Dealer Tips On Hsp

[fleung22 1]

Couldn't find the one you were talking about. Sure it was an article and not just a Thread somewhere?Decent Sexton Article on tipping: http://www.cardplayer.com/magazine/article/12401Mike Caro Articles: http://www.pokerplayernewspaper.com/viewar...&sort=topichttp://www.pokerplayernewspaper.com/viewar...amp;sort=authorAnother article:http://www.cardplayer.com/magazine/article/14082

Good try but those aren't it. It'll be obvious if you do stumble upon it.If I had to guess it's either an article by a Shulman or one of the math guys. It talks about the -EV of tipping but then uses Daniel as an example of someone who tips because it's +EV on life.

[Foldalotamus 0]

this one?http://www.cardplayer.com/magazine/article/14409G (-:

[fleung22 1]

this one?http://www.cardplayer.com/magazine/article/14409G (-:

That's it! Good job!I'll post it for the boyz...see below.The Expected Value (EV) of LifeClifton X. Savior is a generous name for a generous guy. Clifton and I were on our way to play poker last week at a club in New York when we got on the subject of tipping dealers. At this particular club, they hand out tickets every time you win a hand for a drawing to win prizes, typically cheap electronics. Clifton, who plays either $4-$8 limit hold'em or no-limit hold'em with $1-$2 blinds, was commenting about all the times he had walked out of the club broke with 30 tickets as his lone consolation prize.We arrived at the club and everyone had a smile for Clifton. The floorperson seemed eager to please, and found us two seats at a no-limit table with $1-$2 blinds. Over the course of the next four hours, the game was between six- and eight-handed. You pay by the half-hour ($4 for this game), so the players act quickly and the dealers oblige. On average, Clifton was winning five pots an hour. He was tipping two bucks on small pots and three on big ones. And this being New York - and not Las Vegas - no one was sitting at the table with a roll of half dollars and a half-price coupon book stuffed in a fanny pack. Clifton's tips were generous but not beyond the norm.If you're a student of poker or expected value (EV), you've already figured this out: Clifton has absolutely no win. Between the rake and tips, he's hemorrhaging $20 an hour, and while he's a solid player, he's not that solid (certainly not solid enough to compensate for the overhead at these limits). He might as well go to the racetrack.If you're a little smarter than the average bear, you might be looking for other motives. Might Clifton be a journalist, quietly gathering information for a prestigious magazine or a new book? Does he have a secret crush on one of the dealers whom he is trying to impress with his generosity? Is he a detective in the midst of a sting operation?If any of the following are true, you - the astute student of EV - might forgive his generous tipping. Because it has a purpose that can lead to financial personal or professional gain, it can be booked as an expense. Maybe he could even justify adding 10 bucks an hour to his official poker log.But stop for a second and try to think beyond EV. Maybe he works around angry people all day and likes the positive energy that comes from being a generous tipper. Maybe he works in the service business and knows the value of manual labor. Or, maybe it simply makes him feel good to tip. Those are all reasons that have nothing to do with financial EV.In my first book, The Finance Doctor, I advised readers to evaluate costs over the course of a year. Spending $5 a day on cigarettes might not seem like such a big deal, but when you consider that you're inhaling $1,825 over the course of a year, it makes a greater impact. As poker players, you already know this. Whether it's the rake, tipping, value betting, or comps, you know that the value of a small edge adds up to your livelihood.I remember going to a Chicago Cubs game with my friend Zubs back in August of 1999, and every time he bought a hot dog or a beer, he told the vendor to keep the change. "Zubs, even though that doesn't add up to much over the course of a game, it does over the course of a season." I was making six figures not breaking much of a sweat as a consultant, and I was chastising my friend for giving a guy who was sweating through his shirt an extra quarter.Playing poker professionally led me to be immersed in the world of EV. I had gone so far as to not only begrudge someone a little spare change, but also lecture a friend on the merits of not doing so. Shortly after the Cubs game, I went on a blind date, and the subject of poker came up. After about a half-hour, the woman asked me, "So, what came first, the poker or the poker face?" Here I was away from the poker table, yet I was so guarded about giving off a tell that I couldn't begin to let a beautiful woman get to know me.Five years later, it seems like every day that my brother Andy quotes Wayne Dyer, when he says: "The more you change the way you look at things, the more the things you look at change."For years, I have extolled the virtues of poker and how it is a fantastic metaphor for business. Along the way, I've forgotten that it can also be an awful metaphor for life. Keeping your cards close to the vest is a great strategy in business; it's also a lousy one for dealing with someone you love. Never showing emotion is a great way to sell a bluff; it's also a lousy way to be around your family. Being mindful of every little expense is a great way to build your 401K; it's also a lousy way to treat people in the service industry.Last year around Christmas, I watched Daniel Negreanu walk through the poker room at Bellagio with a rack of $25 chips and $100 chips and pass them out to the dealers and staff. He had a big smile on his face as he wished everyone a Merry Christmas. If I think only about EV, I can come up with arguments both ways as to whether or not this was a smart move. But when I think about life, my only conclusion is that the EV to Daniel's life is so great that it can't be quantified.If you want to be a professional risk-taker, you must explore small edges, control costs, and look at every bet as a value proposition. But if you can't turn that off when you're living your life, it will be tough to find any joy from the money you accumulate. How many wealthy, miserable gamblers do you know?Clifton rarely buys in for more than $100. If he goes broke, he reasons that he still would have spent more money in a bar that evening. He saves his liver, makes some friends, receives positive energy, and, on his good nights, goes home with a few bucks. Sure, tipping well is a cost, but being able to talk through a hand with a dealer when he's grabbing a smoke or simply being welcomed with a warm smile is also a benefit. But benefits and EV aside, he tips what he tips because it makes him feel good - and that's reason enough. spadesGreg Dinkin is available for keynote speeches. He is also the co-founder of Venture Literary, www.ventureliterary.com.

[11 to 1 0]

If I had to guess it's either an article by a Shulman or one of the math guys. It talks about the -EV of tipping but then uses Daniel as an example of someone who tips because it's +EV on life.

This is a good thread for me, because I just started playing as well as playing regularly in a casino, and the tipping issue is one I haven't resolved, yet.Being so new and having limited perosnal income, I play lowest limit Holdem. I win enough to keep playing, I figure it as paying tuition. The first time I ever played, I broke even, and realized I'd have been in profit if I hadn't tipped every hand I won. I started with $100, ended with $101 and toked off $11. Thing is, at Foxwoods they share the tips amongst all the dealers, poker and casino games. (Don't know much about those, but they are those card games not poker where the dealers stand up.) I met a dealer here at a Christmas party who said she makes about $20 an hour after the tips are added. She does get benefits, BTW. I am usually a pretty good tipper. Waited a few tables in my day, my daughter did the work for a while in college, so I get it and usually am pretty generous unless the service just sucks. But, the poker thing seems different to me. The dealers are sometimes great, sometimes surly, sometimes inept. They all start at the low levels and the best ones move up to high stakes. But - at these levels, the toking becomes a significant factor. When I get good enough to move up, $12 a session in tips will seem about right and I will, I hope, get consistently better service. For right now, I have quit tipping. BUT - if the tips went directly to the dealer at the table, I think I would tip. I'd tip for good service and I'd tip more on a large pot. But when they are sharing the tips anyway, and when they are rude, to boot, I have a hard time wanting to give them my money.

[Scanner313 0]

And when you figure that HIGH STAKES are only tipping $5 per pot, they are tipping a much smaller percentage of each pot.

The whole issue of "tipping" was discussed in depth about a year or so ago on this forum. It became a viscious battle between people who work for tips and those who use their services.My take is that the dealer is paid by the house with the understanding that they will be getting tips. That's not the dealer's fault, so they should be tipped. However, tipping based on the size of the pot is ridiculous. Just because a pot gets up to $300 doesn't mean the dealer should get more than if the pot was $30. At my local cardroom, the dealers are all pretty happy to get a buck a pot. Some people tip more based on the size of the pot, I tip more based on the amount of work the dealer had to do for that pot. For example, if there are 3 people and 2 are all-in, and the dealer has to make side pots and keep track of what's going on. If I win a pot under those circumstances I'll throw the dealer $2 or $3, but that's the max. then at the end of the night I might spot the dealers a few extra bucks (up to $10, each) if I've had a good night.I think that tipping more because you're playing a larger stakes game is ridiculous. The dealer isn't doing any extra work. This goes for waitressing as well, in my opinion. The fact that the food I ordered at a fancy place is 10x the cost of the same type of food at the local diner doesn't justify the waiter/waitress at the fancy place getting 10x the tip. Unfortunately, the percentage method is the accepted method, so here's what I do...When I eat at a fancy place and get good service I will normally tip about 12%. When I eat at the diner and get good service I normally tip 20-25%. After all, when the service is of the same caliber why should the college kid (who was probably lucky enough to know someone to get the job at the good place) make more for the same work than the 40 something working mother? Knowing that those fancy place waiters can make $300 - $400 a night in tips for a 5 or 6 hour shift bugs the crap out of me because I know that the woman in the diner might be lucky to make $100 for an 8 hour shift. She's just unlucky in that the food she serves doesn't cost nearly as much.And not for mothing, but any dealer who thinks they should be tipped more than a buck a hand should stop complaining. I've dealt plenty in my time, usually as a volunteer during tourneys at my local cardroom, and it's not exactly hard labor. If you can make $25 to $30 an hour dealing that is a very nice hourly rate considering that most anyone can be good at it after about 1 hours practice. And I'm not trying to belittle anyone here, but the scope of the work needs to be kept in perspective when considering how much it should pay per hour.Just my $.02.

[fleung22 1]

In a game...we'll say $1-2 NLH I'll tip $1 on a pot larger than $10 (after rake). If it's a big pot then maybe $2-3.I've tipped more than described above many times but I am concerned about longterm EV as this is p/t work for me.The one rule I don't break is this. If I don't hear "thank you" after I tip you then you're not seeing another tip from me again. I appreciate the dealers' work but if you don't have the energy or manners to say thanks then I don't have the energy to toke you.

[Foldalotamus 0]

i have to agree with 11 to 1 (and as somewhat stated in mike caro's article). the dealer should be paid...not all the dealers. what's the use in getting good service if all of them get the tips? they know it's "required" to tip. if you could not tip the bad dealers the service would change. it would be interesting to see management's points on 11 to 1's issues, but we'd probably get a company line. G (-:

[delphi12 0]

In Australia it is illegal to tip at the casino - and generally rude everywhere else. I loved visiting there! I have definitely come down on my tipping lately. I think its funny in this thread people talk about poor service to those who tip poorly. How do you know how much I am going to tip when I first walk in your restaurant? Thats a pretty neat trick.

[Abbaddabba 0]

In Australia it is illegal to tip at the casino - and generally rude everywhere else. I loved visiting there! I have definitely come down on my tipping lately. I think its funny in this thread people talk about poor service to those who tip poorly. How do you know how much I am going to tip when I first walk in your restaurant? Thats a pretty neat trick.

Basically they rely on the generous people, and the cheap skates get off easy. On the up side, you get to stiff the real twats and tip the people you actually want to.Workers who rant about people not tipping remind me of dogs. They take a ****, and they think they deserve a treat or something because it's been reinforced in their mind so many times. Im a sucker though... i cant say no. I tip with almost everything. Except the ones who look like they'll get vicious if you dont give them their treat (pokergoat). I'd kick that one in the ribs if i could.

[DoinSublime 0]

This is a good thread for me, because I just started playing as well as playing regularly in a casino, and the tipping issue is one I haven't resolved, yet.Being so new and having limited perosnal income, I play lowest limit Holdem. I win enough to keep playing, I figure it as paying tuition. The first time I ever played, I broke even, and realized I'd have been in profit if I hadn't tipped every hand I won. I started with $100, ended with $101 and toked off $11. Thing is, at Foxwoods they share the tips amongst all the dealers, poker and casino games. (Don't know much about those, but they are those card games not poker where the dealers stand up.) I met a dealer here at a Christmas party who said she makes about $20 an hour after the tips are added. She does get benefits, BTW. I am usually a pretty good tipper. Waited a few tables in my day, my daughter did the work for a while in college, so I get it and usually am pretty generous unless the service just sucks. But, the poker thing seems different to me. The dealers are sometimes great, sometimes surly, sometimes inept. They all start at the low levels and the best ones move up to high stakes. But - at these levels, the toking becomes a significant factor. When I get good enough to move up, $12 a session in tips will seem about right and I will, I hope, get consistently better service. For right now, I have quit tipping. BUT - if the tips went directly to the dealer at the table, I think I would tip. I'd tip for good service and I'd tip more on a large pot. But when they are sharing the tips anyway, and when they are rude, to boot, I have a hard time wanting to give them my money.

So you're one of the barely winning players that Wrath talked about. Good luck with that. The extra $10 a day should make you a comfortable pro in no time.

[DoinSublime 0]

In Australia it is illegal to tip at the casino - and generally rude everywhere else. I loved visiting there! I have definitely come down on my tipping lately. I think its funny in this thread people talk about poor service to those who tip poorly. How do you know how much I am going to tip when I first walk in your restaurant? Thats a pretty neat trick.

Sorry, but you have a big bright yellow flag on your head. Can read you like a book 95% of the time. Just a read you acquire. Imagine someone who doesn't play poker asking Daniel, 'but how did you know what he had?" The reads you get on people after a certain time in the business are pretty sick actually. I bet I could tell you how someone treats their wife pretty accurately after just taking their wine order. And I'm sure delphi I'd have a sick read on you the moment you talked to the hostess as I walked by.

[Wrathraven 0]

i have to agree with 11 to 1 (and as somewhat stated in mike caro's article). the dealer should be paid...not all the dealers. what's the use in getting good service if all of them get the tips? they know it's "required" to tip. if you could not tip the bad dealers the service would change. it would be interesting to see management's points on 11 to 1's issues, but we'd probably get a company line. G (-:

I totally agree that pooled tips are completely retarded and I'm happy my local cardrooms don't do this. If they did I would not be as generous as I am. Pooled tips hurt incentive to deal well, since you're not responsible for what you get, and reeks of communism!

[DoinSublime 0]

I totally agree that pooled tips are completely retarded and I'm happy my local cardrooms don't do this. If they did I would not be as generous as I am. Pooled tips hurt incentive to deal well, since you're not responsible for what you get, and reeks of communism!

I agree about pooled tips. I have never worked in a place that pools tips, nor would I.

[JaysForLife 0]

Sorry, but you have a big bright yellow flag on your head. Can read you like a book 95% of the time. Just a read you acquire. Imagine someone who doesn't play poker asking Daniel, 'but how did you know what he had?" The reads you get on people after a certain time in the business are pretty sick actually. I bet I could tell you how someone treats their wife pretty accurately after just taking their wine order. And I'm sure delphi I'd have a sick read on you the moment you talked to the hostess as I walked by.

Lol so you're implying that you can pick out the people who are going to be lousy tippers and then you give them poor service. Maybe the reason they tip poorly isnt that they are simply cheap, but the fact that you have already picked them out, and gave them poor service.

[DoinSublime 0]

Lol so you're implying that you can pick out the people who are going to be lousy tippers and then you give them poor service. Maybe the reason they tip poorly isnt that they are simply cheap, but the fact that you have already picked them out, and gave them poor service.

I didn't say anything about, or even imply in the slightest, anything about giving anybody poor service, nor have I ever said that, or would I ever DO that. You said that. Get it straight.You get the same proper, excellent service. I just know you're a schmuck from the get-go.

[rgold79 0]

I totally agree that pooled tips are completely retarded and I'm happy my local cardrooms don't do this. If they did I would not be as generous as I am. Pooled tips hurt incentive to deal well, since you're not responsible for what you get, and reeks of communism!

Dealers of the world unite! You have nothing to lose but your chains!

[David_Nicoson 1]

Why should i tip a dealer anything while I am playing a 1/2 NL game and they take a percentage of every pot as well as 6 dollars every half hour... maybe if I had some nickel chips I would consider it.

I've never played anywhere with a rake AND a time charge. Where was this?

[FileError404 0]

EDDIEAll right. Everybody cough up some green for the little lady.Come on. Throw in a buck.MR. PINKUh-uh. I don't tip.EDDIEYou don't tip?MR. PINKNo - I don't believe in it.EDDIEYou don't believe in tipping?MR. BLUEYou know what these chicks make? They make ****.MR. PINKDon't give me that. She don't make enough money, she can quit. (Mr. Blonde laughs.) EDDIEI don't even know a ****ing Jew who'd have the balls to say that. Let me just get this straight. You don't ever tip, huh?MR. PINKI don't tip because society says I have to. Alright, I mean I'll tip if somebody really deserves a tip, if they really put forth the effort, I'll give 'em something extra, but I mean this tipping automatically is for the birds. (Eddie laughs.) I mean as far as I'm concerned they're just doing their job.MR. BLUEHey, this girl was nice.MR. PINKShe was OK - but she wasn't anything special.MR. BLUEWhat's special, take you in the back and suck your ****? (They laugh.) EDDIEI'd go over 12% for that.MR. PINKHey Look, I ordered coffee, right? Now we've been here a long ****in time, and she's only filled my cup three times. When I order coffee, I want it filled six timesMR. BLONDESix times? Well, you know, what if she's too ****ing busy?MR. PINKWords "too ****ing busy" shouldn't be in a waitress' vocabulary.EDDIEExcuse me, Mr. Pink - the last ****ing thing you need's another cup of coffee.MR. PINKJesus Christ - I mean these ladies aren't starving to death. They make minimum wage. You know, I used to work minimum wage. And when I did, I wasn't lucky enough to have a job society deemed tip-worthy.MR. BLUEYou don't care they're counting on your tips to live? (Mr. Pink rubs two of his fingers together.) MR. PINKYou know what this is? It's the world's smallest violin playing just for the waitresses.MR. WHITEYou don't have any idea what you're talking about. These people bust their ***. This is a hard job.MR. PINKSo's working at McDonald's, but you don't feel the need to tip them, do you? Why not? They're servin ya food. But no, society says don't tip these guys over here, but tip these guys over here. That's bullshit.MR. WHITEWaitressing is the number one occupation for female noncollege graduates in this country. It's the one job basically any woman can get and make a living on. The reason is because of their tips.MR. PINK(pauses) **** all that. (They all laugh.) MR. BROWNJesus Christ!MR. PINKHey, I'm very sorry that the government taxes their tips. That's ****ed up. That ain't my fault. It would appear that waitresses are just one of the many groups the government ****s in the *** on a regular basis. You show me a paper says the government shouldn't do that, I'll sign it. Put it to a vote, I'll vote for it. But what I won't do is play ball. And this non-college bullshit you're giving me, I got two words for that: "Learn to ****in type." Cause if you're expecting me to help out with the rent, you're in for a big ****in' surprise.MR. ORANGEHey - he's convinced me. Give me my dollar back.EDDIEHey! Leave the dollars there.JOEAll right, ramblers, let's get ramblin'. Wait a minute. Who didn't throw in?MR. ORANGEMr. Pink.JOEMr. Pink? Why not?MR. ORANGEHe don't tip.JOEHe don't tip? What do you mean you don't tip?MR. ORANGEHe don't believe in it.JOEShut up. What do you mean you don't believe in it? Come on, you, cough up a buck, you cheap *******. I paid for your goddamn breakfast.MR. PINKAlright - since you paid for the breakfast, I'll put in, but normally I would never do this.JOENever mind what you normally would do. Just cough in your goddamn buck like everybody else. Thank you.Sorry, couldn't resist...About the tipping habits in the big game read: http://table-tango.pokerworks.com/ Got to love Linda.

[Dogpatch 2]

Lemme tell you what 'Like a Virgin' is about. It's all about this cooze who's a regular fuck machine, I'm talking morning, day, night, afternoon, dick, dick, dick, dick, dick, dick, dick, dick, dick. How many dicks is that? A lot.

[DoinSublime 0]

I don't give a good **** what you know, or don't know, but I'm gonna torture you anyway, regardless.

[Dogpatch 2]

I don't give a good goddam what you know or don't know, I'm gonna torture you anyway.

Here I am, stuck in the middle with you.

[DoinSublime 0]

Here I am, stuck in the middle with you.

Are you gonna bark all day, little doggie, or are you gonna bite?

[Dogpatch 2]

Are you gonna bark all day, little doggie, or are you gonna bite?

What was that? I'm sorry, I didn't catch it. Would you repeat it?

[DoinSublime 0]

Are you gonna bark all day, little doggy, or are you gonna bite?

[pokergoat 0]

Of course drug dealers want people to buy drugs... It's how they make money. That was just a silly thing to say and totally irrelevant to the whole situation here. But they don’t expect a tip from you. Silly man tricks are for kids!