Interesting Flop Situation In Big Pot, Wheel Wrap Draw On Paired Board, 600

[akishore 0]

600 PLO8, ringUTG - $550CO - $750Hero - $800SB - coversHero is Button with .UTG opens to $21, UTG+1 calls, ..., CO calls, Hero calls, SB calls, BB calls.($126, 6 plrs) SB bets $126, BB folds, UTG calls, UTG+1 folds, CO calls, Hero calls.I would normally fold this flop if it folded to me, but with three callers I thought this call was correct. If a low card comes on the turn I'm going to showdown (that obv includes hitting a wheel), but the turn can be tricky to play if it comes a high card.Thoughts? (if it's not clear, the call looks ultra easy after two other callers, but I think turn play can be really tough. The pot going into the turn will be ~$630. UTG will have ~$400 left, I will have ~$650 left.)Aseemedit: also a quick point to make is that I will almost never get the high end of this pot with a wheel, imo. So I'm basically drawing to just half, which is normally a sin, except I feel it may be okay here...edit: also, player reads -- SB is a pretty good LAG, UTG is new but seems to be a very bad spewer, CO is a pretty solid TAG.

[Chamonyx 0]

easy call especially as you are last to act. implied odds are very good, especially as you may have 2 players chasing high. only problem is that many of your outs may be dead, but worry about that on the turn.

[akishore 0]

Just one reply?I guess I wasn't clear -- a big part of my question is the plan for the turn. Just shoot out some hypotheticals and what you would do, e.g. low turn vs high turn, a pot bet with both players folding, a pot bet with one player calling, sb checking, one person potting it and one fold (so now you aren't closing the action), etc.Aseem

[Head_Trauma 0]

Just one reply?I guess I wasn't clear -- a big part of my question is the plan for the turn. Just shoot out some hypotheticals and what you would do, e.g. low turn vs high turn, a pot bet with both players folding, a pot bet with one player calling, sb checking, one person potting it and one fold (so now you aren't closing the action), etc.Aseem

Well, as you said, if a low card comes on the turn, you are going to showdown. As for a high card, I don't think you can continue if SB puts in a pot sized bet. Whether UTG and/or CO call, I think it would be a big mistake for you to put the rest of your chips in. At best, you could catch half the pot, but I think it more likely that even if a low card comes you are getting quartered. I think the same thing applies if SB checks and UTG or the CO pushes. I think the only way we can continue in this hand if a high card comes is if SB bets out a smaller amount, say half the pot or less and either UTG, CO or both call. I don't really see SB making this bet, but if he did and got called, the massive pot odds would definitely dictate calling.

[Chamonyx 0]

Just one reply?I guess I wasn't clear -- a big part of my question is the plan for the turn. Just shoot out some hypotheticals and what you would do, e.g. low turn vs high turn, a pot bet with both players folding, a pot bet with one player calling, sb checking, one person potting it and one fold (so now you aren't closing the action), etc.Aseem

Low: Your priority is to try to get as much money as possible in without losing anybody so you can leverage your cfp while minimising your 1/4 risk. Bet/Raise accordinglyHigh: you have 21 theoretical outs for almost certainly half the pot at most and maybe 1/4. Of these, lets say 9 are in other players hands, so you have 12 live outs and are (very roughly) 3:1 to hit. If the action is such that I am getting these odds AND there are at least 2 other players seeing the river, then I would call (and hate it!).

[goose 0]

aksihore, if you're the same one I remember from a while ago, you should realize the complexion of these strat forums has changed a lot. I believe you'll be hard pressed to find meaningful input (outside a very small handful of players) on games this (relatively) big in plo8.

[antistuff 0]

aksihore, if you're the same one I remember from a while ago, you should realize the complexion of these strat forums has changed a lot. I believe you'll be hard pressed to find meaningful input (outside a very small handful of players) on games this (relatively) big in plo8.

i was going to type a few paragraphs about what i think on this situation, but i guess i shouldn't waste my time. ----------actually im going to think more and then type something latter, but dude, youre an ***.

[goose 0]

i was going to type a few paragraphs about what i think on this situation, but i guess i shouldn't waste my time. ----------actually im going to think more and then type something latter, but dude, youre an ***.

Contributing somehting is always worthwhile, there are 1/2 players who occaisonaly say something that clicks with high limit players, or makes them think of things in a new way. I in no way meant to discourage posts, I was responding to his apparant surprise at the lack of responses to his question.For example, I don't play at those limits, but I think regardless of the game that flop call is standard, especially given that when you check the turn (assumably that will be the case), you'll have stolen position if/when UTG leads again.... and if it's a great card (5/6/7/8 diamond) you're in position to get it all in, hopefully with 1/2 the pot locked up, but worst case 1/4 of the pot with a decent draw at another 1/4, maybe even a half)...

[ahosang 0]

Wow!This is one of the classic raise/fold examples in PL poker if I ever saw one. Calling is pretty poor IMO.No-one has mentioned stack sizes, and a lot of what's posted has blatantly ignored the fact that everyone can be virtually all-in to one single pot bet.

High: you have 21 theoretical outs for almost certainly half the pot at most and maybe 1/4. Of these, lets say 9 are in other players hands, so you have 12 live outs and are (very roughly) 3:1 to hit.

Not to nit-pick, but that's clearly 2-1 based on our assumption of the 9 outs.PL poker has a concept which is not often mentioned.Raise/fold: crucial dependent on (i) stack-sizes (ii) fold equity (iii) dead money (iv) hand strengthPosition is not particularly advantageous if you call. If there is any nut low draw they'll call as well on turn if low hits, so why bother. If the turn is high, then you have a very tough situation where you may have to fold. The point of position as far as this hand is so that you can raise these sorts of pots if you wish. Btw, what do you think CO(who you descibed as a solid TAG) is doing in this hand??Evaluate your chances, and raise or fold in this hand, akishore. Calling is terrible. I fold, but I play PLO8 weak-tight(by preference as it's my low variance game of choice) and I never knowingly chase splits or in this case, even ¹/₄.There's a small chance of a scoop, but as akishore said, it's slim.

[goose 0]

I can't think of anything worse than raising this pot...

[ahosang 0]

I can't think of anything worse than raising this pot...

I can - calling in this spot. That's why i fold. But a raise may cause a weak-tight CO to fold his low draw, or if he calls, he may be counterfeited(we can't be counterfeited). Or maybe cause any player to fold a hand which might have boated and split with our wheel. We have no further pot-manipulation to make, and a raise allows us to play our low(strictly to hit low) for the last 2 cards - anywhere between 50%-85% - with a likely value being 60%. Can you actually give some reason to your thoughts or is it just a random opinion??Note that no-one else really said anything, but your 3 posts in this thread have been dubious to say the least. First you say something about the O8 forum not having much 'meaningful input'.Then in your next post, you waffle on about:

check the turn (assumably that will be the case)

care to explain why there'd likely be no bet in front - not saying there will be, just want to know why you assume this?

you'll have stolen position if/when UTG leads again

Jesus wept!!!!! He always has position - he's the button!Also, get it right, it's SB that led, not UTG...

but worst case 1/4 of the pot with a decent draw at another 1/4, maybe even a half)..

No, worst case ¹/₈, with no draw for any more.Ironic that you say the forum has little 'meaningful' input, when your posts have been the most meaningless....

[checkymcfold 0]

i kinda think this hand is more read-dependent than others have seemed to. position is lovely, but most of its value is that you get to define the closing action on the flop and scoop pots with really really big bets.if the SB will lead the pot with A2 and a crap low draw, then i am content to get it all in on the flop. you have a good chance of folding a naked A3 and locking up half of the low with a wicked shot to do so. you could easily be freerolling for the high on a LOT of turn cards, but to do that you'd have to knock out another low draw without your bonus wrap/counterfeit protection on the flop.if he'd only lead with a boat, then i think this is a fold unless you are really certain that you're going for a full half of the pot with your protected low draw.if the SB is likely leading AA2x, then whoa, we're in good shape since he can't boat up often at all.as for the cold callers on the flop, it depends largely on what you think they'll do if you repot. if you're confident that they will fold a naked A3 or naked deuce, then i like repotting a lot more.the problem with calling, as asohang has implied, is that we have a drawing hand that could go from really good to really bad if the turn bricks, and with the stack sizes relative to the pot, we're not making a super costly move by deciding to get in or get out on the flop. our hand is surprisingly strong equity-wise against a2xx, and really only gets bad if we allow another A3 to come along with us. we have a very good chance to get a cold-calling A3 to fold on the flop, and could also conceivably fold an A2 hand with a pot bet and scoop an already-sizeable pot.

[goose 0]

I can - calling in this spot. That's why i fold. But a raise may cause a weak-tight CO to fold his low draw, or if he calls, he may be counterfeited(we can't be counterfeited). Or maybe cause any player to fold a hand which might have boated and split with our wheel. We have no further pot-manipulation to make, and a raise allows us to play our low(strictly to hit low) for the last 2 cards - anywhere between 50%-85% - with a likely value being 60%. Can you actually give some reason to your thoughts or is it just a random opinion??Note that no-one else really said anything, but your 3 posts in this thread have been dubious to say the least. First you say something about the O8 forum not having much 'meaningful input'.Then in your next post, you waffle on about:care to explain why there'd likely be no bet in front - not saying there will be, just want to know why you assume this?Jesus wept!!!!! He always has position - he's the button!Also, get it right, it's SB that led, not UTG...No, worst case ¹/₈, with no draw for any more.Ironic that you say the forum has little 'meaningful' input, when your posts have been the most meaningless....

Strat isn't the place for flaming, I'd suggest general. There's no need to get personal, or insult my prior posts, I simply think raising is a bad play. I believe, if you read my previous posts, I made it clear I'm not very experienced at these limits, and that my contribution was more to spark debate (not flames) than it was to give concrete advice.Also, I didn't say there wasn't any meaningful input, I said the strat forums have changed since akishore was last here, if he's the same guy I remember. I wasn't insulting anybody here, I'm just saying that a lot of the guys who used to frequent these forums don't (or not as much) anymore, and that guys who still do tend to spend more time other places, or like KDawg, are mods... it wasn't a hit at you, or anyone else who does post here, it was a comment on his surprise at the lack of response to his post.I think raising is terrible because SB is going to take your raise as an opportunity to re-raise and isolate most likely, creating a monster pot you don't want to get involved in without seeing a turn card. I can hardly see the SB simply calling your raise with two players to go. Forget what I said about checking, I misread Aki's position, which I could explain, but it would take a lot of effort, so just say I was wrong about that. I still think raising is terrible, however, although I don't disagree with folding. I think it's call/fold situation.

[ahosang 0]

Strat isn't the place for flaming, I'd suggest general. There's no need to get personal, or insult my prior posts, I simply think raising is a bad play.

Ok, well I'll be nice - I very rarely flame. I'm annoyed about your input though - your posts aren't being 'insulted'. They're being critiqued. This is to be expected, and i welcome any critique of mine(you critiqued mine with no explanation).

I believe, if you read my previous posts, I made it clear I'm not very experienced at these limits, and that my contribution was more to spark debate (not flames) than it was to give concrete advice.

Fine, but this isn't about limits - and debate has to be backed up with reason(that's how the Strat forums willl improve)

Also, I didn't say there wasn't any meaningful input, I said the strat forums have changed since akishore was last here, if he's the same guy I remember. I wasn't insulting anybody here, .....it was a comment on his surprise at the lack of response to his post.

Understood, and I apologise for misconstruing the use of 'meaningless'. You had explained in a later post. Btw, O8 is better than it was 1 year ago. There are posters here that give good O8 discussion.

I think raising is terrible because SB is going to take your raise as an opportunity to re-raise and isolate most likely, creating a monster pot you don't want to get involved in without seeing a turn card. I can hardly see the SB simply calling your raise with two players to go.

This isn't a flame, but again you're ignoring the facts of the matter. A raise by us now will have everyone effectively all-in!Furthermore, 'seeing a turn' is not a good concept to generally adopt in PL. There are times of course when stack sizes, board texture, implied odds etc will make that the best play, but this is not one of them.

[goose 0]

good post, though I still don't understand why we don't want to see a turn card, and would rather get it all in than call (putting aside that folding might be the best option) ?

[ahosang 0]

good post, though I still don't understand why we don't want to see a turn card, and would rather get it all in than call (putting aside that folding might be the best option) ?

A lot of it has been explained in my other posts. There's no card that comes on the turn that gives us a particularly better situation than we have now. The other players also get to 'see the turn' as well, you know. Tell me exactly why you want to 'see the turn'??Stack sizes are dictating this as well. If each player had $2000 left, it would be different.