Economic Justice

[BWToth 0]

You wanted my take on this BW so I will give it to you, but it's not going to be as pie in the sky as most of you guys seem to be. One thing that America has that I love is you really can be anything you want- but you gotta want it. Not many want it enough. That's the reality. So, in answer to the question I believe this life is what you make of it,there should be no system in place that shifts the balance,because the balance is neccesary to ensure power that means something. If we just handed Joe Schmoe 10 million, or even 1 what would happen? Chances are he would blow it- lottery winners prove this again and again. They do little to nothing to grow it into actual wealth, to build empires.

Your niavity shines through once again lois.

[semaj550 0]

Your niavity shines through once again lois.

He has a point though. I won't say that everyone currently does have equal opportunity but there is a very real problem with people being willing to do the required work.I come from a pretty average upper-middle class family. It wasn't difficult for me to have access to post-secondary education (university). It wasn't difficult for a lot of people that I know. However, not all of us graduated. I got my degree and people with equal opportunity to didn't because they couldn't do the 4 years of difficult study required. It's pretty likely that I'll have better access to better jobs and more financial security as a result. It comes partly from the opportunity I had and partly from the hard work that I did (and do).I think that Lois' point is that even given the opportunity there are people who just won't do the work.

[BWToth 0]

He has a point though. I won't say that everyone currently does have equal opportunity but there is a very real problem with people being willing to do the required work.I come from a pretty average upper-middle class family. It wasn't difficult for me to have access to post-secondary education (university). It wasn't difficult for a lot of people that I know. However, not all of us graduated. I got my degree and people with equal opportunity to didn't because they couldn't do the 4 years of difficult study required. It's pretty likely that I'll have better access to better jobs and more financial security as a result. It comes partly from the opportunity I had and partly from the hard work that I did (and do).I think that Lois' point is that even given the opportunity there are people who just won't do the work.

If they choose not to do the work they lose the opportunity, but the point is that they have the opportunity, it doesn't imply that they can't lose it. I'm not talking about giving joe blo 1 million dollars to spend how he likes, i'm talking about things like govt grants that can only be used for something like college tuition/technical schooling with a min GPA requirement or if you drop out you lose the money etc. Or welfare to work programs so people can just sit on their butt and collect a check every month. Obviously there would tight guidelines for when and how money is allocated and for what purpose. Heck, a new govt. agency whose sole purpose was dealing with this issue would create thousands of jobs in and of itself.In Lois's post he says at one point "it's too late for america, The wealth is already distributed." and at another point "One thing that America has that I love is you really can be anything you want- but you gotta want it." Which is it Lois?He is contradicting himself here, and even by themselves, both of those two statments are completely false.

[semaj550 0]

If they choose not to do the work they lose the opportunity, but the point is that they have the opportunity, it doesn't imply that they can't lose it. I'm not talking about giving joe blo 1 million dollars to spend how he likes, i'm talking about things like govt grants that can only be used for something like college tuition/technical schooling with a min GPA requirement or if you drop out you lose the money etc. Or welfare to work programs so people can just sit on their butt and collect a check every month. Obviously there would tight guidelines for when and how money is allocated and for what purpose. Heck, a new govt. agency whose sole purpose was dealing with this issue would create thousands of jobs in and of itself.In Lois's post he says at one point "it's too late for america, The wealth is already distributed." and at another point "One thing that America has that I love is you really can be anything you want- but you gotta want it." Which is it Lois?He is contradicting himself here, and even by themselves, both of those two statments are completely false.

I'll certainly admit your arguments, but I'm Canadian so we're all about that anyway. :DIf we could develop a workable system to ensure such distribution without removing the incentive for a hard day's work I would be all for it. It's a very complex task and Lois might be right, it may already be too late for America given the disparity between rich and poor.I definately think we need to work toward it though. And in the absense of government programs, there are contributions and efforts which can be made at the indidividual level.

[BWToth 0]

I'll certainly admit your arguments, but I'm Canadian so we're all about that anyway. :DIf we could develop a workable system to ensure such distribution without removing the incentive for a hard day's work I would be all for it. It's a very complex task and Lois might be right, it may already be too late for America given the disparity between rich and poor.I definately think we need to work toward it though. And in the absense of government programs, there are contributions and efforts which can be made at the indidividual level.

I'd be all for a genocide of all people in the US with an IQ below 110. Or at least force them all to move to Texas or something.

[DonkSlayer 1]

I'd be all for a genocide of all people in the US with an IQ below 110. Or at least force them all to move to Texas or something.

They're already there. I didn't really mean that, but it just begged to be said.

[Loismustdie 0]

If they choose not to do the work they lose the opportunity, but the point is that they have the opportunity, it doesn't imply that they can't lose it. I'm not talking about giving joe blo 1 million dollars to spend how he likes, i'm talking about things like govt grants that can only be used for something like college tuition/technical schooling with a min GPA requirement or if you drop out you lose the money etc. Or welfare to work programs so people can just sit on their butt and collect a check every month. Obviously there would tight guidelines for when and how money is allocated and for what purpose. Heck, a new govt. agency whose sole purpose was dealing with this issue would create thousands of jobs in and of itself.In Lois's post he says at one point "it's too late for america, The wealth is already distributed." and at another point "One thing that America has that I love is you really can be anything you want- but you gotta want it." Which is it Lois?He is contradicting himself here, and even by themselves, both of those two statments are completely false.

What part didn't you understand- and incidentally, this is why I love talking to you,you always have some issue that you think exists but doesn't. In Lois's post he says at one point "it's too late for america, The wealth is already distributed." and at another point "One thing that America has that I love is you really can be anything you want- but you gotta want it." Which is it Lois? The wealth is already distributed- that's obvious. It IS,and they aren't rushing to give it back, at least not in the way you would like to see. Apparently, the people with the money see that it makes no sense to just give it away. I agree with them. You can be anything you want- you can even be wealthy if you get lucky and use your head about it once you get there. This argument is really about entitlement.. You gave a list of things that you believe people are entitled to and incidentally, those things are available, to anybody. They just gotta go apply. I know this girl, well, I knew this girl years ago- she had a kid, and couldn't hold a job. It was always everybody elses fault, bad boss, to demanding, whatever. She was on and off of welfare for years- she did the usual thing that you see, the stereotypical working the system, and complained the whole way- the lines were to long, to much paperwork, nobody understands how hard it is. What she didn't get, is that with 10% more initiative and 5% more willingness to compromise she could have easily been the person handing out the paper work for 12 bucks an hour- it's not much, but it's a start. A little more initiative and a little reliability and you're now directing the guy handing out the paperwork, and now you are making 15 an hour with paid benefits- and on and on up the ladder. All she had to do was focus on taking rather than asking- many people, for whatever reason, don't seem to make that connection. It's not a governments job or even a societies job to hold there hand. This is a land where anybody can go get it. This is a land where any couple, together, can easily have a household earning 100,000 dollars with just a willingness to work.

[BWToth 0]

"You can be anything you want- you can even be wealthy if you get lucky and use your head about it once you get there."This is false. "This is a land where anybody can go get it. This is a land where any couple, together, can easily have a household earning 100,000 dollars with just a willingness to work."This is false.I don't know where you get this ideas, you have some idealized conception of America that we are taught in the 3rd grade. Give me a list of jobs that pay $50,000 a year that an impoverished, non-high school educated, minority woman, with 4 kids can get. There aren't any.I don't know where you live, or what you have seen or heard about things, but certain groups of people are doomed from the start with no way out except aid from the govt. And I mean starting at the ground up, not just hand-outs, but from housing, to schools, to health care, to day care.It's the conservative minded people, like you, that believe it's 'unfair' for the wealthy to have to give up what they've 'earned' in the form of taxes or what have you that will go to the low income families because all they have to have is a little 'initiative' and 'determination' and 'all their dreams can come true'

[semaj550 0]

"You can be anything you want- you can even be wealthy if you get lucky and use your head about it once you get there."This is false. "This is a land where anybody can go get it. This is a land where any couple, together, can easily have a household earning 100,000 dollars with just a willingness to work."This is false.I don't know where you get this ideas, you have some idealized conception of America that we are taught in the 3rd grade. Give me a list of jobs that pay $50,000 a year that an impoverished, non-high school educated, minority woman, with 4 kids can get. There aren't any.I don't know where you live, or what you have seen or heard about things, but certain groups of people are doomed from the start with no way out except aid from the govt. And I mean starting at the ground up, not just hand-outs, but from housing, to schools, to health care, to day care.It's the conservative minded people, like you, that believe it's 'unfair' for the wealthy to have to give up what they've 'earned' in the form of taxes or what have you that will go to the low income families because all they have to have is a little 'initiative' and 'determination' and 'all their dreams can come true'

Geez, you almost sound Christian now.

[Loismustdie 0]

"You can be anything you want- you can even be wealthy if you get lucky and use your head about it once you get there."This is false. "This is a land where anybody can go get it. This is a land where any couple, together, can easily have a household earning 100,000 dollars with just a willingness to work."This is false.I don't know where you get this ideas, you have some idealized conception of America that we are taught in the 3rd grade. Give me a list of jobs that pay $50,000 a year that an impoverished, non-high school educated, minority woman, with 4 kids can get. There aren't any.I don't know where you live, or what you have seen or heard about things, but certain groups of people are doomed from the start with no way out except aid from the govt. And I mean starting at the ground up, not just hand-outs, but from housing, to schools, to health care, to day care.It's the conservative minded people, like you, that believe it's 'unfair' for the wealthy to have to give up what they've 'earned' in the form of taxes or what have you that will go to the low income families because all they have to have is a little 'initiative' and 'determination' and 'all their dreams can come true'

Define Impoverished. Get a G.E.D., apply for financial aid, which there is a buttload of,go to a community college, find someone else like you who wants to do the same thing, make a schedule, babysitting schedule so you both can work, apply for the assistance if you need it after working 40 hours and using that financial aid wisely and before you know it you will be on your way. Next excuse? Keep em coming. The person you talk of does exist, there is no denying that- but there are ways out of this obviously self-inflicted situation. Does there have to 4 kids involved? Seriously- why is there 4 kids involved again? Is it right that we have a percentage of welfare recipients that have more kids just because they will receive more dough? All I advocate is a little effort and the eradication of the mindset that says there is no other way, and look around you. My way of thinking is the prevailing line of thinking. I didn't say it was unfair to expect the rich to give it up- I said it was unrealistic, and a bad investment. I am also not against aid to people who need it.

[BWToth 0]

Define Impoverished. Get a G.E.D., apply for financial aid, which there is a buttload of, find someone else like you who wants to do the same thing, make a schedule, babysitting schedule so you both can work, apply for the assistance if you need it after working 40 hours and using that financial aid wisely and before you know it you will be on your way. Next excuse? Keep em coming. So assuming they get a GED what type of job are they going to get with a GED that pays $50,000 a year? The person you talk of does exist, there is no denying that- but there are ways out of this obviously self-inflicted situation. Does there have to 4 kids involved? Seriously- why is there 4 kids involved again? Is it right that we have a percentage of welfare recipients that have more kids just because they will receive more dough? All I advocate is a little effort and the eradication of the mindset that says there is no other way, and look around you. My way of thinking is the prevailing line of thinking. Explain how this is obviously self-inflicted? Becaus their parents were in this situation, and their parents before them? It's just like the wealthy, but the opposite. You're creating an idividualized situation, fine, they have 1 kid, are they not supposed to even do that? What do you mean yours in the prevailing mindset? Conservativism? Conservativism is one of the ways we got into this mess in the first place, and in case you hadn't heard, liberalism is making a comeback I didn't say it was unfair to expect the rich to give it up- I said it was unrealistic, and a bad investment. I am also not against aid to people who need it.Which is a better investment, the new yacht for the millionare, or 20 college education grants for inner-city youth? You say you're for helping people who are in need, but you are excluding certain groups, Why do yuo get to determine who is worthy of your charity and who isn't? All the problems you have with the methods are fixable, it may take time and 'effort' like you say, and in the end it won't help 100% of the people, but isn't helping any better than giving up and saying 'this is too hard to fix, there's nothing we can do about it'

[Loismustdie 0]

Define Impoverished. Get a G.E.D., apply for financial aid, which there is a buttload of, find someone else like you who wants to do the same thing, make a schedule, babysitting schedule so you both can work, apply for the assistance if you need it after working 40 hours and using that financial aid wisely and before you know it you will be on your way. Next excuse? Keep em coming. So assuming they get a GED what type of job are they going to get with a GED that pays $50,000 a year? The person you talk of does exist, there is no denying that- but there are ways out of this obviously self-inflicted situation. Does there have to 4 kids involved? Seriously- why is there 4 kids involved again? Is it right that we have a percentage of welfare recipients that have more kids just because they will receive more dough? All I advocate is a little effort and the eradication of the mindset that says there is no other way, and look around you. My way of thinking is the prevailing line of thinking. Explain how this is obviously self-inflicted? Becaus their parents were in this situation, and their parents before them? It's just like the wealthy, but the opposite. You're creating an idividualized situation, fine, they have 1 kid, are they not supposed to even do that? What do you mean yours in the prevailing mindset? Conservativism? Conservativism is one of the ways we got into this mess in the first place, and in case you hadn't heard, liberalism is making a comeback I didn't say it was unfair to expect the rich to give it up- I said it was unrealistic, and a bad investment. I am also not against aid to people who need it.Which is a better investment, the new yacht for the millionare, or 20 college education grants for inner-city youth? You say you're for helping people who are in need, but you are excluding certain groups, Why do yuo get to determine who is worthy of your charity and who isn't? All the problems you have with the methods are fixable, it may take time and 'effort' like you say, and in the end it won't help 100% of the people, but isn't helping any better than giving up and saying 'this is too hard to fix, there's nothing we can do about it'

Stop and think- the things that you push for are already in place, and the people that want it, go and get it. Anybody that wants an eduacation can get one. I said anybody can make 50,000 a year- I didn't say they were working one job. The key word is work. My mom had 5 kids. I don't want 5 kids. Oddly enough, I wasn't pulled into any sort of cycle. The cycle is an excuse used by many, from the poor to child molesters. The cycle only exists if you go along with it. Mine is the prevailing mindset. Liberalism may make a comeback, but that wouldn't make it prevailing at this time, would it? In that, it needs to make a comeback by your own admission.

[BWToth 0]

Stop and think- the things that you push for are already in place, and the people that want it, go and get it. Anybody that wants an eduacation can get one. I said anybody can make 50,000 a year- I didn't say they were working one job. The key word is work. My mom had 5 kids. I don't want 5 kids. Oddly enough, I wasn't pulled into any sort of cycle. The cycle is an excuse used by many, from the poor to child molesters. The cycle only exists if you go along with it. Mine is the prevailing mindset. Liberalism may make a comeback, but that wouldn't make it prevailing at this time, would it? In that, it needs to make a comeback by your own admission.

Huh?1. Are you aware of the disparity in the public school systems between middle class and up neighborhoods, and inner-city schools? HUGE, those children most definitely DO NOT have the same opportunity during their primary education years as someone who goes to school in a low income area. And it is 'your mindset''s agenda that is only making that problem worse...charter schools, and vouchers to take the smarter, non-minority kids out of bad schools and further isolate the poor, minorities.2. Regardless of whether or not their is a conscious decision to 'accept' one's current situation is irrelevant. Which one is more likely to continue in the cycle, the child who is born into it? or the child who has never known it to begin with? Of course people are responsible for their own decisions/actions/attitudes but do you not believe your environment and upbringing has a large affect on these decisions. It is a lot easier for a child to do his homework if is white upper-middle class mother is sitting beside him in the afternoon because she is able to be a stay at home mom, than the inner-city minority child who's mother is out working her 2nd or 3rd job so she can bring home her '$50,000' paycheck.3. Well, define prevailing...if by majority then liberals are currently in the majority, as evidenced by this past mid-term election. The semantics of it doesn't matter, I don't care what you call your mindset, or if it is popular or not, the bottom line is that it is the WRONG one to have.I'm not going to continue this argument with you if just continue to nit-pick individual situations instead of acknowledging the broad facts of the matter.

[pokers4gals2 0]

Sometimes it comes down to - if it doesn’t break you, you will come out stronger. I don’t hold to Maslow’s hierachy of needs theory. Many people who have not had the needs at bottom of his pyramid met still go on to achieve great things. Life isn’t fair, and never will be. But it is up to each and every one of us to try to bring together leadership and community to pull up those who have less and give all the opportunity to succeed.

[LongLiveYorke 38]

I don’t hold to Maslow’s hierachy of needs theory. Many people who have not had the needs at bottom of his pyramid met still go on to achieve great things.

Aren't the things on the bottom of his pyramid items like food, water, and air?So, uh, I disagree. There are very few people who went without food, water, and/or air and did great things.

[Loismustdie 0]

Huh?1. Are you aware of the disparity in the public school systems between middle class and up neighborhoods, and inner-city schools? HUGE, those children most definitely DO NOT have the same opportunity during their primary education years as someone who goes to school in a low income area. And it is 'your mindset''s agenda that is only making that problem worse...charter schools, and vouchers to take the smarter, non-minority kids out of bad schools and further isolate the poor, minorities.2. Regardless of whether or not their is a conscious decision to 'accept' one's current situation is irrelevant. Which one is more likely to continue in the cycle, the child who is born into it? or the child who has never known it to begin with? Of course people are responsible for their own decisions/actions/attitudes but do you not believe your environment and upbringing has a large affect on these decisions. It is a lot easier for a child to do his homework if is white upper-middle class mother is sitting beside him in the afternoon because she is able to be a stay at home mom, than the inner-city minority child who's mother is out working her 2nd or 3rd job so she can bring home her '$50,000' paycheck.3. Well, define prevailing...if by majority then liberals are currently in the majority, as evidenced by this past mid-term election. The semantics of it doesn't matter, I don't care what you call your mindset, or if it is popular or not, the bottom line is that it is the WRONG one to have.I'm not going to continue this argument with you if just continue to nit-pick individual situations instead of acknowledging the broad facts of the matter.

Agreed- are school system needs help. However, once you get past high school there is no end to the help you can get, and being poor just makes it all the easier to obtain that help for free with little to no strings attached. For the most part though, your argumement is crap. Really. There is no other way to put it. 1st of all, if as a parent you recognize that the area you live in is bad, move. Seriously, it's that simple. Live somewhere else. Also, in my scenario the mother works to get a better job through eduacation, which is readily available, not to mention free childcare at many schools. Find a friend who wants the same thing, work together. It's doable- they just have to want it. Incidentally, if you really think that kids who are more well off are any less of an ******* or easier to deal with, think again. Rebellion, drugs, alcohol, promiscuity, teen pregnancy, is rampant whether parents are succesful or not. That isn't exclusive to the poor, not by a long shot. I think the worst possible thing we can do is just make it a freeride. The absolute worst thing.

[Loismustdie 0]

Aren't the things on the bottom of his pyramid items like food, water, and air?So, uh, I disagree. There are very few people who went without food, water, and/or air and did great things.

Hey, now. BWToth specifically said no nit picking. Which is an interesting thing to say by the way, considering that is done here 24/7 in every biblical conversation.

[pokers4gals2 0]

Aren't the things on the bottom of his pyramid items like food, water, and air?So, uh, I disagree. There are very few people who went without food, water, and/or air and did great things.

I agree these should be met, but for many it is not. I was trying to make a point that life isn't fair, and if things are going to get better we have the responsibility to elect leaders, and take part in our community to change them. I write grants on my own time to help sick children. This is a decision I made to make a difference. Everyone can take the time to use their talents to help in their own way if they take the initiative. After seeing disease ravage sweet little children, I came to the above said conclusion that life isn't fair. And as for hunger - families and children are fighting it everyday, but yet bits of light come out of these horrible situations and they go on to change the circumstances they grew up in to make it better for others. It is the spirit of a person (I am not talking religiously, but an inner light) that makes them climb to greatness. This is from http://www.fhfh.org/hunger.html. Despite a booming economy, a stock market that reached historic heights in the last decade and reports of welfare reform success, wages for many Americans have simply not risen fast enough to cover the increased cost of living. To these Americans, food has become an unaffordable luxury. In the past year, of those people seeking emergency food relief, 35% - that's more than 1 in 3 - had to choose between paying their rent and buying food. Based on the Census Bureau survey, USDA estimates that in 2000, 10.5 million U.S. households were food insecure, meaning that they did not have access to enough food to meet their basic needs. About 33 million people lived in these households, including 20 million adults and 13 million children. Hunger in America has, and continues to be, a real problem for a significant part of our population. Hunger In America: Hard Facts More than one-third (38%) of families leaving welfare reported that they ran out of food and did not have money for more. (Urban Institute - 2001) Approximately 7 million different people receive assistance in any given week (America's Second Harvest - 2001) 96,000,000,000 pounds of food is thrown away each year by the Food Service Industry. (Source: FoodChain ) 33.6 million people including almost 13 million children live in households that experience hunger or the risk of hunger. This represents approximately one in ten households in the United States (10.7 percent). (Bread for the World Institute - 2002) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- According to the U.S. Census Bureau, one in five children (approximately 15 million) in our nation live at or below the poverty line. In 1997, nearly two-thirds of poor young children lived in working families and young child poverty is growing fastest in the suburbs. In total, an alarming 22% of young children in America live in poverty.Children who are denied an adequate diet are at a greater risk than other low income children of not reaching their full potential as individuals. Children who are undernourished have trouble concentrating and bonding with other children and are more likely to suffer illnesses that force them to be absent from school. They consistently perform more poorly on standardized tests. Poor performance early in school is a major risk factor for dropping out of school in later years. According to labor statistics, educational attainment is perhaps the greatest indicator of job and income mobility, so the impact of childhood hunger can be lifelong. Studies have also shown time and time again that even mildly undernourished children may potentially suffer abnormal brain, cognitive, and psychological impairment that, if not corrected, can be irreversible. Children And Hunger: Hard Facts 10.5 percent of all U.S. households, representing 20 million adults and 13 million children, were "food insecure" because of lack of resources (U.S. Census Bureau survey -2000) Over 9 million children are the recipients of food from either a pantry, kitchen or shelter. (America's Second Harvest - 2001) 22.2% of shelter clients indicated that their child/children was/were hungry at least once during the previous 12 months but couldn't afford more food. (America's Second Harvest - 2001) Between 2000 and 2001, requests for emergency food assistance increased by an average of 23% in American cities, with 54% of requests coming from families with children. (U.S. Conference of Mayors) --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[BWToth 0]

Agreed- are school system needs help. However, once you get past high school there is no end to the help you can get, and being poor just makes it all the easier to obtain that help for free with little to no strings attached. For the most part though, your argumement is crap. Really. There is no other way to put it. 1st of all, if as a parent you recognize that the area you live in is bad, move. Seriously, it's that simple. Live somewhere else. Also, in my scenario the mother works to get a better job through eduacation, which is readily available, not to mention free childcare at many schools. Find a friend who wants the same thing, work together. It's doable- they just have to want it. Incidentally, if you really think that kids who are more well off are any less of an ******* or easier to deal with, think again. Rebellion, drugs, alcohol, promiscuity, teen pregnancy, is rampant whether parents are succesful or not. That isn't exclusive to the poor, not by a long shot. I think the worst possible thing we can do is just make it a freeride. The absolute worst thing.

How do you get accepted to a college is you went to a crappy high school and with a c avg and an 800 SAT score?It's not easy for someone making minimum wage, or barely above to up and move into an upper-middle class neighborhood. The biggest problem you have is that your equating the fact that every person has the possibility to succeed as meaning they have economic justice. There is a big difference between something being 'doable' and something being 'easily' attainable. The whole point of economic justice is to create an equal playing field for all. It's not about whether middle class kids are angels and poverty stricken kids are devils. You can't even grasp what I'm saying. I'm done trying to explain it, because you are either too dumb to understand, or just saying these things to frustrate me, either way it's pointless.Not once have I ever mentioned giving people a 'free ride', ever.My arguments make sense, and are based on situations that exist in the real world, making them not 'crap', but good rebuttal anyways.You really are clueless as to what things are like for certain segments of the population out there. The only thing I am understanding that you are saying is that the fact that there is a remote possibility for everyone to succeed is enough to meet our moral obligation as a person/society/country. If that is the case, that doesn't sound like a very 'christian' attitude to me.If that is what you believe, how ist hat fair? Is it fair that some children are born into a situation where their chance of success is .00001 while others are born into situations where their chance of success is .999999? What did those in the .99999 do to deserve that difference?Even if a system could be put in to place where some people still had a .99999 chance of success but the minimum percent chance for success on the low end of the scale was .1 or .2 then a significant achievment has been reached.While the numbers for these things are irrelevant, if you belief the difference between the two extremes, in terms of chance of 'success' in life, is small, or small enough that nothing needs to be done about it, then you are still, just as you were 2 hours ago, completely in the WRONG.It is BECAUSE of people like you and the 'prevailing' mindset that conditions continue to remain as they are.

[Loismustdie 0]

I agree these should be met, but for many it is not. I was trying to make a point that life isn't fair, and if things are going to get better we have the responsibility to elect leaders, and take part in our community to change them. I write grants on my own time to help sick children. This is a decision I made to make a difference. Everyone can take the time to use their talents to help in their own way if they take the initiative. After seeing disease ravage sweet little children, I came to the above said conclusion that life isn't fair. And as for hunger - families and children are fighting it everyday, but yet bits of light come out of these horrible situations and they go on to change the circumstances they grew up in to make it better for others. It is the spirit of a person (I am not talking religiously, but an inner light) that makes them climb to greatness. This is from http://www.fhfh.org/hunger.html. Despite a booming economy, a stock market that reached historic heights in the last decade and reports of welfare reform success, wages for many Americans have simply not risen fast enough to cover the increased cost of living. To these Americans, food has become an unaffordable luxury. In the past year, of those people seeking emergency food relief, 35% - that's more than 1 in 3 - had to choose between paying their rent and buying food. Based on the Census Bureau survey, USDA estimates that in 2000, 10.5 million U.S. households were food insecure, meaning that they did not have access to enough food to meet their basic needs. About 33 million people lived in these households, including 20 million adults and 13 million children. Hunger in America has, and continues to be, a real problem for a significant part of our population. Hunger In America: Hard Facts More than one-third (38%) of families leaving welfare reported that they ran out of food and did not have money for more. (Urban Institute - 2001) Approximately 7 million different people receive assistance in any given week (America's Second Harvest - 2001) 96,000,000,000 pounds of food is thrown away each year by the Food Service Industry. (Source: FoodChain ) 33.6 million people including almost 13 million children live in households that experience hunger or the risk of hunger. This represents approximately one in ten households in the United States (10.7 percent). (Bread for the World Institute - 2002) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- According to the U.S. Census Bureau, one in five children (approximately 15 million) in our nation live at or below the poverty line. In 1997, nearly two-thirds of poor young children lived in working families and young child poverty is growing fastest in the suburbs. In total, an alarming 22% of young children in America live in poverty.Children who are denied an adequate diet are at a greater risk than other low income children of not reaching their full potential as individuals. Children who are undernourished have trouble concentrating and bonding with other children and are more likely to suffer illnesses that force them to be absent from school. They consistently perform more poorly on standardized tests. Poor performance early in school is a major risk factor for dropping out of school in later years. According to labor statistics, educational attainment is perhaps the greatest indicator of job and income mobility, so the impact of childhood hunger can be lifelong. Studies have also shown time and time again that even mildly undernourished children may potentially suffer abnormal brain, cognitive, and psychological impairment that, if not corrected, can be irreversible. Children And Hunger: Hard Facts 10.5 percent of all U.S. households, representing 20 million adults and 13 million children, were "food insecure" because of lack of resources (U.S. Census Bureau survey -2000) Over 9 million children are the recipients of food from either a pantry, kitchen or shelter. (America's Second Harvest - 2001) 22.2% of shelter clients indicated that their child/children was/were hungry at least once during the previous 12 months but couldn't afford more food. (America's Second Harvest - 2001) Between 2000 and 2001, requests for emergency food assistance increased by an average of 23% in American cities, with 54% of requests coming from families with children. (U.S. Conference of Mayors) --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I don't know how we got here. I thought we were talking about opportunity and redistributing wealth. Interesting numbers,though. I would argue that 10% really isn't that bad. In my mind that is evidence we are doing alright. Out of curiosity, does it mention how much of that 10% would be alright if a parent took on a second job? How many are even here legaly? That kind of thing.

[Loismustdie 0]

How do you get accepted to a college is you went to a crappy high school and with a c avg and an 800 SAT score?It's not easy for someone making minimum wage, or barely above to up and move into an upper-middle class neighborhood. The biggest problem you have is that your equating the fact that every person has the possibility to succeed as meaning they have economic justice. There is a big difference between something being 'doable' and something being 'easily' attainable. The whole point of economic justice is to create an equal playing field for all. It's not about whether middle class kids are angels and poverty stricken kids are devils. You can't even grasp what I'm saying. I'm done trying to explain it, because you are either too dumb to understand, or just saying these things to frustrate me, either way it's pointless.Not once have I ever mentioned giving people a 'free ride', ever.My arguments make sense, and are based on situations that exist in the real world, making them not 'crap', but good rebuttal anyways.You really are clueless as to what things are like for certain segments of the population out there. The only thing I am understanding that you are saying is that the fact that there is a remote possibility for everyone to succeed is enough to meet our moral obligation as a person/society/country. If that is the case, that doesn't sound like a very 'christian' attitude to me.If that is what you believe, how ist hat fair? Is it fair that some children are born into a situation where their chance of success is .00001 while others are born into situations where their chance of success is .999999? What did those in the .99999 do to deserve that difference?Even if a system could be put in to place where some people still had a .99999 chance of success but the minimum percent chance for success on the low end of the scale was .1 or .2 then a significant achievment has been reached.While the numbers for these things are irrelevant, if you belief the difference between the two extremes, in terms of chance of 'success' in life, is small, or small enough that nothing needs to be done about it, then you are still, just as you were 2 hours ago, completely in the WRONG.It is BECAUSE of people like you and the 'prevailing' mindset that conditions continue to remain as they are.

Anyone can go to community college with a G.E.D., they give you an aptitude test, find out where you are on the learning curve and from there you go to the Financial aid office and they hold your hand through the whole process. It really is that simple. There are the usual Pell Grants and student loans, which if you are poor can mean quite a bit of money,and then a binder full of things you can apply for. All I did is show that the playing field is equal if one is willing to do a little footwork. Against that, your arguments are lame and indeed crap. I don't see why you are so mad- you should be happy you are misinformed and wrong, and that people do have opportunity. My thing is that every argument you have made is irrelevant, because the things you speak of are not enough to hold one back, unless one is looking for excuses to be held back. You also keep talking about minimum wage jobs- who pays minimum wage anymore? Do you know of anyone? There are plenty of jobs out there that take no experience whatsoever and start over 10 bucks an hour.

[BWToth 0]

Your missing the point, how is the opportunity to go to a community college equal to the opportunity of gonig to a top 25 school for the kids that went to the 'middle-class' school with all the AP classes and good teachers? It's NOT equal. You're saying that their opportunity for something LESS is equal to someone else's opportunity for something MORE. Are you racist, or just a snob or what?Can you support a family working 40hrs a week for 10/hr? NO."All I did is show that the playing field is equal if one is willing to do a little footwork." This sums up where you have some sort of mental block about what you are talking about. How is it an equal playing field if for 'person 1' to obtain 'outcome A' it takes X amount of 'footwork' and for 'person 2' to obtain 'outcome A' is takes 5X amount of 'footwork'?does that make sense to you at all? If not I'm realizing that you're delusional about more subjects than just religion.

[semaj550 0]

Your missing the point, how is the opportunity to go to a community college equal to the opportunity of gonig to a top 25 school for the kids that went to the 'middle-class' school with all the AP classes and good teachers? It's NOT equal. You're saying that their opportunity for something LESS is equal to someone else's opportunity for something MORE. Are you racist, or just a snob or what?

But shouldn't one of the benefits of working hard and making a lot of money be the ablity to enjoy the fruits of your labour? Increased purchasing power means the ability to send your kids to an expensive school. For someone who didn't start off with wealth maybe that means working 2 jobs for a few years to save the tuition to go to the same expensive school but it's definately doable. I think there is an onus on everyone to help those who are trying to help themselves. I think it's taking advantage of people's charity to sit around and demand handouts because you weren't born to a wealthy family.

[BWToth 0]

But shouldn't one of the benefits of working hard and making a lot of money be the ablity to enjoy the fruits of your labour? Increased purchasing power means the ability to send your kids to an expensive school. For someone who didn't start off with wealth maybe that means working 2 jobs for a few years to save the tuition to go to the same expensive school but it's definately doable. I think there is an onus on everyone to help those who are trying to help themselves. I think it's taking advantage of people's charity to sit around and demand handouts because you weren't born to a wealthy family.

So kids in middle-class families deserve the right to access to top 25 schools but low income areas don't? Based on what grounds? The point is that even if the kids in the low income schools work super hard they still dont' have access to the same resources as the middle-class kids, we're talking public schools mind you, and thus they don't have an EQUAL opportunity.It's nto an issue of wealth to send them there, if the inner city kids were smart enuogh they could go for free, problem is their lack of thigns such as AP courses, good teachers, extracirricular blah blah blah means their chance of getting accepted to one of those schools in the first place is significantly lower than their white middle class counterparts.

[semaj550 0]

So kids in middle-class families deserve the right to access to top 25 schools but low income areas don't? Based on what grounds? The point is that even if the kids in the low income schools work super hard they still dont' have access to the same resources as the middle-class kids, we're talking public schools mind you, and thus they don't have an EQUAL opportunity.It's nto an issue of wealth to send them there, if the inner city kids were smart enuogh they could go for free, problem is their lack of thigns such as AP courses, good teachers, extracirricular blah blah blah means their chance of getting accepted to one of those schools in the first place is significantly lower than their white middle class counterparts.

I think Lois' comment of it being too late for America was directed at this very dilema.Let's start from a theoretical beginning in a brand new country, everyone starts on a level playing field.Now you have a great work ethic, work 3 jobs for $8/hour and scrape together enough money for your old daughter to go to the equivalent of Princeton in our new country. She gets a great education, makes $175,000/year and sends her kids to Princeton as well. They then go on to make $300,000/year and the cycle continues.Me, on the otherhand, I'm lazy and useless (for argument's sake :-P). I work on and off when I feel like it and generally end up with an annual income of about $10,000. I beg and steal for everything I can't buy. Princeton for my 7 kids? Yeah right! So they go on and basically live the same life I did.We've been doing this for so long that the wealth has become very unevenly distributed. How do you just turn back the clock and start fresh again? How do we know that would even fix things and we wouldn't just end up back where we are now? I would love to help people who are willing to help themselves, it just seems that we have less of those folks and more of the ones who demand handouts for nothing.We certainly need to do more to help the disadvantaged but what do we do? How do we come up with a practical, workable solution? Throwing money away and claiming that we are giving people opportunities isn't the answer, we need something more viable and that's a huge problem given the disparity between rich and poor as it stands now.