New Challenge (old Challenge)

[TB17 0]

Villain is bagclip2005, 20/17/4.1 over 450 hands...PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $1.00 BB (5 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.comUTG ($146.60)MP ($25.10)Button ($149.90)Hero (SB) ($207.85)BB ($161.35)Preflop: Hero is SB with , 1 fold, MP raises to $5, Button raises to $17, Hero raises to $40, 2 folds, Button calls $23Flop: ($86) , , (2 players)Hero checks, Button checksTurn: ($86) (2 players)Hero checks, Button bets $46 Heroooooooooooo?

[gary21212121 0]

ughhhhjust had a horrible session, graph to come though!

Jan so far

[TB17 0]

whyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy

[aussiedonk 0]

I have been running into this spot a lot recently and am trying to develop the best way of dealing with it. Here is the hand:PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $4.00 BB (6 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.comSB ($536)BB ($80)Hero (UTG) ($577.30)MP ($801.80)CO ($506.60)Button ($882.10)Preflop: Hero is UTG with 10, QHero raises to $12, MP calls $12, 4 foldsFlop: ($30) K, 9, J(2 players)Hero bets $20, MP calls $20Turn: ($70) 8(2 players)Hero checks, MP bets $42, Hero raises to $165, MP calls $123River: ($400) J(2 players)Hero bets $112, MP calls $112Total pot: $624 | Rake: $3Villian was not a reg. Don't have stats as not using a HUD atm. From what I had seen he was loose passive, generally not great.After he calls the turn checkraise I figure the majority of his range comprises KQ / 2 pair / combo draws with 10s or clubs. I don't think he ever has a naked J but I think he has J10 a decent amount.On river eff stacks are $380. On that river I feel like he isn't calling a pot size shove with anything we're ahead of other than J10 (maaaybe fold that but probably not this particular villian). I feel like he is folding all his kings and 2 pair hands that didn't boat up. So I went for a 1/4ish pot bet. I was folding to a shove because I think he almost always has a hand with at least a little showdown value, and can't see him turning anything into a bluff. For the same reason, if I check and he bets I think I am usually behind (although again he would bet the jack sometimes but probably wouldn't shove it). In any event I don't feel to great about check / snapping off a shove.I feel like he calls the 1/4 pot bet with the majority of hands he called the turn with. What do you guys think of this line? If you like it, do you like the bet sizing?Also do you think it is any good against regs? I mean I can't really see a decent reg getting to the river this may with pretty much anything, but if he does, is he ever turning KQ into a bluff?

[Zach6668 513]

^^ I think I bet more for value, about $200-250 seems ok.The problem, imho, with a 1/4 pot bet, is that we plan on folding to a shove. Ok, that's cool, vs some people, but a lot of guys will interpret it as weakness and bluff shove with some of their weaker made hands, and whatever missed draws they may have.At the same time, we have about ~$380 left, so if we bet $250, we definitely aren't folding to a shove since it'd only be an additional $130, and he could always just have Jx for some reason.My biggest thing, is that I don't know shit about 6-max, so maybe I'm way off, but in heads up, I'm never ever folding this, ever. Like, in this spot, what could he have that beats us? Surely a set puts in more action. A set should definitely be 3-betting the turn here, if they slowplayed the flop, right? KJ should have put in more action as well, similar to a set. I suppose he could have J9, but not raising the flop on that board just seems criminal, although if he's passive, that's certainly possible. Maybe J8? What cards could he have that get there as a backdoor flush? He can't have Jx of clubs, of course, so the only pair/club draw he could have would be the KcXc. I suppose that would fit with the action, somewhat, although I'd imagine some people, particularly those who might be passive, would check the turn back with a weak top pair hand. AKcc should 3-bet preflop, but it can't be ruled out, KQcc, KTcc, K7cc, etc. I suppose QcXc and TcXc might be there as well, but most would be folded preflop, as most connected hands are not possible due to the clubs that are on board.Fwiw, if you bet 1/4 on the river, I don't think a reg would turn KQ into a bluff, but he'd probably turn a worse hand into one. A missed flush draw maybe, etc.

[aussiedonk 0]

^^ I think I bet more for value, about $200-250 seems ok.The problem, imho, with a 1/4 pot bet, is that we plan on folding to a shove. Ok, that's cool, vs some people, but a lot of guys will interpret it as weakness and bluff shove with some of their weaker made hands, and whatever missed draws they may have.At the same time, we have about ~$380 left, so if we bet $250, we definitely aren't folding to a shove since it'd only be an additional $130, and he could always just have Jx for some reason.My biggest thing, is that I don't know shit about 6-max, so maybe I'm way off, but in heads up, I'm never ever folding this, ever. Like, in this spot, what could he have that beats us? Surely a set puts in more action. A set should definitely be 3-betting the turn here, if they slowplayed the flop, right? KJ should have put in more action as well, similar to a set. I suppose he could have J9, but not raising the flop on that board just seems criminal, although if he's passive, that's certainly possible. Maybe J8? What cards could he have that get there as a backdoor flush? He can't have Jx of clubs, of course, so the only pair/club draw he could have would be the KcXc. I suppose that would fit with the action, somewhat, although I'd imagine some people, particularly those who might be passive, would check the turn back with a weak top pair hand. AKcc should 3-bet preflop, but it can't be ruled out, KQcc, KTcc, K7cc, etc. I suppose QcXc and TcXc might be there as well, but most would be folded preflop, as most connected hands are not possible due to the clubs that are on board.Fwiw, if you bet 1/4 on the river, I don't think a reg would turn KQ into a bluff, but he'd probably turn a worse hand into one. A missed flush draw maybe, etc.

I agree with a lot of what you have said and will have to think a bit more deeply about it when I stop grinding. Most obvious question from my perspective - what hands are you getting value from with a bet in the $200-$250 range? I guess al jacks - do you think anything else calls?I would be interested to hear other views about whether regs will bluffshove this river often.

[Zach6668 513]

I agree with a lot of what you have said and will have to think a bit more deeply about it when I stop grinding. Most obvious question from my perspective - what hands are you getting value from with a bet in the $200-$250 range? I guess al jacks - do you think anything else calls?I would be interested to hear other views about whether regs will bluffshove this river often.

If he's a bit passive, I suppose a hand like AK could be in his range, and he'd probably not fold that, if he called the turn. Same goes for KQ. It doesn't make much sense for him to have anything here, heh. A flush draw is possible for sure, he bets the turn with a hand he can't show down unimproved, then calls because he has 4 of the same symbol, lol. Of course, we get no value from that by betting.I'm just kinda thinking out loud in this, and the previous post.

[aussiedonk 0]

If he's a bit passive, I suppose a hand like AK could be in his range, and he'd probably not fold that, if he called the turn. Same goes for KQ. It doesn't make much sense for him to have anything here, heh. A flush draw is possible for sure, he bets the turn with a hand he can't show down unimproved, then calls because he has 4 of the same symbol, lol. Of course, we get no value from that by betting.I'm just kinda thinking out loud in this, and the previous post.

Four of the same symbol is a strong hand.He actually had KQo here FWIW. I am pretty sure he would have folded to a shove. For $200-$250 - I just don't know. Next time I will try your line and see what happens

[aussiedonk 0]

I had a brief discussion with some of you guys a few days ago about checking AK on an AJJ flop. I think it has some merit.What do you think of this line? No reads - have never seen the villain before but he had a full BI and was on a few tables.Obv looking for thoughts on river shove. PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $4.00 BB (5 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.comHero (MP) ($1002.90)Button ($412)SB ($485.60)BB ($412)UTG ($466)Preflop: Hero is MP with A, KUTG raises to $12, Hero raises to $44, 3 folds, UTG calls $32Flop: ($94) 10, A, 10(2 players)UTG checks, Hero checksTurn: ($94) 8(2 players)UTG checks, Hero bets $65, UTG calls $65River: ($224) 4(2 players)UTG bets $105, Hero raises to $893.90 (All-In), 1 foldTotal pot: $434 | Rake: $2

[Giggidy 0]

Bah, lifetilt - i just went thru clicking the quote button for everyone who said the were in the HU matches thinking when I hit reply it'd have all their names, but it didn't workList off the top of my head - quote this add your name if I missed you off, or u wanna join in.I dunno how the LHE ppl did it, but i was planning to put out who's drawn against who, then you pm or w/e to sort a time when you can both playGonna do it on Tilt, as Merby can't do Stars and I don't have an account either, it's only cheap anysways for the $2 SnG'sListGiggidyCwikJordypopRonJesseSnamuhKingTB17MlnfalconFighterAASnakeSpeedkillsI'll sort the brackets tonight, bring it beeeecheeeezzzz

[SlapStick 0]

I had a brief discussion with some of you guys a few days ago about checking AK on an AJJ flop. I think it has some merit.

In that hand Hero was out of position. I like the line, a lot of smaller pairs will have a harder time getting away and lets opponent have a go at the pot.

[Suited_Up 2]

Bah, lifetilt - i just went thru clicking the quote button for everyone who said the were in the HU matches thinking when I hit reply it'd have all their names, but it didn't workList off the top of my head - quote this add your name if I missed you off, or u wanna join in.I dunno how the LHE ppl did it, but i was planning to put out who's drawn against who, then you pm or w/e to sort a time when you can both playGonna do it on Tilt, as Merby can't do Stars and I don't have an account either, it's only cheap anysways for the $2 SnG'sListGiggidyCwikJordypopRonJesseSnamuhKingTB17MlnfalconFighterAASnakeSpeedkillsI'll sort the brackets tonight, bring it beeeecheeeezzzz

Forgot me.

[Suited_Up 2]

Also, God Dammit Tilt!I'm waiting on 2 bank transfers, and now 1 check also.....

Hello Kurt, Thank you for your response. We certainly understand your frustration surrounding this issue, as well as your urgency to receive your funds. While we're unable to provide you with an exact date of when to expect your withdrawal, we assure you that you'll receive your funds if the banking information you provided was correct. Due to these recent processing issues, our Bank Transfer withdrawal option has been temporarily suspended and we apologize for any inconvenience. If there had been reason to suspect our third party processor would experience these issues before, we would have taken a proactive approach and suspended our Bank Transfer withdrawal option sooner. Unfortunately, we did not anticipate such difficulties, but we're working diligently to accommodate our players as best we can and will update you as soon as we have any new information. Again, we're sorry we can't offer you any further information regarding this issue at this time. Please take comfort in knowing there are many people working right now to correct this problem and we hope to have the issue resolved as soon as possible. We appreciate your continued patience and understanding. Regards, PatriciaFull Tilt Poker Support

[bull62 0]

Bah, lifetilt - i just went thru clicking the quote button for everyone who said the were in the HU matches thinking when I hit reply it'd have all their names, but it didn't workList off the top of my head - quote this add your name if I missed you off, or u wanna join in.I dunno how the LHE ppl did it, but i was planning to put out who's drawn against who, then you pm or w/e to sort a time when you can both playGonna do it on Tilt, as Merby can't do Stars and I don't have an account either, it's only cheap anysways for the $2 SnG'sListGiggidyCwikJordypopRonJesseSnamuhKingTB17MlnfalconFighterAASnakeSpeedkillsI'll sort the brackets tonight, bring it beeeecheeeezzzz

Ummmm...hello.

[Citizen Erased 0]

Bah, lifetilt - i just went thru clicking the quote button for everyone who said the were in the HU matches thinking when I hit reply it'd have all their names, but it didn't workList off the top of my head - quote this add your name if I missed you off, or u wanna join in.I dunno how the LHE ppl did it, but i was planning to put out who's drawn against who, then you pm or w/e to sort a time when you can both playGonna do it on Tilt, as Merby can't do Stars and I don't have an account either, it's only cheap anysways for the $2 SnG'sListGiggidyCwikJordypopRonJesseSnamuhKingTB17MlnfalconFighterAASnakeSpeedkillsBullSuitedUpCitizenErasedI'll sort the brackets tonight, bring it beeeecheeeezzzz

[Naked_Cowboy 0]

*cue cardcore's graphs*

seth is playing shorthanded LO8. it's pretty significantly different than PLO, which is what i assume he's talking about. I would argue that the most effective strategy in PLO is a loose very aggressive one unless you're playing full ring. If you come from a purely hold 'em background though, you will feel you are playing too loose sometimes when instead you may just be playing the wrong type of hands too often.

[Zach6668 513]

Four of the same symbol is a strong hand.He actually had KQo here FWIW. I am pretty sure he would have folded to a shove. For $200-$250 - I just don't know. Next time I will try your line and see what happens

Just keep in mind I haven't played 6-max in like 2 years. The guys I play HU would never fold top pair in a million years, but it's a bit more understandable in that game.

[Jordan 1]

who is jordypop?lol. i dont think ill be playing. prob a game time decision

[Giggidy 0]

who is jordypop?lol. i dont think ill be playing. prob a game time decision

jordan/jordypop all teh samegame time whatnow? ill need2 know in the next few hrs as we`re doin brackets

[therescav 0]

Decided to play HU cash tonight at .25/.50, my god there are some bad players there. Might play again soon, I felt really comfortable there.Just one thing though, I'm still a bit retarded when it comes to HEM.... what exactly is my non-showdown winnings line indicating?

[Citizen Erased 0]

game time whatnow? ill need2 know in the next few hrs as we`re doin brackets

What time do you intend on the games taking place.My partaking is dependent on this

[bull62 0]

what exactly is my non-showdown winnings line indicating?

Your net winnings without a showdown.

[qyayqi 11]

Bah, lifetilt - i just went thru clicking the quote button for everyone who said the were in the HU matches thinking when I hit reply it'd have all their names, but it didn't workList off the top of my head - quote this add your name if I missed you off, or u wanna join in.I dunno how the LHE ppl did it, but i was planning to put out who's drawn against who, then you pm or w/e to sort a time when you can both playGonna do it on Tilt, as Merby can't do Stars and I don't have an account either, it's only cheap anysways for the $2 SnG'sListGiggidyCwikJordypopRonJesseSnamuhKingTB17MlnfalconFighterAASnakeSpeedkillsI'll sort the brackets tonight, bring it beeeecheeeezzzz

i'll bring my A game, honest.

[Giggidy 0]

What time do you intend on the games taking place.My partaking is dependent on this

whenevers convenient. its not gonna be practical2 get them all done in 1night, so ill publish the brackets n y`all can contact whoever you're listed2 play and arrange a time.would rather it didn't take 2days plus, obv, as it has a knock on effect 2 everyone

[Acid_Knight 2]

Bah, lifetilt - i just went thru clicking the quote button for everyone who said the were in the HU matches thinking when I hit reply it'd have all their names, but it didn't workList off the top of my head - quote this add your name if I missed you off, or u wanna join in.I dunno how the LHE ppl did it, but i was planning to put out who's drawn against who, then you pm or w/e to sort a time when you can both playGonna do it on Tilt, as Merby can't do Stars and I don't have an account either, it's only cheap anysways for the $2 SnG'sListGiggidyCwikJordypopRonJesseSnamuhKingTB17MlnfalconFighterAASnakeSpeedkillsI'll sort the brackets tonight, bring it beeeecheeeezzzz

Let me know details of when this might go down and what I'd have to do, but if I'm available, I'm certainly in.