SilentButDeadly3 0 Posted January 30, 2007 Share Posted January 30, 2007 Day 2 of the WPO - "John Gale moves all in for his last $2,075. Andrew Black, a player at seat 8, and Jim Hanna all call. A player at seat 3 then pushes all in, and the three callers fold. Gale turns over the AheartQheart, and seat 3 shows the Kdiamond9diamond. The board brings the 6spade6club6diamondJheart4club and Gale rakes the pot.Gale now has over $12,000."-Gale now has over 4.5 million and is 2nd in chips at the Final Table. Link to post Share on other sites
IQCrash 1 Posted January 30, 2007 Share Posted January 30, 2007 He had a decent hand against a desperate short stack with a lot of dead money in the pot.He made the right push. Think again. Link to post Share on other sites
PMJackson21 0 Posted January 30, 2007 Share Posted January 30, 2007 He had a premium hand with a lot of dead money in the pot.He made the right push. Think again.Heh although I personally don't consider K9 sooooted a premium hand, I can understand why some may...It's so pretty, all matching and stuff. I do agree with you regarding the dead money in the pot though. The player that isolated (and whom I wouldn't be surprised is an online player), knew that Gale was desperate and didn't need a huge hand to put the remainder of his chips in. Once the 3 players flat call, the iso-raiser can assume none of the 3 have a strong enough hand to call the all-in, and will be getting great odds against the short stack. (I personally would only be worried about the first flat caller, and that would depend on the size of the blinds.)We also don't know the size of the stacks of the other players involved. If the iso-raiser could increase his stack a good deal by making this play, I like it even more. Link to post Share on other sites
chrozzo 19 Posted January 30, 2007 Share Posted January 30, 2007 Heh although I personally don't consider K9 sooooted a premium hand, I can understand why some may...It's so pretty, all matching and stuff. I do agree with you regarding the dead money in the pot though. The player that isolated (and whom I wouldn't be surprised is an online player), knew that Gale was desperate and didn't need a huge hand to put the remainder of his chips in. Once the 3 players flat call, the iso-raiser can assume none of the 3 have a strong enough hand to call the all-in, and will be getting great odds against the short stack. (I personally would only be worried about the first flat caller, and that would depend on the size of the blinds.)We also don't know the size of the stacks of the other players involved. If the iso-raiser could increase his stack a good deal by making this play, I like it even more.mmmmm.....diamondsssss Link to post Share on other sites
IQCrash 1 Posted January 30, 2007 Share Posted January 30, 2007 Heh although I personally don't consider K9 sooooted a premium hand, I can understand why some may...It's so pretty, all matching and stuff. I do agree with you regarding the dead money in the pot though. The player that isolated (and whom I wouldn't be surprised is an online player), knew that Gale was desperate and didn't need a huge hand to put the remainder of his chips in. Once the 3 players flat call, the iso-raiser can assume none of the 3 have a strong enough hand to call the all-in, and will be getting great odds against the short stack. (I personally would only be worried about the first flat caller, and that would depend on the size of the blinds.)We also don't know the size of the stacks of the other players involved. If the iso-raiser could increase his stack a good deal by making this play, I like it even more.I edited my post (before your reply) to better reflect what I was thinking. Initially I read it as the AhQh isolating, but then realized the Kd9d had - but I still maintained it was a good push.I assumed stacks and blinds were relative to what one would equate to a desperation shove in relation to the blinds, and that the isolater had just enough FE to push the others out and have a shot at a 30%+ increase to his stack. In other words, I just assumed standard play.The initial smooth caller might have a monster, but with two additional limpers behind I think it's easy to assume that they have nothing. He ended up getting 5/6 to 1 on his isolation and got his money in great against the range Gale could have. Link to post Share on other sites
PMJackson21 0 Posted January 31, 2007 Share Posted January 31, 2007 I edited my post (before your reply) to better reflect what I was thinking. Initially I read it as the AhQh isolating, but then realized the Kd9d had - but I still maintained it was a good push.I assumed stacks and blinds were relative to what one would equate to a desperation shove in relation to the blinds, and that the isolater had just enough FE to push the others out and have a shot at a 30%+ increase to his stack. In other words, I just assumed standard play.The initial smooth caller might have a monster, but with two additional limpers behind I think it's easy to assume that they have nothing. He ended up getting 5/6 to 1 on his isolation and got his money in great against the range Gale could have.Ya, I knew you had just mis-read it, I was just being a prick. Agree with everything else you said. I assume 200-400 to 300/600 blinds level range based on Gale's stack, and people flat calling the 2k all-in. If it was 200/400 (or less) I'd be more worried about Black flat calling with a monster, but 2k is close to a standard raise at the 300/600 level, which seems more likely since two others flat called.Also, to address the OP's point that you should check it down to eliminate a good player: That is just bad tournament poker at _that_ juncture of the tournament. At the final table you have a valid point, but in the early to mid stages of a MTT, all you should be concerned with is two things: A. building your stack and B. protecting the chips you already have. Whether or not a solid player gains chips from your play shouldn't even come into the equation; all you should be concerned with is whether or not your play is correct given the information available. Link to post Share on other sites
mtdesmoines 3 Posted January 31, 2007 Share Posted January 31, 2007 Day 2 of the WPO - "John Gale moves all in for his last $2,075. Andrew Black, a player at seat 8, and Jim Hanna all call. A player at seat 3 then pushes all in, and the three callers fold. Gale turns over the AheartQheart, and seat 3 shows the Kdiamond9diamond. The board brings the 6spade6club6diamondJheart4club and Gale rakes the pot.Gale now has over $12,000."-Gale now has over 4.5 million and is 2nd in chips at the Final Table.I don't mind the play at all, but Kd9d is such a dog to do it with. (get it?) Link to post Share on other sites
ChuckSty 0 Posted January 31, 2007 Share Posted January 31, 2007 I don't mind the play at all, but Kd9d is such a dog to do it with. (get it?)lol what a corny joke. i like the play though. and the joke despite it being complely asinine. Link to post Share on other sites
GWCGWC 83 Posted January 31, 2007 Share Posted January 31, 2007 lol what a corny joke. i like the play though. and the joke despite it being complely asinine.update your blog k?thanks Link to post Share on other sites
SilentButDeadly3 0 Posted January 31, 2007 Author Share Posted January 31, 2007 Could be because one of my friends was one of those who flat called and he had a pp therefore I'm biased. But with a strong player like John Gale who has many tournament wins, wouldn't you want him out rather than see him with chips? Link to post Share on other sites
TheCinciKid 0 Posted January 31, 2007 Share Posted January 31, 2007 Could be because one of my friends was one of those who flat called and he had a pp therefore I'm biased. But with a strong player like John Gale who has many tournament wins, wouldn't you want him out rather than see him with chips?It's day two of a major tournament. That sort of a consideration is completely irrelevant. You're purely in chip accumulation mode. That said, I don't think K9s is the hand I'd be trying to isolate with, but w/e. It's a good play with the right hand, not sure K9 is that hand. Link to post Share on other sites
blakheart 3 Posted January 31, 2007 Share Posted January 31, 2007 If you are afraid of John Gale then you should not be in this tournament. I would assume that every one who plays in a major tournament (excluding the WSOP) has some ability. To play scared because someone is a pro is a bigger mistake. Link to post Share on other sites
TwoFourOffsuit 0 Posted January 31, 2007 Share Posted January 31, 2007 At this point, saying this probably only serves the purpose of making everyone who disagrees think they're right... but I have to call bull****: if you have a chance to knock someone out, you try and create the best possible chance to knock them out, whether it's John Gale or TwoFourOffsuit the Moron.This guy should have called and checked along, especially with a pocket like K9s. There are plenty of other opportunities to acquire chips if you know what you're doing: you are not in a must-win situation here and your pocket does not give you a prime chance to win the hand, even against marginal pockets.This is not about being afraid: this is about knocking a warm body out of this tournament and getting a step closer to your goal, whether the tourney is some $30 B&M donkfest or a WPT event. You have a much better chance of sending Gale home with 4 in on the hand than just one.Call and check it down unless you've got a monster pocket. And no, K9s is not a monster pocket, and if you think so, then you probably shouldn't be in this tournament (LOL see what I did there?). Normally, even calling a raise with that kind of hand, let alone re-raising, is just donk-dumb unless you're sitting on a mountain of chips or playing limit. Link to post Share on other sites
IQCrash 1 Posted January 31, 2007 Share Posted January 31, 2007 At this point, saying this probably only serves the purpose of making everyone who disagrees think they're right... but I have to call bull****: if you have a chance to knock someone out, you try and create the best possible chance to knock them out, whether it's John Gale or TwoFourOffsuit the Moron.This guy should have called and checked along, especially with a pocket like K9s. There are plenty of other opportunities to acquire chips if you know what you're doing: you are not in a must-win situation here and your pocket does not give you a prime chance to win the hand, even against marginal pockets.This is not about being afraid: this is about knocking a warm body out of this tournament and getting a step closer to your goal, whether the tourney is some $30 B&M donkfest or a WPT event. You have a much better chance of sending Gale home with 4 in on the hand than just one.Call and check it down unless you've got a monster pocket. And no, K9s is not a monster pocket, and if you think so, then you probably shouldn't be in this tournament (LOL see what I did there?). Normally, even calling a raise with that kind of hand, let alone re-raising, is just donk-dumb unless you're sitting on a mountain of chips or playing limit.If you can't see the reasoning why you're wrong after reading mine and PMJ's posts, then there's not much else that can be done to convince you.So you go ahead and call off a chunk of your stack with three others and check it down hoping to hit, and I'll shovel there getting 5 or 6 to 1 against a loose range to increase my stack by 30%+. Link to post Share on other sites
IQCrash 1 Posted January 31, 2007 Share Posted January 31, 2007 Just to humor myself and elaborate further...For the sake of argument, we're operating under the assumptions:- that we're at the 300/600 blind level - with John Gale UTG holding a stack of 2,000 chips- we have a stack of 8,000 - 12,000- and we're not on the bubble or any other pay increase/FT situationWith his stack and the level of blinds, his range is huge. Assuming any two, we get: equity win tie pots won pots tied Hand 0: 40.012% 38.66% 01.35% 810946418 28324276.50 { random }Hand 1: 59.988% 58.64% 01.35% 1229977429 28324276.50 { Kd9d }If we tighten his range to any pair, any ace - we get: equity win tie pots won pots tied Hand 0: 59.661% 59.35% 00.31% 260146783 1376930.50 { 22+, A2s+, A2o+ }Hand 1: 40.339% 40.02% 00.31% 175449180 1376930.50 { Kd9d }If we expand his range to any broadway, any pair, we get: equity win tie pots won pots tied Hand 0: 58.040% 57.36% 00.68% 333948289 3953674.00 { 22+, A2s+, KTs+, QTs+, JTs, A2o+, KTo+, QTo+, JTo }Hand 1: 41.960% 41.28% 00.68% 240327723 3953674.00 { Kd9d }However you look at it, getting 5/6 to 1 with all the dead money in the middle, this is a clear as day push. Link to post Share on other sites
AcesUp46 0 Posted January 31, 2007 Share Posted January 31, 2007 POOOOOOOOOOSH Link to post Share on other sites
PMJackson21 0 Posted January 31, 2007 Share Posted January 31, 2007 Just to humor myself and elaborate further...::snip IQ talking to a wall::The funny thing is, based on the assumption that the iso-raiser has a short stack/marginal stack, calling and hoping to hit the flop is the worst option available to him. Link to post Share on other sites
Actuary 3 Posted January 31, 2007 Share Posted January 31, 2007 who kidnapped IQCrash?And who stole his password?He's talking Strategy ?and to Two4Offsuit.."check it down, hope to knock out a player and get closer to our goal..."lol, yeah... Link to post Share on other sites
IQCrash 1 Posted January 31, 2007 Share Posted January 31, 2007 who kidnapped IQCrash?And who stole his password?He's talking Strategy ?and to Two4Offsuit.."check it down, hope to knock out a player and get closer to our goal..."lol, yeah...I must have said something right if you didn't correct me and just went straight for the joke.Score. Link to post Share on other sites
Actuary 3 Posted January 31, 2007 Share Posted January 31, 2007 I must have said something right if you didn't correct me and just went straight for the joke.Score.like i can add to what pmj or chucksty already said! Link to post Share on other sites
GrinderMJ 0 Posted January 31, 2007 Share Posted January 31, 2007 like i can add to what pmj or chucksty already said!No no, PMJ and Chucksty are morons, twofouroffsuit is def. right. Side note I can't take a guy serious when he says pockets 1829338923 times in one post Link to post Share on other sites
IQCrash 1 Posted January 31, 2007 Share Posted January 31, 2007 No no, PMJ and Chucksty are morons, twofouroffsuit is def. right. Side note I can't take a guy serious when he says pockets 1829338923 times in one postBetween you and Actuary, it's as if I contributed nothiing to this thread. Link to post Share on other sites
GrinderMJ 0 Posted January 31, 2007 Share Posted January 31, 2007 Between you and Actuary, it's as if I contributed nothiing to this thread.AttentionSatisfied? Link to post Share on other sites
TwoFourOffsuit 0 Posted January 31, 2007 Share Posted January 31, 2007 If you can't see the reasoning why you're wrong after reading mine and PMJ's posts, then there's not much else that can be done to convince you.So you go ahead and call off a chunk of your stack with three others and check it down hoping to hit, and I'll shovel there getting 5 or 6 to 1 against a loose range to increase my stack by 30%+. If you think you can beat someone willing to make an all-in call heads-up with your K9suit, even if you know he'll push with a marginal hand when short stacked, then you go right ahead and raise everyone else out. You go ahead and play pot odds with a glorified hardway craps bet and take a chance of letting someone on the brink back into your tournament, instead of keeping 4 other hands in for relatively cheap, checking down and assuredly knocking someone out of a tournament you're trying to cash in. Link to post Share on other sites
IQCrash 1 Posted January 31, 2007 Share Posted January 31, 2007 If you think you can beat someone willing to make an all-in call heads-up with your K9suit, even if you know he'll push with a marginal hand when short stacked, then you go right ahead and raise everyone else out. You go ahead and play pot odds with a glorified hardway craps bet and take a chance of letting someone on the brink back into your tournament, instead of keeping 4 other hands in for relatively cheap, checking down and assuredly knocking someone out of a tournament you're trying to cash in.lol You're too smart for me, kiddo. You win. Link to post Share on other sites
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