Hero calls $2, SB raises to $8, 1 fold, UTG folds, MP calls $6, CO calls $6, Hero calls $6.Flop: ($33) J , 6 , 4 (4 players)SB bets $16, MP folds, CO raises to $36.5, Hero raises to $49.35Is this bad in the multiway pot and after CO shoves?

[donk4life 34]

97 hands this morning... Already up 110... sometimes I feel that some people who play HU honestly want to donate money.Poker StarsNo Limit Holdem Ring gameBlinds: $0.25/$0.502 playersConverterPre-flop: (2 players) Hero is BB with SB raises to $1.5, Hero raises to $6, SB calls.Flop: ($12, 2 players)Hero bets $6, SB raises all-in $34.9, Hero calls.Turn: ($81.8, 1 player + 1 all-in - Main pot: $81.8)River: ($81.8, 1 player + 1 all-in - Main pot: $81.8)Results:Final pot: $81.8Villain had q9Then.. against a person who raised 4x the BB every single hand.Poker StarsNo Limit Holdem Ring gameBlinds: $0.25/$0.502 playersConverterPre-flop: (2 players) Hero is SB with :icon_clap: Hero raises to $1.5, BB raises to $6, Hero raises all-in $43.3, BB calls all-in $29.7.Uncalled bets: $7.6 returned to Hero. Flop: ($71.4, 0 player + 2 all-in - Main pot: $71.4)Turn: ($71.4, 0 player + 2 all-in - Main pot: $71.4)River: ($71.4, 0 player + 2 all-in - Main pot: $71.4)Results:Final pot: $71.4Villain had A2and to top it off...Poker StarsNo Limit Holdem Ring gameBlinds: $0.25/$0.502 playersConverterPre-flop: (2 players) Hero is SB with :icon_clap: Hero raises to $1.5, BB calls.Flop: :icon_clap: ($3, 2 players)BB checks, Hero bets $2, BB raises all-in $12.8, Hero calls.Turn: ($28.6, 1 player + 1 all-in - Main pot: $28.6)River: ($28.6, 1 player + 1 all-in - Main pot: $28.6)Villain had q10