"playing The Player" In Cash Games

[CBFalcon 0]

Lets just say you play a 10 hour session and it's a NLH cash game.I know everyone says you have to "play the player, not the cards" etc...But really, how many "moves" do you make in a given 10 hour session?And do you simply define "moves" as "bluffs"? If not, what else do you consider a "move"?

[MyPlayIsRAB 0]

only moves i generally make are check, raise, bet, or foldbut in all honesty, its hard to say. each situation is different. i try not to bluff too much at low limits, and you generally shouldnt be making too many moves. the more you make, the higher your chances of getting called

[silkyjonson 1]

Lets just say you play a 10 hour session and it's a NLH cash game.I know everyone says you have to "play the player, not the cards" etc...But really, how many "moves" do you make in a given 10 hour session?And do you simply define "moves" as "bluffs"? If not, what else do you consider a "move"?

If you play low limit NLH with non-deep stacks, your moves should be kept to a minimum and you can be very profitable with basically straightforward poker, as you move up in limits you have to diversify your play and start making more moves IMO.

[Socrates 0]

If its anything less than 10/20NL you can generally just sit back and only play good cards and you'll do much better than making moves. Low limit poker, especially NL cash, is a very easy game to make money at. ABC poker will usually let you dominate the table.

[CrazyJoe 0]

waaaaaaaaayy too many in my home games, certain people are really starting to catch on to me, i think it's time to change gears.

[nutzbuster 7]

If its anything less than 10/20NL you can generally just sit back and only play good cards and you'll do much better than making moves. Low limit poker, especially NL cash, is a very easy game to make money at. ABC poker will usually let you dominate the table.

QFT

[CBFalcon 0]

You guys seem to be saying what I've always felt.I may play all night and only make 3 or 4 fancy plays..but 99% of the time, just the ABC's.

[JoblessBast 0]

You guys seem to be saying what I've always felt.I may play all night and only make 3 or 4 fancy plays..but 99% of the time, just the ABC's.

Are you finding it to be profitable playing this way? What limits do you play?

[navybuttons 15]

You guys seem to be saying what I've always felt.I may play all night and only make 3 or 4 fancy plays..but 99% of the time, just the ABC's.

playing the player is not limited to solely bluffs. it also mean figuring out when your middle pair is good and when your top two is not. it means figuring out his hand, figuring out if he'll lay it down if you bluff (can he piece together that your bluff doesn't make sense?), or how big of a bet he'll call if you can beat him. it means inducing bluffs when you know he can't call a value bet. etc. etc. etc.bluffs are probably 8% or less of the play at low limits. what i described is the real moves you put on people.

[Dice_3008 1]

playing the player is not limited to solely bluffs. it also mean figuring out when your middle pair is good and when your top two is not. it means figuring out his hand, figuring out if he'll lay it down if you bluff (can he piece together that your bluff doesn't make sense?), or how big of a bet he'll call if you can beat him. it means inducing bluffs when you know he can't call a value bet. etc. etc. etc.bluffs are probably 8% or less of the play at low limits. what i described is the real moves you put on people.

Well put Navy. I couldn't have said it better myself.

[Flushgarden 0]

Ok you guys that say dont many moves in low limit cash games...what about the standard continuation bet...is that a "move"? Say you open-raise A-Q in middle position 3x the BB. The button calls and the blinds fold. The flop is rags, you cbet 60% of the pot and the button calls. The turn misses you again...no apparent straight or flush on the board...do you fire again or check? If you check its basically telling the guy I give up, you bet and you take it.Also what if there is two to a straight or two to a flush on the flop and you suspect he might be drawing when he calls. Even if the flop missed you you might still have the best hand. You c-bet the flop and he calls, turn misses if he was on a draw...how do you procede there?I'm asking because my strategy has been to pound at pots relentlessly until they fold...but they dont always fold and sometimes I end up donking off a lot more money than needed.

[Spence 0]

Ok you guys that say dont many moves in low limit cash games...what about the standard continuation bet...is that a move? Say you open-raise A-Q in middle position 3x the BB. The button calls and the blinds fold. The flop is rags, you cbet 60% of the pot and the button calls. The turn misses you again...no apparent straight or flush on the board...do you fire again or check? If you check its basically telling the guy I give up, you bet and you take it.Also what if there is two to a straight or two to a flush on the flop and you suspect he might be drawing when he calls. Even if the flop missed you you might still have the best hand. You c-bet the flop and he calls, turn misses if he was on a draw...how do you procede there?I'm asking because my strategy has been to pound at pots relentlessly until they fold...but they dont always fold and sometimes I end up donking off a lot more money than needed.

Sorry, I was looking at your avatar, did you say something?

[Dice_3008 1]

Ok you guys that say dont many moves in low limit cash games...what about the standard continuation bet...is that a "move"? Say you open-raise A-Q in middle position 3x the BB. The button calls and the blinds fold. The flop is rags, you cbet 60% of the pot and the button calls. The turn misses you again...no apparent straight or flush on the board...do you fire again or check? If you check its basically telling the guy I give up, you bet and you take it.Also what if there is two to a straight or two to a flush on the flop and you suspect he might be drawing when he calls. Even if the flop missed you you might still have the best hand. You c-bet the flop and he calls, turn misses if he was on a draw...how do you procede there?I'm asking because my strategy has been to pound at pots relentlessly until they fold...but they dont always fold and sometimes I end up donking off a lot more money than needed.

If you're playing low limit cash games how can you bet 3x the BB and continue with 60% on the flop? It's limit.

[MyPlayIsRAB 0]

If you're playing low limit cash games how can you bet 3x the BB and continue with 60% on the flop? It's limit.

lol he means low level play. like .5/1$nl and lower, where the betting limits are lower. small limit games are called low level limit games i believe

[Socrates 0]

lol he means low level play. like .5/1$nl and lower, where the betting limits are lower. small limit games are called low level limit games i believe

He's also talking about 2/5NL as well. As I mentioned, anything less than 10/20NL will cost you money if you're going to push at pots and makes moves all day. Unless the table is extrememly weak and scared money, which in a casino is unlikely - may be weak, but they don't care about the money. In regards to CB's on missed flops oop with one other player, I 'll usually make a couple of cb's to see where that takes me, if I get called by the position player, I'll just start checking flops like that. Everytime you let him take one of those small pots make its more likely he will call your big hands when you hit and even try to continue to take it away from you if you check. Once you get those people betting for you the game becomes very simple.

[CBFalcon 0]

playing the player is not limited to solely bluffs. it also mean figuring out when your middle pair is good and when your top two is not. it means figuring out his hand, figuring out if he'll lay it down if you bluff (can he piece together that your bluff doesn't make sense?), or how big of a bet he'll call if you can beat him. it means inducing bluffs when you know he can't call a value bet. etc. etc. etc.bluffs are probably 8% or less of the play at low limits. what i described is the real moves you put on people.

I guess if I re-asked the question, I'd say the most profitable way to play at the limits I play (1/2 NL, 2/5 NL) seems to be to figure out what the guy I am against has, then play the cards 95% of the time. Maybe once every few hours I'll see the opportunity to push a guy off something, but that's it.There seems to be very little advantage at trying to push someone off something at the limits I play. I tend to get into the most trouble when I start thinking "He'll fold 2nd pair to this reraise".What I am questioning is am I playing optimally or are there more moves to be made? I know it's hard to answer without being at the table and seeing the action, but this is an "in general" question.

[Naked_Cowboy 0]

one hundred and twelve.

[BudBundy 0]

one hundred and twelve.

That's a ridiculous number of moves!******Seriously tho i agree with everything said above. I want to add that Position is everything tho. Calling in position can be a very powerful move, Your hands mostly get paid off , you can put your opponents on hands easier , you can take a lot of orphan pots , you can get away from big hands more easily otherwise you'd overplay them OOP.I say taking advantage of position is more important than making fancy moves in low limit poker.

[mtdesmoines 3]

Lets just say you play a 10 hour session and it's a NLH cash game.I know everyone says you have to "play the player, not the cards" etc...But really, how many "moves" do you make in a given 10 hour session?And do you simply define "moves" as "bluffs"? If not, what else do you consider a "move"?

I like to refer to low limit poker as 'showdown poker' -- because, although you may occasionally be able to spot "the folder" at the table and abuse him, you're generally going to need to have the best hand to win because no matter what your "move" is, chances are about 80% that you are going to have to go all the way to show down with your hand.

[No_Neck 0]

one or two, and I tend to show them. Last night I bluffed TimWakefield out of a decent sized pot when I check raised him allin on a suited flop. The key here was that we had a lot of money behind and I knew he couldn't call without a huge hand. He folded and I showed. Helps get paid off when I do flop the mini flush.I think that was the only bluff in 8-10 hours though....

[goose 0]

Lets just say you play a 10 hour session and it's a NLH cash game.I know everyone says you have to "play the player, not the cards" etc...But really, how many "moves" do you make in a given 10 hour session?And do you simply define "moves" as "bluffs"? If not, what else do you consider a "move"?

Good question, although there's no concrete answer for it. It completely depends on the complexion, and to some degree, the stakes you're playing at. Couple things to note (and all of this refers to live play):1) If you get the reputation of someone who 'makes moves' you're going to get tons of action when you bet/raise, so stop making them.2) Continuation bets aren't a 'move', they're a standard play. You can continuation bet everytime, but it doesn't mean people are going to think you're loose/crazy, unless you start re-raising the flop with air.I think the best opportunity to make 'moves' is at a table where you have a nice mix of donkeys and regs (or otherwise decent players). Usually I'll make moves:1) When it's 3way between me, a donkey and a reg. If the reg bets and is called by the donk, or donk bets reg calls, if I think I'm ahead of the donkey I'll often try to isolate with marginal/medium hands. For example, 2/5NL donk raises utg to 25, reg calls, I call. Flop comes rags, I catch one, donkey leads, reg calls, I come over the top hard figuring the reg will lay down what could be ak or 1010 etc. to isolate the donkey who I'm pretty sure is sitting there with overs or some sort of idiot draw.2) I don't try and make moves on donkeys heads up unless they're weak/tight and will fold anything but close to the nuts, and then I punish them everytime I make a pair or marginal draw.3) Anytime the pot is big and you're in with a guy who's capable of making big laydowns (i.e. "I know I should call this, but I'm going to lay it down" as he shows two pairs and mucks). I.e. $600 pot after a QJ6 flop, turn comes an ace, you're pretty sure he's on two pair or maybe KK, and you've got $350 left holding J10 and you push.there are obviously more spots but these are some of the more common...