New Challenge (old Challenge)

[PrtyPSux 0]

No, I mean flatting my 4 bet as opposed to shoving or folding.

I dunno if I believe that your 4 bets only get flatted .003% of the time...unless you're only 4betting AK...and even then...I mean you get AK like 7500 times in 600k hands, and you'll get 3bet at least, like what? 350 of those times? So if you're only 4betting that I'd be willing to bet theres enough retards at 1/2 and 2/4 that will flat call you there at least 5 or 10 of those times. I might be way off though but man .003% sounds absurd to the point where the games must be absolutely terrible always if you don't ever run into a fish that calls 4bets 100 deeb.

I disagree that he isn't putting more money in on the river unimproved. And there is certainly a better chance of him doing it there than on the flop.

not if you bet $26.....also, on this board there are very few hands that will remain "unimproved" by the river regardless of what his range for flatting a 4 bet is. and I still don't think that QQ or KK will turn their hand into a bluff on the river too often, JJ might if the river is a 2c (JJ will prob just shove the turn though when it's an 8). if the river is a non heart JT7KQ are you really all that happy to call?

And as for the bolded, that would matter more if I might fold. Although there will be some cards that I don't love, his true outs are usually going to be 4 at most.

if he's tight like SUPER tight his range is AA-JJ and maybe TT. if his range is loose, it's even worse for you to slowplay here bc you'll be beat by the river way too often if you don't improve. If you were up vs someone who 4 bet you and u happened to missclick flat call him with KK or QQ are you shoving the river when it gets checked down? and if so, why?

[PrtyPSux 0]

JC , you playing Festa Al Lago events?Prolly stop by on Day 1 ME. Gonna still be there for the wifes B-day long weekend.

sigh...my backer is a moron and I might end up not playing the ME.,..3k and 2 5ks though regardless....So I might see ya down there.

[The Lobster 0]

win in LV!

TYTY, will do!Oh, and you don't know me JC, but please keep hanging around here. kthx

[PrtyPSux 0]

To JC and RDog.I think I'm right to assume that you guys have very different styles. I'm assuming that JC is a LAG and RDog is a TAG. Does this play into the different way you guys would play the hand? Like RDog says, he doesn't 4 bet often, only his big hands, whereas JC is laggier and possibly 4bets alot of different hands. So I can see how JC would bet the flop cause he would probably get much more action from this hand and RDog would probably get no action if he bets the flop.Am I correct in my assumption on the reason why you 2 guys would probably play the hand differently?

I don't 4 bet very often at all, I'm just saying betting $26 is better in all circumstances for a lot of reasons I've already explained. This is not something I just made up out of thin air, a while ago I had like a 40 minute long conversation with people that are better and more experienced than I am in these spots and I was convinced it was a better play, that's pretty much it. You guys are kinda acting like a $26 bet into 130 or whatever is going to kill our action far worse than a check on the flop. All it's doing is giving us more options / extracting more value. It also doesn't matter what your 4 bet range is because even if you're really tight QQ and KK will be in your range more often than AA will and when the A flops you'll be in an awkward spot where It'll probably be better to bet $26.

[RDog 0]

I dunno if I believe that your 4 bets only get flatted .003% of the time...unless you're only 4betting AK...and even then...I mean you get AK like 7500 times in 600k hands, and you'll get 3bet at least, like what? 350 of those times? So if you're only 4betting that I'd be willing to bet theres enough retards at 1/2 and 2/4 that will flat call you there at least 5 or 10 of those times. I might be way off though but man .003% sounds absurd to the point where the games must be absolutely terrible always if you don't ever run into a fish that calls 4bets 100 deeb.not if you bet $26.....also, on this board there are very few hands that will remain "unimproved" by the river regardless of what his range for flatting a 4 bet is. and I still don't think that QQ or KK will turn their hand into a bluff on the river too often, JJ might if the river is a 2c (JJ will prob just shove the turn though when it's an 8). if the river is a non heart JT7KQ are you really all that happy to call? if he's tight like SUPER tight his range is AA-JJ and maybe TT. if his range is loose, it's even worse for you to slowplay here bc you'll be beat by the river way too often if you don't improve. If you were up vs someone who 4 bet you and u happened to missclick flat call him with KK or QQ are you shoving the river when it gets checked down? and if so, why?

Most fish don't have 100 BBs to begin with and any decent reg is pretty much never flatting a 4 bet OOP.I said I wouldn't be too happy with some cards but you are giving him an entire range of outs which in actuality he isn't ever going to have too many. Even better chance that he might turn his hand into a bluff because there are some scary cards that can roll off.There is a decent chance that I would bluff catch on the river with QQ, KK so yeah, I think he could.Edit: And like I said, there is definitely some merit to trying to induce a spazz shove. Just not sure it is best here cause I don't think if I make an inducing bet on the flop and then shove the river that he is going to bluff catch anymore with QQ, KK type hands. Regardless of how much I bet, he is still going to see it as me betting 2 streets.

[dtblizz 0]

brutal ****in start to the sessionkk<ak, kk<qq, qq<jj all of those all in prejj<ak...all in on 99103 turn with 70bb in pot and 70bb behind

[PrtyPSux 0]

Most fish don't have 100 BBs to begin with and any decent reg is pretty much never flatting a 4 bet OOP.I said I wouldn't be too happy with some cards but you are giving him an entire range of outs which in actuality he isn't ever going to have too many. Even better chance that he might turn his hand into a bluff because there are some scary cards that can roll off.There is a decent chance that I would bluff catch on the river with QQ, KK so yeah, I think he could.

I flat 4bets 100 deep oop fwiw....I disagree that he's turning KK or QQ into a bluff when a J T 8 9 7 or Q roll off. Prob not even when an A rolls off..meh just sucks you lost with the TP+FD i guess.

[RDog 0]

I flat 4bets 100 deep oop fwiw....I disagree that he's turning KK or QQ into a bluff when a J T 8 9 7 or Q roll off. Prob not even when an A rolls off..meh just sucks you lost with the TP+FD i guess.

I don't really see how that could possibly be profitable if you are doing it regularly.I'm not saying he is just turning them into a bluff only, I am saying either that or if I check 2 streets he might bluff catch with them.

[Ex_Matt 0]

??

The table had a buncha donks on it. Nevermind.

[TB17 0]

I agree with RDog, hes not spazz shoving too often, I check behind there pretty much always. I can't really think of a hand I should be betting there, although I do agree with JC that IF I'm gonna bet, it's gotta be around that $25-30 size. Betting more just isn't good.And theres no way flatting 4 bets with 100 BB especially oop can be a good thing. At least with hands that arent AA/KK against an aggrotard.

[Snamuh 0]

Without burning bridges (as I seem to do too often), I agree with RDog on most of what he's said. That said, I agree with JC's logic that betting small is a good line as well. However, I definitely disagree about flatting 4 bets OOP 100 BB deep, and I disagree about his assumptions about 4betting ranges at lower stakes (especially 200 NL, where the games tend to play fairly nitty in comparison to 2/4+).

[Suited_Up 2]

Fair enough, I wasn't exactly sure how to take it so I asked for a couple of opinions before I responded and it did appear you were trying to say I was being a dick.

Back from dinner now... Didn't read anything new yet but...Yeah, I know that would be the normal way to take it. I tried to word it in as harmless a way as I could. But still make it semi funny. It was a tough thing to balance. I do think you've been very helpful today though. Just trying to fully explain my side on the rest of the stuff.

[Suited_Up 2]

Seems to me that it's a pretty close call on the check or bet small thing. I don't think it turns out a ton different either way for the most part.

[Jordan 1]

PLO Cap. I wanted to put in a lot of hands (takes forever 4 tabling plo)...kinda wish I quit earlier now.was such a freaking sick swongy session. Had one totally crazy guy playing all day, then another showed up, everytime I'd get close to robusto I'd lose like every hand...really was frustrating...sighalmost all was 5/10...like 500 hands at 3/6- Jordan

[Jordan 1]

this was the one nut...his total winnings line mirrors the blue showdown winnings line..idk why, but uhm yea. lol

[Suited_Up 2]

this was the one nut...his total winnings line mirrors the blue showdown winnings line..idk why, but uhm yea. lol

Seriously, it's under there? Is that like the ultimate nut peddler?

[Dratj 0]

I don't 4 bet very often at all, I'm just saying betting $26 is better in all circumstances for a lot of reasons I've already explained. This is not something I just made up out of thin air, a while ago I had like a 40 minute long conversation with people that are better and more experienced than I am in these spots and I was convinced it was a better play, that's pretty much it. You guys are kinda acting like a $26 bet into 130 or whatever is going to kill our action far worse than a check on the flop. All it's doing is giving us more options / extracting more value. It also doesn't matter what your 4 bet range is because even if you're really tight QQ and KK will be in your range more often than AA will and when the A flops you'll be in an awkward spot where It'll probably be better to bet $26.

So, how much do you bet on the turn then?

[Snamuh 0]

Villain is a regular that I've played a bit with more recently, though I think he's new to Cake midstakes. I've 3bet him a few times and I kind of expected him to not give me much credit here. Flop obviously sucks but I don't really expect him to have a king really often unless he has KQ. I'd almost certainly expect AK/JJ+ to 4bet here.http://www.pokerhand.org/?3296908Edit: I'm asking for opinions. Bet/call turn? Check/shove? Keep in mind we have no fold equity. Check/fold??????

[cwik 0]

this was the one nut...his total winnings line mirrors the blue showdown winnings line..idk why, but uhm yea. lol

lol, musta sucked balls when you were running under EV for 5 hands.

[Jordan 1]

Seriously, it's under there? Is that like the ultimate nut peddler?

no he was anything but that

[Gallo 1]

I don't 4 bet very often at all, I'm just saying betting $26 is better in all circumstances for a lot of reasons I've already explained. This is not something I just made up out of thin air, a while ago I had like a 40 minute long conversation with people that are better and more experienced than I am in these spots and I was convinced it was a better play, that's pretty much it. You guys are kinda acting like a $26 bet into 130 or whatever is going to kill our action far worse than a check on the flop. All it's doing is giving us more options / extracting more value. It also doesn't matter what your 4 bet range is because even if you're really tight QQ and KK will be in your range more often than AA will and when the A flops you'll be in an awkward spot where It'll probably be better to bet $26.

I don't think I said that betting that small amount would kill action. Actually I had posted earlier on why not bet a small amount and allow the villain to view it as a weak bet and make a mistake by hopefully either r/r'ing or calling with a hand that is dominated. I see both sides of the strategy on this hand.

[Suited_Up 2]

no he was anything but that

How did he do that then?

[bull62 0]

Villain is a regular that I've played a bit with more recently, though I think he's new to Cake midstakes. I've 3bet him a few times and I kind of expected him to not give me much credit here. Flop obviously sucks but I don't really expect him to have a king really often unless he has KQ. I'd almost certainly expect AK/JJ+ to 4bet here.http://www.pokerhand.org/?3296908Edit: I'm asking for opinions. Bet/call turn? Check/shove? Keep in mind we have no fold equity. Check/fold??????

edit: my feeble attempt at analyzing a midstakes hand. flame away. This is one of those spots where I get killed playing a big pot with one pair. You're hardly ever ahead here at 25 or 50NL. Usually you'll see TT, TJs, AQ, or AK, maybe some retarded diamonds. AK doesn't 4bet very often at lower stakes. That being said, I have no idea how 400NL plays, but you do have outs against every hand that beats you except AQ and you've even got a couple of chop outs there. If we're discounting JJ+/AK, I guess we have to shove.edit after I saw your edit: I don't like to give away to betting lead unless we want the villain to bet fwiw. I would bet/call turn.

[simo_8ball 0]

this was the one nut...his total winnings line mirrors the blue showdown winnings line..idk why, but uhm yea. lol

PokerEV can't enumerate hands where it doesn't know hole cards. The only hands it shows of his are the showdown hands.

[Dratj 0]

Villain is a regular that I've played a bit with more recently, though I think he's new to Cake midstakes. I've 3bet him a few times and I kind of expected him to not give me much credit here. Flop obviously sucks but I don't really expect him to have a king really often unless he has KQ. I'd almost certainly expect AK/JJ+ to 4bet here.http://www.pokerhand.org/?3296908Edit: I'm asking for opinions. Bet/call turn? Check/shove? Keep in mind we have no fold equity. Check/fold??????

fold. just a gut feeling.