You Call That Crazy Loose? (20/40)

[CobaltBlue 662]

Commerce Casino 20/40 LHE (9-handed)Cobalt is SB w/ Q 5 . BB is a bit of a calling station. UTG and UTG+1 are fairly solid. MP1 is quite loose and somewhat aggressive (though I don't have much of a read on him at this point). MP2 is quite LAG and bad. I'm probably viewed as fairly TAG. This is the first pot that I can recall that's gotten 3-bet on the flop this multiway.Pre-flop:UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, 2 folds, Button calls, Cobalt calls, BB checksFlop (7 SB): T 8 5 (7 players)Cobalt bets, BB calls, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, MP1 raises, MP2 calls, 1 fold, Cobalt 3-bets, BB calls, 2 folds, MP1 calls, MP2 callsTurn (10.5 BB): T (4 players)Cobalt checks, BB checks, MP1 bets, MP2 calls, Cobalt ?

[Zach6668 513]

I think this one is pretty straight forward.Call and fold river unless you hit your flush, in which case I probably bet/call.Actually, I would reevaluate if we catch a Q or a 5, as we could have enough to call the river on, for one bet.- Zach

[TwoFourOffsuit 0]

Raise and see what MP1 does, as he's easily your biggest threat here. I wouldn't worry unless he reraises.Possibilities for MP1: he had a 10 and nailed trips, MAAAYBE he's got a club pocket with a pair/good kicker and has a draw, or he's just a LAG with something like middle pair high kicker and is betting in because he thinks everyone else has nothing.EDIT: Or... what Zack said.

[CoranMoran 0]

You're not ahead.I don't see you bluffing both opponents off the hand.Thus a turn call seems standard.A river check-fold ui would then follow.But some situations could warrant a check-call.I lead out if I river my Flush.--CM

[LuckyMcCatcher 0]

Raise and see what MP1 does, as he's easily your biggest threat here. I wouldn't worry unless he reraises.Possibilities for MP1: he had a 10 and nailed trips, MAAAYBE he's got a club pocket with a pair/good kicker and has a draw, or he's just a LAG with something like middle pair high kicker and is betting in because he thinks everyone else has nothing.EDIT: Or... what Zack said.

I no likey. turn was horrible for a number of reasons, cr'ing when our outs are cut in half and the possibility of a 3bet make this a clear c/c.

[TwoFourOffsuit 0]

I no likey. turn was horrible for a number of reasons, cr'ing when our outs are cut in half and the possibility of a 3bet make this a clear c/c.

Yeah, on second thought, I'm seeing things Zach's way. The tens are both on the board and the only other thing the hero has are the 5's (low pair) and a flush draw he already missed in his 1st try.

[TheCinciKid 0]

Call turn, fold river UI. Bet/call if you hit the flush.

[CobaltBlue 662]

My read is that at least one player has at least two pair on the flop. Additionally, my read on the turn is that the rest of the players are on draws. How often are we drawing live?

[LuckyMcCatcher 0]

My read is that at least one player has at least two pair on the flop. Additionally, my read on the turn is that the rest of the players are on draws. How often are we drawing live?

enough to continue drawing.

[MightyLouse 0]

My read is that at least one player has at least two pair on the flop. Additionally, my read on the turn is that the rest of the players are on draws. How often are we drawing live?

I was thinking something like this. I typed out a response when you first posted this hand and ended up not adding it because I really didn't know what to do. It's not all that unlikely that nobody has a boat but we're still drawing dead. If anybody had top two or a set on the flop, we are now dead. If somebody had Kxd or Axd, we're nearly dead, and totally dead if somebody has a bigger diamond draw.But we're getting 12.5-1 on a call. There seems to be a good chance somebody else has diamonds, so the pure number of our diamond outs should be discounted somewhat. And our reverse implied odds are brutal. We can't play the river too aggressively because we'll get hammered when behind so our implied odds are terrible, too. I think I call, and check/call any diamond river while folding everything else. I know that seems weak, but I think we're behind so often we want to put as few bets in when a diamond rolls off.

[LuckyMcCatcher 0]

I was thinking something like this. I typed out a response when you first posted this hand and ended up not adding it because I really didn't know what to do. It's not all that unlikely that nobody has a boat but we're still drawing dead. If anybody had top two or a set on the flop, we are now dead. If somebody had Kxd or Axd, we're nearly dead, and totally dead if somebody has a bigger diamond draw.But we're getting 12.5-1 on a call. There seems to be a good chance somebody else has diamonds, so the pure number of our diamond outs should be discounted somewhat. And our reverse implied odds are brutal. We can't play the river too aggressively because we'll get hammered when behind so our implied odds are terrible, too. I think I call, and check/call any diamond river while folding everything else. I know that seems weak, but I think we're behind so often we want to put as few bets in when a diamond rolls off.

This is way wrong. Also I woul like to hear why you think that T8 wouldnt cap this flop. We are rarely drawiing dead here.

[MightyLouse 0]

This is way wrong. Also I woul like to hear why you think that T8 wouldnt cap this flop. We are rarely drawiing dead here.

Yeah, 8T probably caps here at least 75% of the time. Maybe closer to 85%. Same with a set, unless someone's mistakenly looking to raise it up on the turn. I think we're drawing either dead or very slim a solid portion of the time here. I doubt our queens are good that often. Same with our fives. I'm unhappy with taking an aggressive river line with pretty much any hand. This board is very very dangerous for our hand. It's possible that we're drawing to 9 + 2 + 3 full outs against something like an oddly played JJ or something. If I river a flush, I really don't feel all that comfortable getting more than a single bet in.EDIT: I just read the reads and noticed this was a 20/40 game at commerce, not at Starz or something. I'm now more happy with our edge here, though still not overjoyed. There are a lot more draw happy hands, and Tx type hands that are sticking around and raising/gambling.

[CobaltBlue 662]

Looks like I dogged this one pretty hard. Part of it was smarting from an earlier hand where I drew into a straight on the river after a guy had already flopped a house. My read on the flop was two pair or set...it didn't strike me as possible that MP1 would raise without that strong of a hand. With everyone else sticking around, I'm then feeling like others are drawing. Well, what are they drawing to? The most obvious draw is a flush...and Axd/Kxd were screaming out at me.I hestitate to post results so soon, but...I folded and BB called. River came 6 and they checked it down. MP1 turned over 85s, the other two mucked, and MP1 cockily/triumphantly collected the pot. I felt sick. My read was "right"...just a little off. Basically, the lesson here (which I felt I knew already but violated)...don't fold in gigantic pots...even if there's a chance you're drawing dead.

[Zach6668 513]

...don't fold in gigantic pots...even if there's a chance you're drawing dead.

lol... did you see my 33 set post?

[Bubba83 0]

Without reading replies...I don't like the flop 3-bet. I realize you're trying to get value now, but I think it's bad due to having to act first on the turn. When you don't hit a favorable turn card, your hand becomes extremely transparent using this line. I think if you just call the raise on the flop you get nearly as much value by probably having the 2 that folded in this hand call instead. The only other reason to reraise would be to clean up outs which I don't see what kind of outs we're cleaning up here.On the turn: Whether it was played the way I suggested or the way you played it, I think a check/call line is definitely in order.Edit: After reading responses... I'm a little surprised no one else commented on the flop play. Am I to understand you guys liked the 3-bet here on the flop? If you did like it, tell me why!

[Sefaje 0]

Looks like I dogged this one pretty hard. Part of it was smarting from an earlier hand where I drew into a straight on the river after a guy had already flopped a house. My read on the flop was two pair or set...it didn't strike me as possible that MP1 would raise without that strong of a hand. With everyone else sticking around, I'm then feeling like others are drawing. Well, what are they drawing to? The most obvious draw is a flush...and Axd/Kxd were screaming out at me.I hestitate to post results so soon, but...I folded and BB called. River came 6 and they checked it down. MP1 turned over 85s, the other two mucked, and MP1 cockily/triumphantly collected the pot. I felt sick. My read was "right"...just a little off. Basically, the lesson here (which I felt I knew already but violated)...don't fold in gigantic pots...even if there's a chance you're drawing dead.

Yeah, I'm trying to figure out what in the hell these guys are playing if it wasn't any hand with a ten or two diamonds.

Without reading replies...I don't like the flop 3-bet. I realize you're trying to get value now, but I think it's bad due to having to act first on the turn. When you don't hit a favorable turn card, your hand becomes extremely transparent using this line. I think if you just call the raise on the flop you get nearly as much value by probably having the 2 that folded in this hand call instead. The only other reason to reraise would be to clean up outs which I don't see what kind of outs we're cleaning up here.On the turn: Whether it was played the way I suggested or the way you played it, I think a check/call line is definitely in order.Edit: After reading responses... I'm a little surprised no one else commented on the flop play. Am I to understand you guys liked the 3-bet here on the flop? If you did like it, tell me why!

This is what I was going to post. Since you bet the flop and got 3 calls and a raise (and call), you may not be on the best flush draw. I'd proceed with caution, although I think calling/checking a non-diamond turn looks more like a flushdraw than 3bet/checking. Still seems like you should just call as opposed to the flop 3bet.

[Bubba83 0]

I'd proceed with caution, although I think calling/checking a non-diamond turn looks more like a flushdraw than 3bet/checking.

I don't think so. It looks more like a 10 with a bad kicker to me, since we initially bet out.What hand 3-bets the flop in that spot and then checks a non diamond turn that isn't a flush draw? Are there any? A 10 when a king comes on the turn? Maybe... The only other hand that's worth 3-betting on the flop out of position like this is a set or two pair, which wouldn't be checking any turn unless it was the 8 5 two pair with the 10 hitting the turn.

[iggymcfly 0]

I agree with Bubba here that the first thing that jumped to out to me in this hand was the flop and it's played quite poorly.I like the lead because you've got a good hand that wants bets in the pot, and you're going to trap a lot of people in between, but I hate the 3-bet. In the first place, you're shutting out people that you want in the hand when you hit your draw. You're getting almost the same number of total bets in, but you're putting more in yourself, and you're not cleaning up your outs at all.Also, as stated, you're making your hand completely transparent (big draw) as no other hand on earth bet/3-bet/checks unless a scare card comes off. And you're draws non-nut so you don't even know for sure that you're outs are live. Especially, if you're unconfident enough in your outs to fold getting 12.5:1 on the turn, there's no way you should be 3-betting the flop OOP.Oh, and c/c the turn. If you're draw's live even 40% of the time, you're gaining more equity by calling than you could possibly gain with your silly flop 3-bet. Finally, given that no one capped the flop, I think the odds that you're live are much higher than you estimate. I'd expect MP1 to cap with a set or top two and I'd expect MP2 to cap with a better flush draw last to act on the flop. (This is a 4-bet cap right? Never played in Cali.) BB is all you really need to worry about here.