Mtts, Coinflips, And Bad Players

[gmanshade 0]

I busted out of the 8pm (or 8:30) $5 mtt on stars last night. Two key hands cost me all my chips. with average stack of 30k i had 45k when the following hand came up. blinds 400/800 loose player utg+1 makes it 3k and i reraise to 9k with AK. he waits a little while and pushes allin. now i absolutely know it is a coinflip. i call, he has 1010 and he flops a set. i am crippled down to 3k.i double the next hand with 1010 and somehow manage to build my stack all the way up to 120k. with 27 players left i am sitting in 12th, with the average stack around 90k. first in this tournament pays $1600 and a lot of the players left are horrendously bad. then the following hand comes up: a player who had doubled through a couple hands earlier (button raises to 4x bb, this guy moves allin from BB, button calls and shows AJ; this guy has 107 and catches a 7) is first to act, and with blinds at 2k/4k he makes it 12k. i am right next to him with QQ and i make it 32k. he thinks, and pushes. i call, he shows AK and flops a K. now i am again crippled and left with 18k. a couple hands later i am allin with 22 against two callers (KJ, AJ) obv K on the river and i'm out. in both of these hands i really feel that the other person's bad play forced me to play a coinflip. in both situations i don't see how i can fold preflop, since neither player is in any way tricky; but if they simply call and see the flop i can get away from the hand. I literally was not all-in and called one time this entire tournament--i was making small bets, pushing opponents off hands, and moving on. But I think it is absolutely true that the bad play of other players in an MTT can force you to gamble and take away the skill edge. any thoughts?

[BWToth 0]

As for the first hand I don't know why you felt 'forced' to call if you were 'certain' it was a coinflip, you had plenty of chips, why risk most all of them at that point on a 50/50, especially if you think these players are so horrible, wait for a better spot.As for the QQ hand, why re-raise?, see a flop, force him to make a mistake. You are the one that forced yourself into the coinflip, espescially if you knew you had to call if he pushed to your re-raise.and...bbfidts, right. none of them were bad beast though really, more like...'go whine somewhere else'

[ForRealDD 0]

With horrendous play as you stated, you can try not getting it all in preflop, other than last resort. Smooth calling preflop would be one option, and taking a look at the flop, and evaluate the hand. If you can smooth call pf, and still have an avg stack if you have to fold post flop, it's not terrible. Wait for a better spot is an option. AK might look like the perfect spot, but if you could fold, lose the 9k and take pots preflop from lp you would likely be better off not having to race for your stack at such a late stage of the tournament. Stay out of big pots with equal or bigger stacks. Really not enough info here to give sound advice, just try not getting excited when you have AK behind an utg raiser.

[gmanshade 0]

As for the first hand I don't know why you felt 'forced' to call if you were 'certain' it was a coinflip, you had plenty of chips, why risk most all of them at that point on a 50/50, especially if you think these players are so horrible, wait for a better spot.As for the QQ hand, why re-raise?, see a flop, force him to make a mistake. You are the one that forced yourself into the coinflip, espescially if you knew you had to call if he pushed to your re-raise.and...bbfidts, right. none of them were bad beast though really, more like...'go whine somewhere else'

it is absurd that you would say this. in both cases i raised more than 10% of my stack preflop; i don't want the player to go allin, but if he does and there is 20-40% of my stack sitting out there how can i turn down a coinflip?i would never raise allin with 1010 b/c i could easily have jj, qq, kk, or aa and have him dominated.the ak play is a little different but he can easily flat call and see a flop (he would still have an average stak if the flop was all low cards).

[ForRealDD 0]

it is absurd that you would say this. in both cases i raised about 10% of my stack preflop; i don't want the player to go allin, but if he does and there is 20% of my stack sitting out there how can i turn down a coinflip?i would never raise allin with 1010 b/c i could easily have jj, qq, kk, or aa and have him dominated.the ak play is a little different but he can easily flat call and see a flop (he would still have an average stak if the flop was all low cards).

I think your mistake with the AK hand was your reraise. You either shove or flat call his raise. Re-raising to 9k, leaves you far too vunerable.

[gmanshade 0]

As for the first hand I don't know why you felt 'forced' to call if you were 'certain' it was a coinflip, you had plenty of chips, why risk most all of them at that point on a 50/50, especially if you think these players are so horrible, wait for a better spot.As for the QQ hand, why re-raise?, see a flop, force him to make a mistake. You are the one that forced yourself into the coinflip, espescially if you knew you had to call if he pushed to your re-raise.and...bbfidts, right. none of them were bad beast though really, more like...'go whine somewhere else'

don't reply to this thread if you are one of the fishes that i am talking about. i want to hear from quality mtt players.

[navybuttons 16]

so no chance of you not being scummy?BAN!

[TwoFourOffsuit 0]

Shoulda called the LAGs' raises with both hands. The 3rd hand isn't an issue if not for your play on the first two.The main purpose of a preflop raise is to kick out the marginal hands, and the LAGs in both cases did the heavy lifting for you, plus you had position on them both, so there was no reason to re-raise. On the 1st flop, when he flopped his 10 set, he likely would've bet huge, and you probably would've been able to read it and fold with minimal loss.On the 2nd flop, the flop would've missed you, he would've bet, and you could have again folded with minimal loss. Instead, you fell in love with your pocket and let yourself get trapped into a chip pissing contest, and you busted yourself. They didn't force you into anything: you just made poor betting decisions.Don't fall in love with power hands preflop or when the flop misses you, learn how to rope a dope preflop aggression, and don't reward a LAG's overbetting of big hands.

[ForRealDD 0]

On the 1st flop, when he flopped his 10 set, he would've bet huge,

A bad LAG player is not betting this flop more than a minbet, if anything at all. Which would tell you to check fold.

[the_stein 0]

don't reply to this thread if you are one of the fishes that i am talking about. i want to hear from quality mtt players.

actually maybe you are the fish because all the advice given was correct, you forced the coinflips

[DB10-2 0]

don't reply to this thread if you are one of the fishes that i am talking about. i want to hear from quality mtt players.

you're joking, right?

[TwoFourOffsuit 0]

A bad LAG also pushes in large or calls a large bet when the flop misses- oh wait.

[dtblizz 0]

it is absurd that you would say this. in both cases i raised more than 10% of my stack preflop; i don't want the player to go allin, but if he does and there is 20-40% of my stack sitting out there how can i turn down a coinflip?i would never raise allin with 1010 b/c i could easily have jj, qq, kk, or aa and have him dominated.the ak play is a little different but he can easily flat call and see a flop (he would still have an average stak if the flop was all low cards).

It would be idiotic for your opponents to call a re-raise from out of position with a smaller stack than you if your raise was 20-40% of your own stack. That means it is 50%+ of their stack. The correct play is all in or fold. Don't reraise with a hand like AK if you are going to whine when someone re-raises all in with a pkt pair. You also did not indicate the table's perception of your play.

[ForRealDD 0]

A bad LAG also pushes in large or calls a large bet when the flop misses- oh wait.

I don't get it...

[JaysForLife 0]

You played all the hands fine, i like the raises in both spots. Losing huge coinflips late in MTTs is something that everyone has experienced. Winning those coinflips will put you in a great spot to win which is what you want to be thinking about. imo theres not much you couldve done differently in the hands you discussed

[gmanshade 0]

It would be idiotic for your opponents to call a re-raise from out of position with a smaller stack than you if your raise was 20-40% of your own stack. That means it is 50%+ of their stack. The correct play is all in or fold. Don't reraise with a hand like AK if you are going to whine when someone re-raises all in with a pkt pair. You also did not indicate the table's perception of your play.

i was playing 20% of hands, never reraising preflop and making small plays at the pot after the flop.

[gmanshade 0]

actually maybe you are the fish because all the advice given was correct, you forced the coinflips

how do you play these hands?

[SilentButDeadly3 0]

I agree, u forced the flips. Flat call pre with QQ and AK.

[Dogpatch 2]

On the first hand you didn't give villain's stack size. Pushing TT could've been the correct play for him.As a general rule, I don't re-raise with AK. But that is totally situational.

[grocery_mony 9]

sometimes when i have ak and have a decent stack i just call a raise and if i miss the flop and the raiser puts in a big bet i just fold after the flop. how can you call the person with ak v your qq a bad player when yopu were willing to call for a big chunk of your stack earlier with ak?

[gmanshade 0]

On the first hand you didn't give villain's stack size. Pushing TT could've been the correct play for him.As a general rule, I don't re-raise with AK. But that is totally situational.

he had slightly less than me (i was left with 3k after the hand).

[ForRealDD 0]

On the first hand you didn't give villain's stack size.

Looks like villan had 42k to his 45k .

[BWToth 0]

don't reply to this thread if you are one of the fishes that i am talking about. i want to hear from quality mtt players.

Funny how people ask for advice, but if they don't hear what they want they resort to the above.I apologize, what I meant to say was "I'm sorry, you are the best player ever, you had no choice in those hands and you just got SEVERLY unlucky even though you played each hand outstanding. You deserve to get your money in 50/50 and win everytime thus enabling you to win every tournament you enter and TP/MM"What was i thinking.

[gmanshade 0]

sometimes when i have ak and have a decent stack i just call a raise and if i miss the flop and the raiser puts in a big bet i just fold after the flop. how can you call the person with ak v your qq a bad player when yopu were willing to call for a big chunk of your stack earlier with ak?

i had no choice but to call--he moved in forcing me to play the coinflip. i'm surprised so many people are saying i should flat call. in both of these situations there were 4-6 people left to act after me, and if i flat call this small raise then they can easily limp behind me. i reraised with AK thinking he would lay down Ax, and any small pair; and if he called with a small pair i might be able to take the pot away on the flop. on the the QQ hand, there were 6 people left to act after me--if i smooth call 3xBB i am guaranteed to have people acting after me. How can I possibly not raise there?

[ForRealDD 0]

i had no choice but to call--he moved in forcing me to play the coinflip. i'm surprised so many people are saying i should flat call. in both of these situations there were 4-6 people left to act after me, and if i flat call this small raise then they can easily limp behind me. i reraised with AK thinking he would lay down Ax, and any small pair; and if he called with a small pair i might be able to take the pot away on the flop. on the the QQ hand, there were 6 people left to act after me--if i smooth call 3xBB i am guaranteed to have people acting after me. How can I possibly not raise there?

*Takes deep breath before long schpiel(sp?)* .............nevermind....