I Check Raise The Flop From The Blinds.

[Bubba83 0]

$100NL on UltimateBet (8 handed, 10max)Stack Sizes:Hero has $76Villain has $82Pre-flop: (8 players) Hero is BB with 8 8 3 folds, MP2 raises to $3.50, 3 folds, Hero calls.Flop: 9 7 6 ($7.50, 2 players)Hero checks, MP2 bets $6, Hero raises to $16, MP2 calls.Turn: Q ($39.50, 2 players)Hero ???Read on villain is TAG who will c-bet everything. Is the check-raise on the flop standard? What do we do now on the turn?

[coremiller 0]

these are tricky spots. i run into these all the time and they give me trouble.because the villian is TAG, we can assume the flop missed him. i can't imagine him holding anything with a card below a 10, except maybe 99. so probably he either has overcards or an overpair. of the two, i'd lean toward the former. an aggressive player will often raise again on such a draw-heavy board, since lots of people check-raise with draws. although sometimes he'll smooth-call with a pair and reevaluate.usually should lead the turn. even against an overpair you have 10 outs, and i think you have significant fold equity here, since the board is scary. the main problem is the stack sizes. any bet of more than half the pot basically pot-commits you. for example, if you bet $25, you only have $31 left, and if he pushes you'd be getting about 4:1 and you'd probably have to call. bet any less than that, and your bet looks like a blocking bet or an i-check-raised-with-nothing-but-i-dont-want-to-look-weak-so-i'll-bet-again bet.given that, i don't think pushing is bad here if you think the villian can lay down 1010/JJ/KK. one way to think about this - if you had, say, two pair or a set, what would you do here? then do that. even if you get called, you have outs, if all your money is going in anyway, then it's better to put him to the tough decision than to allow him to put you to the tough decision.if you think pushing here screams "draw", then you should probably check and reevaluate after his action.on a big-picture level, you may want to wait to challenge his c-bets until you're both more deep-stacked or you have position, although, given your draw on the flop here, i'd probably c/r this too.

[Bubba83 0]

I think pushing sucks. If I bet the same amount I'd bet with two pair or a set, I'd be betting the trouble number, around $25-30.

[RiscaRod 0]

I would check again, you have put yourself in a nice position to give yourself a free card. If you check then your opponent may well check behind you seeing as you check raised him on the flop.Therefore if he does bet after you check on the turn, you can be fairly sure that your opponent has a decent hand. It is unlikely he will attempt another bluff on the turn considering the way the hand has already played out.So check, fold to a raise.

[MightyLouse 0]

I would check again, you have put yourself in a nice position to give yourself a free card. If you check then your opponent may well check behind you seeing as you check raised him on the flop.Therefore if he does bet after you check on the turn, you can be fairly sure that your opponent has a decent hand. It is unlikely he will attempt another bluff on the turn considering the way the hand has already played out.So check, fold to a raise.

This line sucks, assuming you mean fold to a bet. We have an open ender and a middling pair. Plus, our FE is great. Fire again at the turn.

[Bubba83 0]

I generally agree that we should bet something on the turn, but if you agree with betting something, how much? That's the real question.

[coremiller 0]

I think pushing sucks. If I bet the same amount I'd bet with two pair or a set, I'd be betting the trouble number, around $25-30.

i agree that pushing isn't great, but none of the other options are great either. if you bet, you have to bet at least $20, and then you're pretty much committed if he raises, and when he raises you're usually beat. if you bet $20 and he calls and you whiff the river, then you have another tricky decision OOP. and checking is bad for reasons others have mentioned.so, pros and cons: the benefit of pushing is that a) it puts maximum pressure on our opponent to make the decision, and could make him fold the best hand b ) if you bet anything, all your money is probably going in anyway, c) it charges a hand like AhKh to draw out on you, d) it eliminates any difficulties with tricky river play and negates the villian's positional advantage, and e) even if called, you have plenty of outs against the villian's range. the downside of pushing is a) it's a suspicious overbet that's probably not what you would do if you really had a big hand like a set, b ) you lose some value from hands you have beat (like heart draws), c) you're probably only getting called when you're behind.given all this, i like pushing better than betting smaller. but i'm not completely convinced. anyone have a good case for why to bet smaller?

[Money022 0]

I could make a strong case for smashing your nuts with a hammer. Other than that, I have no clue.

[coremiller 0]

I could make a strong case for smashing your nuts with a hammer. Other than that, I have no clue.

hey, why the vitriol? wtf was the point of this? if you have something meaningful to contribute then do so. otherwise, shut up. random flaming just wastes everyone's time.

[Bubba83 0]

Moving in seems like we're handing our opponent money a lot of the time.What about a check/call line on the turn where we're only calling if he bets 1/2 pot or less?

[myenemy 0]

I could make a strong case for smashing your nuts with a hammer. Other than that, I have no clue.

I really think he is commenting on the hand....I dont like the CR given the stacks. You're getting 25% of your chips in on a semi-B. And if villain calls, can you really give him AK? What's he calling with that he's folding for $20-25? Hearts?Crappy as it is I think I check hoping for a free draw and give up to a bet more than $15.

[No_Neck 0]

don't check raise the flop, lead out. The problem with the check raise is it really bloats the pot and makes things hard to play. You only have a pair of 8s right now.As played I lead for $25 and fold to a push. The problem with the check raise is that you have to lead no matter what on the turn and it can turn into a big pot with a meh hand.

[No_Neck 0]

EDIT: I suck at posting.

[coremiller 0]

don't check raise the flop, lead out. The problem with the check raise is it really bloats the pot and makes things hard to play. You only have a pair of 8s right now.As played I lead for $25 and fold to a push. The problem with the check raise is that you have to lead no matter what on the turn and it can turn into a big pot with a meh hand.

but if you bet $25 you can't fold to a push. you'd only have $31 left behind to call in a $123 pot. Villian is TAG in MP2 at a full-ring table - he very rarely has anything that connected with this board. tight players aren't raising there with 10-8 or 8-5, which are the only hands that have us crushed. occassionally he has a set, but not too often. this looks to me like 1010+, or a big heart draw, or less often AK just floating. against a heart draw we're ahead, and against the others we have 8-10 outs. getting 4:1 i think we would have to call. which is why i think it's either check or push.good point though that all this could be avoided by leading the flop instead of check-raising. i think your line there is better.

[No_Neck 0]

but if you bet $25 you can't fold to a push. you'd only have $31 left behind to call in a $123 pot. Villian is TAG in MP2 at a full-ring table - he very rarely has anything that connected with this board. tight players aren't raising there with 10-8 or 8-5, which are the only hands that have us crushed. occassionally he has a set, but not too often. this looks to me like 1010+, or a big heart draw, or less often AK just floating. against a heart draw we're ahead, and against the others we have 8-10 outs. getting 4:1 i think we would have to call. which is why i think it's either check or push.good point though that all this could be avoided by leading the flop instead of check-raising. i think your line there is better.

good point, I missed that. check and hope to see the river.

[Bubba83 0]

The reason I check raised was because he'd c-bet any flop and I thought I had the best hand. It does leave me in a bad situation for the turn when he calls, especially if a face card or ace falls. I think a check raise on the flop against an opponent like this might be better if I flop top pair on like a K 10 5 board than hitting top pair or middle pair on a low-mid board. Leading the flop would have been better for sure, but people make mistakes when they play, and I made one on the flop, so we still have to play the rest of the hand through either way. I haven't really heard any suggestions that have good logic behind them for how to play the turn. Maybe there is no good line for us on the turn and we should just realize our mistake on the flop and check/fold the turn if the odds aren't there to draw to our 10 outs.

[lostless 0]

don't check raise the flop, lead out. The problem with the check raise is it really bloats the pot and makes things hard to play. You only have a pair of 8s right now.

What do we do if he raises the flop on us?I think we lead the turn again if he calls. This is really a read dependent hand.

[silkyjonson 1]

bet 1/2 - 3/4 the pot here and fold to a re-raise, many players will take one off for the min raise with AK, AQ JT so I like betting one more time and if your called I would c-fold the river if you dont improve depending on read, if raised lean towards mucking the hand. But if you check the turn your setting the guy up to make a play at you, once you have taken the lead keep it, if not you are going to call a pot sized bet on the turn with no clue where the guy is at.

[silkyjonson 1]

I dont mind calling the flop here either, then seeing what the guy does on the turn. This line keeps the pot small and managable, u still have a viable hand with an open ender and 2nd pair, your read on the flop really is crucial to this hand.