**official Mma Thread**

[coesillian 0]

I think GSP probably would have won this fight regardless with his gameplan that he was using, but I also don't think we should dismiss that he may have cheated. The breathing thing he does could be something he actually believes helps him, but it would be pretty convenient to cheat and add vaseline while they're doing it. They would have the built-in excuse as to why they were doing it if they were ever caught like in this situation. BJ is also not the first to complain about it. Sherk has made complaints, Hughes has done the same, Mayhem as well.

I don't know if you read GSP's response in the link I posted, but the guy who introduced the breathing technique to GSP has a letter to the commission. He says he noticed that GSP wasn't breathing properly during his fight with Jon Fitch and intervied and taught him the breathing technique for his figth against BJ. it's from the "witchdoctor" and is on page 10. http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/sports_blo...ac_response.pdfDo you think GSP used him as a means to cheat? If he was greasing in other fights as well why would he change his technique? I really don't think he intentionally tried to put vaseline on his back, also any vaseline that was there did significantly alter the outcome of the game. Had he been dry as my grandma's pounanee he would have still whooped his as and passed his guard. Their 1st fight was 3 years ago, GSP has evolved alot since then.

[steve7stud 0]

This really sucks. Because when they fight again, GSP will be a HUGE favorite. Sigh.

[grocery_mony 8]

This really sucks. Because when they fight again, GSP will be a HUGE favorite. Sigh.

Did you see anything that would make you bet on BJ?

[gooch 0]

Also, if you watch the first fight, GSP was able to do nothing in BJ's guard. BJ controlled his head and GSP wasn't able to posture up like he did the 2nd fight. Yeah, it was a couple of years ago, but I find it a bit hard to believe that somebody could evolve that quickly on the ground.

gsp may be the strongest wrestler in mma right now, bj couldn't control him because he wasn't strong enough, teh high quard may have added an element of danger to bj's game, but it wasn't going to keep gsp from raining elbows

[jayboogie 0]

I don't know if you read GSP's response in the link I posted, but the guy who introduced the breathing technique to GSP has a letter to the commission. He says he noticed that GSP wasn't breathing properly during his fight with Jon Fitch and intervied and taught him the breathing technique for his figth against BJ. it's from the "witchdoctor" and is on page 10. http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/sports_blo...ac_response.pdfDo you think GSP used him as a means to cheat? If he was greasing in other fights as well why would he change his technique? I really don't think he intentionally tried to put vaseline on his back, also any vaseline that was there did significantly alter the outcome of the game. Had he been dry as my grandma's pounanee he would have still whooped his as and passed his guard. Their 1st fight was 3 years ago, GSP has evolved alot since then.

Whether it affected the outcome of the fight is irrelevant. Fact of the matter is his corner got caught putting vaseline on him. It taints his win in my opinion. If you listen to some of his strategy for the fight, you'll hear him talking about trying to gas out BJ's arms by clinching with him, so his hand speed isn't as quick. If he uses strategy like that, I would think he would have a sophisticated way of cheating as well if he were to do it. Who knows if he has used other greasing methods in the past. Some fighters have been known to bathe in baby oil before the fight, so they become very slick once they start sweating. I don't get why you would say he would have still destroyed him with or without vaseline. It makes a difference in there, even a small little bit makes a difference. It's also not easy to get off and certainly can't be wiped off with just a towel.

[jayboogie 0]

gsp may be the strongest wrestler in mma right now, bj couldn't control him because he wasn't strong enough, teh high quard may have added an element of danger to bj's game, but it wasn't going to keep gsp from raining elbows

Yeah, he is a very good wrestler, but BJ has one of the best guards in MMA. He should have been able to at least neutralize some of what GSP was doing. Instead, he couldn't do anything. GSP was doing the most basic passes, posturing up and raining down shots whenever he wanted. Sure, maybe he is just that dominant, but to think grease couldn't have played a factor is just not being rational.

[coesillian 0]

His win is tainted, but I don't think his character should be tainted. I believe it is possible it was completely unintentional for the corner to touch him with slightly greasy hands, and it's more likely that he didn't have any intentions of cheating.I re-watched the first fight and BJ was able to control GSP's head when he was in BJ's guard. In the 2nd fight GSP used his arms to posture up and not let BJ control his head. I think it was his plan to not allow him to get that control, I don't think it was his plan to use vaseline to help him.Regarding the passes, I don't know enough about BJJ to able to tell if they were basic or not, but somewhere in the letter they claim that the passes he used against BJ were advanced techniques. Fighters end up greasy in later rounds of fights yet nobody was ever able to pass BJ's guard like GSP did. I think GSP deserves more credit for his BJJ that you are giving him.

[CodyHartman 0]

Jor Rogan even commented on the fact they are sweating more and more as the fight progresses. This also makes it easier for GSP to pass BJ's in general regardless of any vaseline factor that didnt occur.Like I said before if you watch the fight in between rounds the athletic commission was wiping down GSP in between rounds.

[jdrury12 0]

Jor Rogan even commented on the fact they are sweating more and more as the fight progresses. This also makes it easier for GSP to pass BJ's in general regardless of any vaseline factor that didnt occur.Like I said before if you watch the fight in between rounds the athletic commission was wiping down GSP in between rounds.

Didn't that only happen after round three when they saw him do it every break? And Vaseline mixed with sweat is 1) hard to get off 2) insanely slippery

[jayboogie 0]

His win is tainted, but I don't think his character should be tainted. I believe it is possible it was completely unintentional for the corner to touch him with slightly greasy hands, and it's more likely that he didn't have any intentions of cheating.I re-watched the first fight and BJ was able to control GSP's head when he was in BJ's guard. In the 2nd fight GSP used his arms to posture up and not let BJ control his head. I think it was his plan to not allow him to get that control, I don't think it was his plan to use vaseline to help him.Regarding the passes, I don't know enough about BJJ to able to tell if they were basic or not, but somewhere in the letter they claim that the passes he used against BJ were advanced techniques. Fighters end up greasy in later rounds of fights yet nobody was ever able to pass BJ's guard like GSP did. I think GSP deserves more credit for his BJJ that you are giving him.

I'm not saying he's not a legit black belt, but he just got his black belt recently a few months ago. You compare that to someone like BJ who's had his for almost 10 years and was a World Champion in BJJ and it should be no contest who the better grappler is. That's pretty much my point that BJ shut down GSP's entire game the first fight and could do nothing the second fight. Maybe he really is that good now and proper credit would have been given if he were not caught red handed with the vaseline.They were the same basic passes he was using against Matt Serra as well. GSP is actually kind of one dimensional with what he does. He has a great single leg takedown and uses that Sao Paolo passing to the right side.

[jayboogie 0]

Didn't that only happen after round three when they saw him do it every break? And Vaseline mixed with sweat is 1) hard to get off 2) insanely slippery

Yup, they saw it happen after the third round. BJ looked like he was done after the 2nd Round, so even if it was somehow wiped off, the fight was basically done after the 2nd Round. BJ himself said he was borderline knocked out and didn't know what was going on. He was just fighting off of instincts. It will be interesting to see what the video reveals during the breaks between the first 2 rounds. If he was wiping him with vaseline in those rounds as well, while doing that breathing technique, I would think that's blatant cheating. More than likely, not much comes of this. Probably a couple suspensions to his corner is about it, unless they really find something with definitive proof that GSP was cheating.

[gatortom64 1]

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"But when it was over, both guys saw things very differently. Lesnar blamed his loss on inexperience and being too aggressive, while Mir saw his win as a triumph of his technique, something he says will happen every time they fight. On May 23rd, each fighter has his chance to prove his point, and while a lot has happened for these two since that first fight, I know the rematch is going to be just as intense as the first one, especially considering that the winner walks away as the UFC Heavyweight Champion." Tickets for UFC 98: LESNAR VS. MIR 2 priced at $800, $600, $400, $250, $125 and $75, not including applicable service charges, go on sale Saturday, March 7 at 10 a.m. at all Las Vegas Ticketmaster locations (select Smith's Food and Drug Centers and Ritmo Latino). Ticket sales are limited to eight (per person. To charge by phone with a major credit card, call Ticketmaster at (800) 745-3000. Tickets also are available for purchase at www.ufc.com, www.mgmgrand.com or www.ticketmaster.com. UFC® Fight Club™ members will have the opportunity to purchase tickets to this event Thursday, March 5 at 10 a.m. PT via the website ufc.com. A special Internet ticket pre-sale will be available to UFC newsletter subscribers Friday, March 6 starting at 10 a.m. PT. To access this presale, users must register for the UFC newsletter through ufc.com. UFC 98: LESNAR vs. MIR 2 will be available live on pay-per-view on iN DEMAND, DIRECTV, DISH Network, TVN, Bell ExpressVu, Shaw Communications and Viewer's Choice Canada for a suggested retail price of $44.95 for standard definition or high-definition broadcasts (where available). A gifted athlete with the size, speed, and power to impose his will on any opponent, 6-3 ½, 265 pound Brock Lesnar (3-1) made an immediate impact in the UFC when he debuted in February of 2008. 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[gatortom64 1]

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[coesillian 0]

Yup, they saw it happen after the third round. BJ looked like he was done after the 2nd Round, so even if it was somehow wiped off, the fight was basically done after the 2nd Round. BJ himself said he was borderline knocked out and didn't know what was going on. He was just fighting off of instincts. It will be interesting to see what the video reveals during the breaks between the first 2 rounds. If he was wiping him with vaseline in those rounds as well, while doing that breathing technique, I would think that's blatant cheating. More than likely, not much comes of this. Probably a couple suspensions to his corner is about it, unless they really find something with definitive proof that GSP was cheating.

here is BJ version of things, video style: http://mmamania.com/2009/02/19/ufc-94-grea...s-on-bjpenncom/

[jayboogie 0]

here is BJ version of things, video style: http://mmamania.com/2009/02/19/ufc-94-grea...s-on-bjpenncom/

I'm not sure how accurate the timeline for everything is as far as what happened in between rounds. I'm sure they have an actual video of everything that was going on in the corner to get a better idea of everything. Pretty sure that is what the NSAC will be reviewing. Other fighters have accused GSP of being greasy. Some Fighters and trainers have complained about some of Greg Jackson's guys being greasy. Is it a coincidence? I personally don't think so. Where there's smoke there's fire.

[steve7stud 0]

This whole thing is becoming a bit silly if you ask me.I have no clue how much grease was on GSP during the fight. I've watched the ppv as well as tons of clips. I couldn't feel his back, sorry.But BJ has lost twice now. I honestly believe that GSP is the superior MMA fighter. BJ is letting his pride get the best of him imo. Lots of rational arguments have been made from both sides. At the end of the day, I can't see GSP losing the fight.

[jdrury12 0]

This whole thing is becoming a bit silly if you ask me.I have no clue how much grease was on GSP during the fight. I've watched the ppv as well as tons of clips. I couldn't feel his back, sorry.But BJ has lost twice now. I honestly believe that GSP is the superior MMA fighter. BJ is letting his pride get the best of him imo. Lots of rational arguments have been made from both sides. At the end of the day, I can't see GSP losing the fight.

I wish I could say the same, but I don't know. Maybe the grease did have something to do with it, that's the problem, we don't know. I still think the right action is not let that guy corner for 1-2 years and don't let anyone but a cutman touch a fighter.

[gooch 0]

I'm not saying he's not a legit black belt, but he just got his black belt recently a few months ago. You compare that to someone like BJ who's had his for almost 10 years and was a World Champion in BJJ and it should be no contest who the better grappler is. That's pretty much my point that BJ shut down GSP's entire game the first fight and could do nothing the second fight. Maybe he really is that good now and proper credit would have been given if he were not caught red handed with the vaseline.They were the same basic passes he was using against Matt Serra as well. GSP is actually kind of one dimensional with what he does. He has a great single leg takedown and uses that Sao Paolo passing to the right side.

couple of things-bjj and mma are not the same as far as grappling goes, there is so much more that the gi gives that is taken away in a grappling enviornment, especially against a much stronger opponent-gsp game plan over the past few fights, and you could see it against bj was to fight a safe game, no need to go crazy, just get in a good position and gnp like couture used to do from half guard-the passes got easier because they started sweating and bj kept getting tired-i really don't think that bj would have been able to hold gsp with crackhead control for too long anyways, he is just too strong

[jdrury12 0]

couple of things-bjj and mma are not the same as far as grappling goes, there is so much more that the gi gives that is taken away in a grappling enviornment, especially against a much stronger opponent-gsp game plan over the past few fights, and you could see it against bj was to fight a safe game, no need to go crazy, just get in a good position and gnp like couture used to do from half guard-the passes got easier because they started sweating and bj kept getting tired-i really don't think that bj would have been able to hold gsp with crackhead control for too long anyways, he is just too strong

All valid points. But the 'I don't think' is still there, isn't it? That's the problem.

[gooch 0]

All valid points. But the 'I don't think' is still there, isn't it? That's the problem.

bj's realy gift in bjj is his flexibility, not his strength, against a no-gi opponent he doesn't have the strength to deal with someone who can recognize the dangers and play "small ball" mma so to speak, gsp chipped away at bj and while he could have tried for better positions he knew that opened up risks that he didn't need to taketake an equally as talented, but stronger bjj player like marcelo who excels on both gi and no gi, technical with a grip like a boain a five round fight, which i'm sure that gsp was prepared for, bj gets weaker and more beat up by the round and the chance of bj catching gsp in a sub gets less and lessbj is 100 x better than i ever will be, but his gift has limits unless he works hard enough, which i don't think he does to take gsp at welterweight

[jayboogie 0]

couple of things-bjj and mma are not the same as far as grappling goes, there is so much more that the gi gives that is taken away in a grappling enviornment, especially against a much stronger opponent-gsp game plan over the past few fights, and you could see it against bj was to fight a safe game, no need to go crazy, just get in a good position and gnp like couture used to do from half guard-the passes got easier because they started sweating and bj kept getting tired-i really don't think that bj would have been able to hold gsp with crackhead control for too long anyways, he is just too strong

BJ got his guard passed 30 seconds after getting taken down in the 2nd Round. I highly doubt he was tired at that point, at least he didn't look it. Is GSP really that much stronger than Matt Hughes? I don't know about that, but BJ controlled Hughes in his guard before hurting his rib. BJ has great technique to go along with his flexibility. Everything he does on the ground is very fundamentally sound, he doesn't do anything flashy. Really though, GSP did most of his damage inside BJ's guard rather than the better positions. He couldn't get much leverage on his shots in side control or half guard, but he was raining down blows while he was in BJ's open guard. I know what you're saying in GSP's approach on the ground and that is why I think he likely wins the fight anyways, but the vaseline being thrown in the equation creates a what if scenario to this fight.

[gooch 0]

BJ got his guard passed 30 seconds after getting taken down in the 2nd Round. I highly doubt he was tired at that point, at least he didn't look it. Is GSP really that much stronger than Matt Hughes? I don't know about that, but BJ controlled Hughes in his guard before hurting his rib. BJ has great technique to go along with his flexibility. Everything he does on the ground is very fundamentally sound, he doesn't do anything flashy. Really though, GSP did most of his damage inside BJ's guard rather than the better positions. He couldn't get much leverage on his shots in side control or half guard, but he was raining down blows while he was in BJ's open guard. I know what you're saying in GSP's approach on the ground and that is why I think he likely wins the fight anyways, but the vaseline being thrown in the equation creates a what if scenario to this fight.

if you look at gsp's guard pass over the past few fights you would see how strong he is, yes, he is much stronger than hughes in that respect, look at how he manhandled them in their fightgsp by posturing up, having a very strong base and being able to open the guard with a hand push and then swing the leg up high and over is very hard to deal with, i can't see gsp sitting in a high guard or crackhead against bj, he just won't let the position happen and bj isn't strong enough to hold him in it, maybe if bj played rubber guard, but still i think gasp is strong enough to just pick bj up in that position and break it, he is very hard to get head control on now

[jayboogie 0]

if you look at gsp's guard pass over the past few fights you would see how strong he is, yes, he is much stronger than hughes in that respect, look at how he manhandled them in their fightgsp by posturing up, having a very strong base and being able to open the guard with a hand push and then swing the leg up high and over is very hard to deal with, i can't see gsp sitting in a high guard or crackhead against bj, he just won't let the position happen and bj isn't strong enough to hold him in it, maybe if bj played rubber guard, but still i think gasp is strong enough to just pick bj up in that position and break it, he is very hard to get head control on now

If he really is that strong and that good technically, he's basically an unbeatable fighter. If someone like BJ can't control him in his guard, what chance does anyone else have? Like I said before, maybe he is just that good and I would have given him that praise if he had not gotten caught with the vaseline. But, the fact of the matter is it's not the first time that he's been accused of it. It's not the first time his camp has been accused of it and BJ's corner warned the commission about it before hand. Dana himself has said he thinks his corner did it on purpose, why would Dana say that if he didn't believe it to be true?

[steve7stud 0]

If he really is that strong and that good technically, he's basically an unbeatable fighter. If someone like BJ can't control him in his guard, what chance does anyone else have? Like I said before, maybe he is just that good and I would have given him that praise if he had not gotten caught with the vaseline. But, the fact of the matter is it's not the first time that he's been accused of it. It's not the first time his camp has been accused of it and BJ's corner warned the commission about it before hand. Dana himself has said he thinks his corner did it on purpose, why would Dana say that if he didn't believe it to be true?

Well in all fairness.........he can have the best bjj defense in the world, and he won't be an unbeatable fighter. If his chin is suspect, which I think it is, that presents another problem. However, because his wrestling is the best in MMA right now........if he did have the best bjj defense as well as the best top game, he would be "almost" impossible to beat.

[Ron_Mexico 4,219]

So, I can see you guys are really fired up about the Faber/Brown rematch and thoroughly enjoyed the WEC card on Sunday and really think that Aldo is a big time up and comer? Yeah, me too.