Hektor 0 Posted February 13, 2007 Share Posted February 13, 2007 Here's the hand in question:Full Tilt Poker Game #1786237679: $5 + $0.50 Sit & Go (13227117), Table 2 - 15/30 - No Limit Hold'em - 23:23:29 ET - 2007/02/12The button is in seat #9*** HOLE CARDS ***Dealt to MrSchou [Qs Kd]BOS foldsdrumbeat101 foldsboots2814 foldsdizzymmd calls 3056 Oger foldsgotouts101 calls 30MrSchou calls 30SanDiegoTex calls 15Bakie checks*** FLOP *** [Kc 4h Qc] (pot is 150)SanDiegoTex checksBakie checksdizzymmd bets 90gotouts101 foldsMrSchou raises to 300SanDiegoTex foldsBakie foldsdizzymmd calls 210*** TURN *** [Kc 4h Qc] [2c](pot is 750)dizzymmd checksMrSchou bets 170dizzymmd calls 170*** RIVER *** [Kc 4h Qc 2c] [5h](pot is 1090)dizzymmd checksMrSchou checks*** SHOW DOWN ***MrSchou shows [Qs Kd] (two pair, Kings and Queens)dizzymmd shows [Ac 8c] (a flush, Ace high)dizzymmd wins the pot (1,090) with a flush, Ace high*** SUMMARY ***Total pot 1,090 | Rake 0Board: [Kc 4h Qc 2c 5h]Seat 1: SanDiegoTex (small blind) folded on the FlopSeat 2: Bakie (big blind) folded on the FlopSeat 3: BOS didn't bet (folded)Seat 4: drumbeat101 didn't bet (folded)Seat 5: boots2814 didn't bet (folded)Seat 6: dizzymmd showed [Ac 8c] and won (1,090) with a flush, Ace highSeat 7: 56 Oger didn't bet (folded)Seat 8: gotouts101 folded on the FlopSeat 9: MrSchou (button) showed [Qs Kd] and lost with two pair, Kings and QueensI'm curious if my $300 bet on the flop is a bit much. I wanted to shake anyone off of a potential draw, and the 170 bet on the turn was a mix of wanting to test the waters with a moderate bet.He calls both, so I'm thinking either Ax suited for the flush, KK or QQ. Not worried about AA due to flatcalling preflop. AA in these buy-in tournaments are almost always heavily bet in my experience (not that many SNG's though, only about 250 I think), especially on the first hand.Anyway back to my question - is it possible to get away cheaper from this hand, without letting the straight and flush draw in (not counting an all-in bet of course)? Link to post Share on other sites
HijackedAffairs 0 Posted February 13, 2007 Share Posted February 13, 2007 I like it. You want your opponent to call off as many chips as possible when you are ahead. You lost the minimum here. Link to post Share on other sites
copernicus 0 Posted February 13, 2007 Share Posted February 13, 2007 I dont think the 300 is enough. It gives him about 2.5:1 odds and with that board he could easily be on 11 and 12 out draws. Youre way ahead of anything reasonable at this point and need to make it a difficult decision for him. I would raise to 500 here and let him chase. If he calls youre almost certain hes on Ax clubs or an even better draw and can fold to any bet on the turn or river. Link to post Share on other sites
ramenandeggs 0 Posted February 13, 2007 Share Posted February 13, 2007 i woulda folded preflop, just still too early for a sit n go for me. but as played, i'm ok with flop raise, turn in my opinion wouldn't scare anyone off. if you're ahead you're not protecting your hand, if you're behind, the pot odds are so great you're not defining anything. also, don't display results, and convert your hands. this is the converter for full tilt. http://www.neildewhurst.com/hand-converter/ Link to post Share on other sites
irishguy 14 Posted February 13, 2007 Share Posted February 13, 2007 As stated above I would've made the flop raise in the 500 range. Your turn bet is awful IMO. If you are going to bet that litttle on the turn you may as well have just checked behind him because a bet that small serves no purpose. Link to post Share on other sites
cubbybri 0 Posted February 13, 2007 Share Posted February 13, 2007 I dont think the 300 is enough. It gives him about 2.5:1 odds and with that board he could easily be on 11 and 12 out draws. Youre way ahead of anything reasonable at this point and need to make it a difficult decision for him. I would raise to 500 here and let him chase. If he calls youre almost certain hes on Ax clubs or an even better draw and can fold to any bet on the turn or river. Just more of question to learn a bit here. If I know a player overbets the pot and then will bow out when the scare card hits on turn, as the villain am I not obligated to call this bet and then lead out the turn? I personally try to keep all my betting consistent so that no one can pick up on my betting patterns. To me this screams something is off with the Hero and if I can use that against them, I will. I am not saying this is the wrong play but for future hands I'm not sure this is the right thing to do UNLESS I plan to set up this same play with the nuts at another point in the tourney. Again, not saying this is wrong, just would like more info please. Link to post Share on other sites
irishguy 14 Posted February 13, 2007 Share Posted February 13, 2007 Just more of question to learn a bit here. If I know a player overbets the pot and then will bow out when the scare card hits on turn, as the villain am I not obligated to call this bet and then lead out the turn? I personally try to keep all my betting consistent so that no one can pick up on my betting patterns. To me this screams something is off with the Hero and if I can use that against them, I will. I am not saying this is the wrong play but for future hands I'm not sure this is the right thing to do UNLESS I plan to set up this same play with the nuts at another point in the tourney. Again, not saying this is wrong, just would like more info please. I def think that this bet on the turn gives the villian a chance to take this pot with nothing. Like I said earlier this turn bet serves no purpose. If I'm villian even without the flush I may check raise here/lead river or call/lead river. Because a third club hits you can't auto assume that his flush hit you need to either bet bigger on the turn or check behind and be willing to call a small river value bet. Link to post Share on other sites
Jam-Fly 8 Posted February 13, 2007 Share Posted February 13, 2007 As the hand played out, anyone put much thought into a river bet? The turn bet screams weakness so maybe the villain thinks the only way to make any money is to let you bluff at the pot, maybe that's why he checked. But there's alot of hands your beating here on the river. Copernicus, your magic math? Link to post Share on other sites
cubbybri 0 Posted February 13, 2007 Share Posted February 13, 2007 I def think that this bet on the turn gives the villian a chance to take this pot with nothing. Like I said earlier this turn bet serves no purpose. If I'm villian even without the flush I may check raise here/lead river or call/lead river. Because a third club hits you can't auto assume that his flush hit you need to either bet bigger on the turn or check behind and be willing to call a small river value bet.So check raise or value bet may better, would this svae OP any money though?My biggest question, is how can a bigger flop bet help you in these situations? Is it something where, if player calls and the clubs come that you have to fold to any playback/aggressision?If you do not, are you not giving the implied odds on the draw that villain may have called for in the first place?Again, not flaming any responses but these are the types of things I admit, I have trouble with comprehending. To me a bigger bet gives me more reason for chaser to go after implied odds if you pay him off. And as said, just because the club hits doesn't mean he has the flush.I don't even know if making sense atm or asking the right question. My apologies if that is the case. Link to post Share on other sites
irishguy 14 Posted February 13, 2007 Share Posted February 13, 2007 So check raise or value bet may better, would this svae OP any money though?My biggest question, is how can a bigger flop bet help you in these situations? Is it something where, if player calls and the clubs come that you have to fold to any playback/aggressision?If you do not, are you not giving the implied odds on the draw that villain may have called for in the first place?Again, not flaming any responses but these are the types of things I admit, I have trouble with comprehending. To me a bigger bet gives me more reason for chaser to go after implied odds if you pay him off. And as said, just because the club hits doesn't mean he has the flush.I don't even know if making sense atm or asking the right question. My apologies if that is the case. As Villian certainly a check raise or value bet could've saved hero money, the problem being Villian could be doing this with air if he reads the turn bet as weak as it is. By betting scared based solely on the fact that a club came on the turn you are opening yourself up to be run over in the long term IMO. As for the betting/odds a huge object in poker is to get your opponents to make calls that aren't mathmatically sound thus juicing in the pot in your favour. As Copernicus stated we are giving Villian 2.5-1 on his money to call (meaning if villian feels he is 40% or so chance to win this hand(which any hand with 11 or 12 outs is) he makes the call. This is a draw heavy board and the last thing we want is to be giving draws the right price....we want them to make mistakes not the other way around. By raising the flop to 500 we are now giving Villian 1.8-1 meaning he has to be about 56% to win the hand for this to be a profitable call by him. If he is willing to call the bet here the pot gets bigger based on his error not ours. This is also where the turn bet becomes an even bigger error. Lets say for example Vilian is on a hand like Ac Qd where he flopped mid pair with the backdoor draw. Nowwith a hand like this yes he made a mistake calling the flop raise but now we are giving him 5.4-1 to call the turn meaning he needs to feel he is 18% to make the best hand on the river... hope this helps a bit. Link to post Share on other sites
Zach6668 513 Posted February 13, 2007 Share Posted February 13, 2007 Hey Hektor,I just wanted to let you know that it's recommended to convert your hands before posting. I'll assume you just weren't aware of that, so I just wanted to give you think like where you can do that for future posts:http://www.neildewhurst.com/hand-converter/I actually tried to convert the HH you included in your post above, but it was messing up, and I'm not 100% sure why. As far as I know, the link above is compatible with Full Tilt hand histories, so it could have just been a small glitch. Either way, I just wanted to let you know about the converter for the next time you wanted to post a hand or two.Cheers.- Zach Link to post Share on other sites
Hektor 0 Posted February 13, 2007 Author Share Posted February 13, 2007 First off, thank you all for the replies, secondly thank you for the link to that converter. Hadn't seen that one before.As for folding the hand preflop, that wouldn't be out of line for me with that hand in the first hand of a SNG, but I was getting something like 5:1 on it.The turn bet is horribly low, but the pot is so large, that I can't see any kind of bet that would allow me to keep my money at all (outside of me hitting a full house on the river). The pot is $750 and each of us has $1.000 each. If he has a flush, I'm screwed as it is on the turn; if he's on a straight draw, sure, he only has between 4 and 8 outs, but in my experience, 5 dollar sit'n'go's aren't exactly known for players who mind going all in on that kind of draw.The flop bet ... I hadn't even given much thought to the fact that I was giving the villain 2.5:1 odds., which is perfectly in line with the odds of hitting his flush.Thank you guys Link to post Share on other sites
copernicus 0 Posted February 14, 2007 Share Posted February 14, 2007 As Villian certainly a check raise or value bet could've saved hero money, the problem being Villian could be doing this with air if he reads the turn bet as weak as it is. By betting scared based solely on the fact that a club came on the turn you are opening yourself up to be run over in the long term IMO. As for the betting/odds a huge object in poker is to get your opponents to make calls that aren't mathmatically sound thus juicing in the pot in your favour. As Copernicus stated we are giving Villian 2.5-1 on his money to call (meaning if villian feels he is 40% or so chance to win this hand(which any hand with 11 or 12 outs is) he makes the call. This is a draw heavy board and the last thing we want is to be giving draws the right price....we want them to make mistakes not the other way around. By raising the flop to 500 we are now giving Villian 1.8-1 meaning he has to be about 56% to win the hand for this to be a profitable call by him. If he is willing to call the bet here the pot gets bigger based on his error not ours. This is also where the turn bet becomes an even bigger error. Lets say for example Vilian is on a hand like Ac Qd where he flopped mid pair with the backdoor draw. Nowwith a hand like this yes he made a mistake calling the flop raise but now we are giving him 5.4-1 to call the turn meaning he needs to feel he is 18% to make the best hand on the river... hope this helps a bit.A bit of a math error here, otherwise right on. 2.5:1 doesnt mean he needs 40% chance to win, it means he needs 29% (1/3.5)=7 or 8 outer (assuming no betting on the turn or compensating implied odds).To give a shorter answer to the question this was answering, 500 isnt an overbet, its the minimum (round) bet that makes him think about folding and wrong to draw. Does it give him more license to steal with a scare card if he calls? Yes. But it also makes it much more likely that he really is on the draw and the "scare" card is the real deal. Link to post Share on other sites
cubbybri 0 Posted February 14, 2007 Share Posted February 14, 2007 A bit of a math error here, otherwise right on. 2.5:1 doesnt mean he needs 40% chance to win, it means he needs 29% (1/3.5)=7 or 8 outer (assuming no betting on the turn or compensating implied odds).To give a shorter answer to the question this was answering, 500 isnt an overbet, its the minimum (round) bet that makes him think about folding and wrong to draw. Does it give him more license to steal with a scare card if he calls? Yes. But it also makes it much more likely that he really is on the draw and the "scare" card is the real deal.thank you as always Copernicus. Guess this was my thinking. I must make my decisions a lot harder than I have to as I usually bet smaller amounts on draw heavy boards. For me, I feel I'm giving away my hand when I overbet the pot by a bunch as I usually tend to be a con't better of smaller amount on most hands so that I am not giving away much info whether I hit or not.Info is appreciated. Moral is, if I make big overbet and it's called, I'm more likely up against the draw or some really heavy goods. Link to post Share on other sites
copernicus 0 Posted February 14, 2007 Share Posted February 14, 2007 thank you as always Copernicus. Guess this was my thinking. I must make my decisions a lot harder than I have to as I usually bet smaller amounts on draw heavy boards. For me, I feel I'm giving away my hand when I overbet the pot by a bunch as I usually tend to be a con't better of smaller amount on most hands so that I am not giving away much info whether I hit or not.Info is appreciated. Moral is, if I make big overbet and it's called, I'm more likely up against the draw or some really heavy goods.When its a choice between trying to disguise your hand vs. making a call wrong if he saw your two cards, the latter is usually better. You can disguise your hand somewhat if you make the same bet with your own draws sometimes. Link to post Share on other sites
anyone1 0 Posted February 14, 2007 Share Posted February 14, 2007 When its a choice between trying to disguise your hand vs. making a call wrong if he saw your two cards, the latter is usually better. You can disguise your hand somewhat if you make the same bet with your own draws sometimes.what about the times that he has kj aq or ak (i understand that aq and ak are longshots) here... 500 blows him off the pot and loses value if he has one of these hands right? is there an amount that he can call with either a flush draw or some sort of tp or mp? Link to post Share on other sites
cubbybri 0 Posted February 14, 2007 Share Posted February 14, 2007 When its a choice between trying to disguise your hand vs. making a call wrong if he saw your two cards, the latter is usually better. You can disguise your hand somewhat if you make the same bet with your own draws sometimes.I guess it's looking at a different way for me to disguise my hands then. I'll have to try and start implementing this into my game. I really only play small limits ($5 ATM) and I have had success with almost always putting out the same size bets (1/2 pot head's up to just under the pot depending on how many players in pot).I find it harder to make CORRECT changes to my game when I am running well even though I know that making those changes will make me better but I'll do my best to start making their calls wrong rather than disguising and use some of my semi-bluffs at that same amount to disguise instead.Thank you. Link to post Share on other sites
copernicus 0 Posted February 14, 2007 Share Posted February 14, 2007 what about the times that he has kj aq or ak (i understand that aq and ak are longshots) here... 500 blows him off the pot and loses value if he has one of these hands right? is there an amount that he can call with either a flush draw or some sort of tp or mp?If I understand the question, no, there is no amount that both prices out the flush draw but doesnt risk chasing away top pair. Tue alternative line here, which may be right for this early in a tourney..though i think it would be better in a DS or SS stack tourney...is to play it small all on the flop, waiting till the turn to price out the flush draw, and being willing to fold to the scare card. Link to post Share on other sites
Zach6668 513 Posted February 14, 2007 Share Posted February 14, 2007 what about the times that he has kj aq or ak (i understand that aq and ak are longshots) here... 500 blows him off the pot and loses value if he has one of these hands right? is there an amount that he can call with either a flush draw or some sort of tp or mp?Honestly, in tournaments like this, and most forms of poker, people are just looking for an excuse to call, so if I bet big, I wouldn't be suprised if top pair did call. I wouldn't be too worried about blowing them out of the pot, as much as I would be concerned about protecting our hand from draws.- Zach Link to post Share on other sites
anyone1 0 Posted February 14, 2007 Share Posted February 14, 2007 Honestly, in tournaments like this, and most forms of poker, people are just looking for an excuse to call, so if I bet big, I wouldn't be suprised if top pair did call. I wouldn't be too worried about blowing them out of the pot, as much as I would be concerned about protecting our hand from draws.- Zachcould a case then be made for shoving? Link to post Share on other sites
Zach6668 513 Posted February 14, 2007 Share Posted February 14, 2007 could a case then be made for shoving?Shoving is probably a little much. I'm talking more like full pot bet or like 1.5 pot even. Shoving kinda gets us to the point where we only get called by hands that have us crushed (ie set, etc). Link to post Share on other sites
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