180 Man-your Thoughts

[irishguy 14]

Villain was just moved to the table. There are 45 people left avg stack is 5500ish. He is in 1st and I am in 3rd place. Blinds are 100/200 and I'm on the buttonStacksVILLIAN $16192HERO $14782*** HOLE CARDS ***Dealt to HERO [7d 7s] HERO: calls 200VILLIAN: raises 600 to 800HERO: calls 600*** FLOP *** [8s 5s 4c]VILLIAN: bets 1000HERO: calls 1000*** TURN *** [8s 5s 4c] [3h]VILLIAN: bets 2200HERO: ? I think calling his c-bet is standard but what are your thoughts on the turn? Pot is 5900 at this point. As stated he is new to the table and I'm unsure if he is the throw out another bullet kind of player. I think I'm getting some good value considering pots size etc my only fear being if I call and miss the river how much am I will to call off if he fires again? Call turn/miss river fold? or Call turn miss river call up to 3500ish? or fold turn?

[ChrisRichey 1]

I think the flop call is fine, but when he fires again on the turn I would fold. No need to risk 1/2 your stack at this point with second pair to the board and a gutshot.

[rog 0]

Turn is an easy fold IMO. Although I don't mind the flop call, I probably fold.

[anyone1 0]

rr to 1800 pf. sends him a message that you're not one to be f**ked with, better defines his hand, and wins you the pot when he checks almost every flop and you fire agains. (costs the same as your pf and flop call) I assume by open limping on button you want to flop a set against the two blinds and crack em. Fine, you didn't do that and a big stack is showing aggression the whole way... run for your life.As played, fold turn.

[anyone1 0]

rr to 1800 pf. sends him a message that you're not one to be f**ked with, better defines his hand, and wins you the pot when he checks almost every flop and you fire agains. (costs the same as your pf and flop call) I assume by open limping on button you want to flop a set against the two blinds and crack em. Fine, you didn't do that and a big stack is showing aggression the whole way... run for your life.As played, fold turn.

[BeaverStyle 1]

so it folds around to you on the button and you limp? I don't like this one bit... I'd pop it up to 600-800... put some pressure on those blinds. If he repops it from the SB I think we can fold it then. It's not that we're playing 7's on the button, but we're playing the range of the raise from the button. That flop isn't horrible for 77... but since he took the aggressor status in the hand, folding on the turn seems like the best play.

[irishguy 14]

so it folds around to you on the button and you limp? I don't like this one bit... I'd pop it up to 600-800... put some pressure on those blinds. If he repops it from the SB I think we can fold it then. It's not that we're playing 7's on the button, but we're playing the range of the raise from the button. That flop isn't horrible for 77... but since he took the aggressor status in the hand, folding on the turn seems like the best play.

Posting any hand I fully expect to here pre flop raise. I understand the concept but to me at times its pointless. Limping here IMO is virtually the same as a standard raise of 3-4bb. If the table allows I will limp from LP with a wide range of hands(or make a standard raise, it depends). His preflop raise oop really defines a speciific range of hands for him JJ+ or A10+ but at no point does he have a clue on my holdings. In this spot I could have 67 and crush him on the flop while he bleeds money guessing he's ahead. Thats just my style. Now as for raising 600-800 preflop, you say I should dump if he repops? Don't you think that a lot of unpaired hands AJ+ etc will repop to what can easily be seen as a position raise?

[ChrisRichey 1]

I didn't even notice the open limp from the button. I don't like that either. Make the standard raise to 600 and see what he does. The problem with calling a reraise is that you are going to hate just about every flop, unless you flop a set or the straight. Yes, he could have overcards and you're flipping, but are you really willing to push and risk a 3rd place stack at this point in the tournament on a coinflip?

[copernicus 0]

When you limp a mid-pocket pair you have relegated it to set or fold if you meet any resistance. Raise pre-flop with position and you will probably have a better read on villain. As played, fold on the flop.

[copernicus 0]

Posting any hand I fully expect to here pre flop raise. I understand the concept but to me at times its pointless. Limping here IMO is virtually the same as a standard raise of 3-4bb. If the table allows I will limp from LP with a wide range of hands(or make a standard raise, it depends). His preflop raise oop really defines a speciific range of hands for him JJ+ or A10+ but at no point does he have a clue on my holdings. In this spot I could have 67 and crush him on the flop while he bleeds money guessing he's ahead. Thats just my style. Now as for raising 600-800 preflop, you say I should dump if he repops? Don't you think that a lot of unpaired hands AJ+ etc will repop to what can easily be seen as a position raise?

You dont hear the "never limp" mantra from me, but this is still a situation where you don't limp! You are facing a covering stack in the blinds, and by relinquishing the lead on the hand to an OOP raiser you are putting yourself on the defensive the entire hand. Your attribution of JJ+ to AT+ is far too narrow, he can have a wide range of hands to raise here. What I think you are missing is that you get less information about his hand because your limp/call actually defines your hand for him much better than a raise. His knowledge of your hand allows him to play much more aggressively.As you point out, a raise from a steal position can be read as anything from garbage to very strong, and that uncertainty will slow down his aggression. But what hands would limp/call from the button? Small to Mid-pairs, weak aces and maybe unconnected broadways limp, mid-pairs call. Whatever uncertainty he may have still have about that (primarily a loose call with KJ, KT, QT) is offset by a flop that contains none of those cards. You're playing this hand with your cards exposed, except for the chance of 88, which is only 3 out of the 21 or 27 hands he is putting you on. Then you flat call the flop with a draw heavy board, risky to foolhardy for the set, further discounting any chance of that.Medium strength hands are precisely the wrong hands to limp with especially WITH position, if you intend to play them for value.

[irishguy 14]

You dont hear the "never limp" mantra from me, but this is still a situation where you don't limp! You are facing a covering stack in the blinds, and by relinquishing the lead on the hand to an OOP raiser you are putting yourself on the defensive the entire hand. Your attribution of JJ+ to AT+ is far too narrow, he can have a wide range of hands to raise here. What I think you are missing is that you get less information about his hand because your limp/call actually defines your hand for him much better than a raise. His knowledge of your hand allows him to play much more aggressively.As you point out, a raise from a steal position can be read as anything from garbage to very strong, and that uncertainty will slow down his aggression. But what hands would limp/call from the button? Small to Mid-pairs, weak aces and maybe unconnected broadways limp, mid-pairs call. Whatever uncertainty he may have still have about that (primarily a loose call with KJ, KT, QT) is offset by a flop that contains none of those cards. You're playing this hand with your cards exposed, except for the chance of 88, which is only 3 out of the 21 or 27 hands he is putting you on. Then you flat call the flop with a draw heavy board, risky to foolhardy for the set, further discounting any chance of that.Medium strength hands are precisely the wrong hands to limp with especially WITH position, if you intend to play them for value.

You make a lot solid points. The limp from the button is very table dependant to me, if people will more liberally defend there blinds against standard raises I often limp as oppossed to bloating the pot with no real idea of there hand ranges. Understanding your point about my limp defining my hand more than a raise would I tend to disagree a little. While yes he can assume as you've stated that I limp call here with small pairs, suited aces, small/mid connectors etc. That is a mighty large range for him to put me on. And truth be told a flop like this would hit the hell out of a lot of hands I'd play in a similar manner. I assign the range for him as JJ+AT+ simply because these are the types of hands that I often see raise oop when limped to(agreed this could be a mistake on my part). Now as for calling the c-bet, this is pretty standard to me. The c-bet is completely over used and I think if I'm going to auto assume that I'm behind on a board like this based on a raise and c-bet I will likely get run over in the long run. Now we get to the turn bet and based on his preflp aggression, his c-bet and his 2nd bullet I think its safe to assume that I'm behind in the hand. I'm certain, he's on an over pair. While I'm not getting anywhere near the right pot odds to make this call can we make this based on implied odds? My thought here is this if based on the information that I've gathered is it an absolutely horrid move to call 17% more of my stack knowing that the 14% of the time I catch the river I will double up? Keeping in mind that if I miss the river I don't put another cent into it I am still top ten or so in the tourney with an M of about 36. But as stated the 14% that I catch here I double through and am now sitting way out in front? Thoughts? or is this to much thinking?

[copernicus 0]

I dont like a call on the turn because you cant be sure you stack him with a 7. Its either a very scary card for him with that board, and sometimes it completes a spade flush or maybe even a straight for him. Youve got a solid stack, why risk it with FPS?