Economic Justice

[Loismustdie 0]

Yes, I knew that, I was responding about your post to both you and him. I know he wouldn't mention family values, and I would like to ask him why he wouldn't mention them, or anything else besides an unfair government and/or uncaring population.

Ahh, I understand now. I am curious as to what he says to that. Ultimately, what it will come down to is the idea that there is alwasy somebody else to blame besides oneself, which drives me nuts. My mom lived on welfare for like 15 years(my dad left when I was 5) She really had no choice, so she made do. To help take care of things I worked every summer since I was 12 so I could buy all my own stuff, all of us kids did, for the most part.(She had 6) All of us do pretty well except for one, who I spoke of earlier. My mom now has a good job with a brokerage firm, she is close to a college degree, but this has been a process that started like 12 years ago. She did her best considering we were all alone- she stayed home on welfare when she didn't want to because she knew she had to raise her kids, there was no other way. We damn sure weren't going to raise ourselves. She sacrificed alot. Now, it is all paying off, so I hear guys like Toth spout there beliefs and it just sickens me because it's not reality- people can be successful no matter there circumstances, they just need to want it. I could tell you all sorts of stories-maybe I will someday.

[BWToth 0]

uncaring govt., uncaring population or family values is just like chicken or the egg.which came first, which led to which, fixing which will fix which?More to come in the morning, when I can more articulately channel my frustration with this putting words in my mouth.

[jmkiser 0]

Lois, have you ever heard of white flight? Do you realize that the white race has been in a more beneficial place in this country over the past two hundred years then the black race?I make no excuses... I only point out reality.An average white person's grandfather wasn't persecuted and withheld education from.You make the point that everyone has equal opportunity and are given the same resources. Yes, this is true. Every person... white, black, asian, hispanic, etc. can utilize human determination and a solid work ethic to achieve in this country. That is what capitalism is about.But let's go back and look at reality, though, too. I'll use my home city of Indianapolis and the surrounding areas. I grew up in the suburb of Fishers... right by the more well known Carmel. Economic prosperity in these VERY predominantly white suburbs is very high. The education received from Carmel High School or Hamilton Southeastern High School (my school... for the Fishers kids) AND the opportunities available are not the same for IPS students. Efforts are being done to alleviate that, but opportunity for certain "groups" of people (especially by their birth) are higher then others due to many historical factors such as white flight... and then the division between these "groups" of people continue because of present factors such as money. The white people in the suburbs just, realistically, make more money then the black people in the city... a lot of that has to do with generational factors. Little black Johnny in IPS's mother works her *** off in a 9-5 building security position because when she was a child, she didn't have the ability to reach higher education... her grade school education was also sub par to little white Johnny's mama's education because of the racial problems in those days.Positive and realistic measures are being done in the present, though. The gap between the inner city education and the suburban education is closing as more attention is being focused to the obvious problems. The difference between little black Johnny and his mother is that little black Johnny is going to be able to apply for more scholarships, is going to be open to more grants, etc. just like the little white Johnny's of the world are.Point being... where issues of inequality of opportunity exist, actions are being taken to equalize them. No... there is NOT discrimination between the races in that manner. What people don't tend to understand is that actions are being taken to equalize opportunity to erase discrimination. Where we can get to that day a few more generations down the line where all the little black Johnny's and all the little white Johnny's are all the same. It will FINALLY be a time where no one can say that one group is getting more recognition then the other because everyone will finally be the ****ing same.By the way, if we all just grown up in my ideal society ... NONE OF THIS WOULD'VE EVER HAPPENED!!!!! hahahahaha

[Zealous Donkey 0]

Lois, have you ever heard of white flight? Do you realize that the white race has been in a more beneficial place in this country over the past two hundred years then the black race?I make no excuses... I only point out reality.An average white person's grandfather wasn't persecuted and withheld education from.You make the point that everyone has equal opportunity and are given the same resources. Yes, this is true. Every person... white, black, asian, hispanic, etc. can utilize human determination and a solid work ethic to achieve in this country. That is what capitalism is about.But let's go back and look at reality, though, too. I'll use my home city of Indianapolis and the surrounding areas. I grew up in the suburb of Fishers... right by the more well known Carmel. Economic prosperity in these VERY predominantly white suburbs is very high. The education received from Carmel High School or Hamilton Southeastern High School (my school... for the Fishers kids) AND the opportunities available are not the same for IPS students. Efforts are being done to alleviate that, but opportunity for certain "groups" of people (especially by their birth) are higher then others due to many historical factors such as white flight... and then the division between these "groups" of people continue because of present factors such as money. The white people in the suburbs just, realistically, make more money then the black people in the city... a lot of that has to do with generational factors. Little black Johnny in IPS's mother works her *** off in a 9-5 building security position because when she was a child, she didn't have the ability to reach higher education... her grade school education was also sub par to little white Johnny's mama's education because of the racial problems in those days.Positive and realistic measures are being done in the present, though. The gap between the inner city education and the suburban education is closing as more attention is being focused to the obvious problems. The difference between little black Johnny and his mother is that little black Johnny is going to be able to apply for more scholarships, is going to be open to more grants, etc. just like the little white Johnny's of the world are.Point being... where issues of inequality of opportunity exist, actions are being taken to equalize them. No... there is NOT discrimination between the races in that manner. What people don't tend to understand is that actions are being taken to equalize opportunity to erase discrimination. Where we can get to that day a few more generations down the line where all the little black Johnny's and all the little white Johnny's are all the same. It will FINALLY be a time where no one can say that one group is getting more recognition then the other because everyone will finally be the ****ing same.By the way, if we all just grown up in my ideal society ... NONE OF THIS WOULD'VE EVER HAPPENED!!!!! hahahahaha

I agree that all of that is true, but it won't matter if we completely wipe out all discrimination and racism( which will never happen) if the 'sins' I mentioned before aren't addressed.

[jmkiser 0]

Agreed... I read what you wrote above and all of those "evils" have causes to them. Many causes by the religious Christians with "good intentions" but most causes by our ignorant and uncaring government... example: drug laws (hypocritical and used by people running for office to play on people's incorrect and over sensationalized fears), security, etc. You also get into those family problems which I find is amusingly MUCH more rampant in religious red states example: promiscuous teenagers, deadbeat dads, single mom homes, etc...(If you didn't get it, this is my overly cynical post about how Christians are ruining our country)But, honestly, it's all shrug offable (my new word). Everything that is good needs bad. Certain evils just exist... same with certain goods.... life would ridiculously mundane and miserable if there wasn't that balance. Things need to be unfair... groups of people are going to be treated wrongly... this **** will always happen :)Just like puppy-butterfly-bunnies-chocolate-covered-rainbows will always be good

[DonkSlayer 1]

Lois, have you ever heard of white flight?

Ehhh not that it matters to your overall point, but white flight is people leaving areas to move to another, and bringing the wealth with them, not moving to an area that just happens to be more wealthy and spontaneously provides more no-earn opportunity, as your post would seem to suggest:

Do you realize that the white race has been in a more beneficial place in this country over the past two hundred years then the black race?

[BWToth 0]

This is getting out of control.First of all this is typical conservative speak where one problem is addressed, and a point is made but you dont' want to admit that so you throw in some other facet of the converstation and say "what about this!", then if i address family values you'll end up on some tangent about "what about prayer in schools", "how can we take money away from defense budget and give it to schools", "What about the huge increase in taxes" etc. etc. etc. etc. It won't end.

Wildly promiscuous teens & preteens, the objectivication of women, deadbeat dads, single mother homes, lack of respect for the law, dependence on govt., drug and alchohol abuse. Envy, Revenge, Gluttony, Pride, Lust, have nothing to do with consequences suffered by the people. It is just a careless govt.

Yes, I knew that, I was responding about your post to both you and him. I know he wouldn't mention family values, and I would like to ask him why he wouldn't mention them, or anything else besides an unfair government and/or uncaring population.

Although, made a statement that was in agreeance with me earlier, about the bigotry of the inequality being ok, you now make this sarcastic statement, so I really have no idea what you are trying to get at. Just because I ommitted talking about family values (in a converstation about schooling and healthcare, so wierd) does NOT mean I think they are unimporant, and it is ignorant of you to assume that I think that way. The problem is it's a bit easier to do something to change the schools, or health care around in this country than is is to force someone's mommy to love them more. Also, this 'bad family values' problem that you think is so prevalent and the be all end all causation of the problems in our country actually stems from other socio-economic issues. It's hard for a mom or dad to be there to teach her child good values when she has to work 18 hours a day just to put food on the table.

We damn sure weren't going to raise ourselves. She sacrificed alot. Now, it is all paying off, so I hear guys like Toth spout there beliefs and it just sickens me because it's not reality- people can be successful no matter there circumstances,

You still don't get it. What part have I said that isn't reality. You still don't get the basic point i've been making this whole time, for about the fifth time. "But their is not equality across the board, and the disparity comes between the rich and poor (regardless of ethnicity or culture). Simply because a child is born to a mother who is at the bottom of the economic spectrum does not mean that he/she should receive a level of schooling or healthcare that is lower than a child born into a well to do family."The point is, JUST BECAUSE IF THEY WORK HARD THEY CAN STILL BE SUCCESSFUL DOESN'T MEAN THAT SHOULD BE FORCED TO HAVE TO WORK HARDER AND BE MORE DETERMINED TO GAIN AND EQUAL AMOUNT OF SUCCESS AS SOMEONE WHO HAS MORE OPPORTUNITIES FROM THE START.the simple question I will pose to you is: Do you think all schools should be equal? Do you think every child deserves the right to full health care? I'm assuming you're going to answer yes because you seem to be a decent human. Now if you do answer yes, the next fact is that neither of these two things are currently equal. That means something needs to be done about that. Next question: do you think something needs to be done about that?

Well this is true but it is also true that a higher percentage of african americans are thrust into the situation where they are the group that has to work harder and be more determined. If one can acknowledge this and feel that it is ok to continue it is, not necessarily racist, but at the very least bigoted.

Zealous, you think the way to fix this problem, which you and I both stated as a problem is soley by changing around the family values of each american household?

[BWToth 0]

Agreed... I read what you wrote above and all of those "evils" have causes to them. Many causes by the religious Christians with "good intentions" but most causes by our ignorant and uncaring government... example: drug laws (hypocritical and used by people running for office to play on people's incorrect and over sensationalized fears), security, etc. You also get into those family problems which I find is amusingly MUCH more rampant in religious red states example: promiscuous teenagers, deadbeat dads, single mom homes, etc...(If you didn't get it, this is my overly cynical post about how Christians are ruining our country)But, honestly, it's all shrug offable (my new word). Everything that is good needs bad. Certain evils just exist... same with certain goods.... life would ridiculously mundane and miserable if there wasn't that balance. Things need to be unfair... groups of people are going to be treated wrongly... this **** will always happen :)Just like puppy-butterfly-bunnies-chocolate-covered-rainbows will always be good

Does that mean you're ok with the way things are currently? Due to the fact that things will never be perfect we shouldn't even try to make them better?I dont' think you feel that way. But you're closing statement there is just bery pessimistic based on the things you stated earlier.Also, I don't know how you can make the statement about white people being more beneficial to our country than black people. This is one of the most ignorant things i've heard in awhile.You are all over the place with what you're saying.Some clarifications would be nice. Thanks.

[DonkSlayer 1]

the simple question I will pose to you is: Do you think all schools should be equal?

It's an impossibility, but I think we can work toward it being very close. However, I believe we should select a high standard, and bring the ones below up to that standard, rather than risking lowering the quality at well-performing schools.

Do you think every child deserves the right to full health care?

No. Health care is a privilege. You cannot justify free health care in a natural-rights conversation. Personally, I think it'd be nice to make sure everyone in the US has it before we spend money to provide it to other countries. I do not believe, though, that some sort of right exists.

Zealous, you think the way to fix this problem, which you and I both stated as a problem is soley by changing around the family values of each american household?

Not immediately. However, if somehow we could socialize ourselves into believing that marriage was the best and really only way children should be brought in and raised, and that priority should be on a roof, education and health care vs. "want" items, then yes, I think the problem would be largely fixed in two or three generations.

[BWToth 0]

It's an impossibility, but I think we can work toward it being very close. However, I believe we should select a high standard, and bring the ones below up to that standard, rather than risking lowering the quality at well-performing schools.

Ok, point is you agree that things need to be done. Next step is what are you willing to have happen. Any of the many suggestions i've made? No, if so then you better start naming some.Lois, what about you, as this is who the question was originally intended for.

No. Health care is a privilege. You cannot justify free health care in a natural-rights conversation.

What about a right of citizens of the united states, it's not free anyways, it comes from taxes. I'm not even talking about health care as a right i'm talking about under the current condidtions and the fact that it is possible to provide healthcare, but we choose not to. It's not talking about any huge sacrifice by you, or doctors, its about the reallocation of funds, and the creation of different programs and facilities that are well within the bounds of our current economic and political structure. The only thing keeping it from become a reality are logicistics and party lines, and people like you.

Not immediately. However, if somehow we could socialize ourselves into believing that marriage was the best and really only way children should be brought in and raised, and that priority should be on a roof, education and health care vs. "want" items, then yes, I think the problem would be largely fixed in two or three generations.

Just because a child's parents are married doesn't mean they will automatically raise him with good 'family values'. I don't know what you mean by 'on a roof'What about the rest of my previous post??

[semaj550 0]

All of this is completely wrong, for this reason: everybody has access to the same programs/resources, and as a matter of fact there are some that Whites don't have access too. So, when you say less resources you mean a certain sector of society isn't born into money, and I don't care about that. The reality is this- there are alot of poor people, black and white, all of which have access to programs that help them get back on there feet, and that's all that can be done. Here is how it should be done, this is somebody I know that is dealing with a situation right now. Here's the setup: White male lives in Kansas, 4 kids, a wife that decides she no longer wants to be with him. This happens, that's life. He doesn't take it real well, heads back home for awhile, gets back into drugs,meth,weed,etc. Starts to miss his kids, can't stand it, heads back to Kansas. Problem is he isn't clean, and gets busted in a car with some friends of his, and everybodys holding. So, he spends some time in jail- this isn't his first offense. He spends the holidays in jail. Now, he's out, he's behind on his rent,he has no job,and he is stuck- he can't leave the city while he's on probation(a year), so while his family wants him to come home to regroup, it's not possible, not to mention that he doesn't want to anyway, he wants to be close to his kids so he can see them on the weekend. He has a job now, making 6 bucks an hour with some telemarketing company. His rent is almost caught up but now the utilities are shut off. His family heres how bad it really is and this is what they are doing: They put his water on there credit, and 2 brothers are splitting that bill and his electric. They are not really sure what he needs in his apartment so they are loading up some various things, a futon,blankets,pillows,some new clothes, etc. into a truck, and driving 18 hours twice in a 3 day period to asses the situation. One of them is considering putting him on his cell plan,so the guy can always stay in touch, have someone to talk to, have support. It would only be like an extra 20 a month and just up the minutes a bit- no big deal. When they get there they plan on taking him shopping for some neccesities,getting him a haircut so he can look decent for job interviews, probably setting up an account with a dentist because drugs **** up your mouth. Once they take it all in they can form a plan to get the guy back on his feet, get him a real job,or at least helping him find a second one- this may take each of them filling out applications online for jobs in the guys area. Anyway, point of the story is that I believe they are doing the right thing, and if he has a mind to work eventually he will be back on his own 2 feet. That guy in Kansas is my brother. It's a shitty situation but nobodys crying and saying poor me- my brother isn't even saying that, besides the water thing he doesn't know what is going on. Anyway, we figure out who can afford what between the 4 siblings that are doing well and we put our head down and find solutions, like anybody group of people can. We leave sometime around the 15th. Hell, it's still a roadtrip, it will be nice to spend some quality time with my other brother.

God bless you. This is exactly what more people should be doing.

[BWToth 0]

God bless you. This is exactly what more people should be doing.

You mean making up lies, skewing the truth, onlying believing what they want to believe, being bigots and unaccepting of other people's views?Those dont' sound like very christian attributes. How come no one will rebutt my acutaly arguments instead of just going off on other tangents. Oh, right, it's because you can't, becuase mine are TRUE.

[jmkiser 0]

God bless you. This is exactly what more people should be doing.

People working hard to get out of their tough situations are going to be one in a million just like they realistically are today.

[jmkiser 0]

Does that mean you're ok with the way things are currently? Due to the fact that things will never be perfect we shouldn't even try to make them better?I dont' think you feel that way. But you're closing statement there is just bery pessimistic based on the things you stated earlier.Also, I don't know how you can make the statement about white people being more beneficial to our country than black people. This is one of the most ignorant things i've heard in awhile.You are all over the place with what you're saying.Some clarifications would be nice. Thanks.

No, I'm not ok with the way things are.. you know that. I have to accept, though, that there will be a variety of good and bad... but, yes, I apologize... I am a bit more pessimistic regarding the possibility for positive change in this country. I don't see how the people in power are ever going to relinquish the power and anything short of stampeding Congress won't change to much, in my opinion.I've never believed EVER EVER EVER that white people are more beneficial to this country than black people. You must've misunderstood something that I said earlier. I would look through and find out what that is, but I'm feeling inherently lazy today. Maybe if you feel like responding you can quote what I said that you're confused about? Because I definitely never have been under the belief that white people are more beneficial to this country.In my first longer post, I pretty much took the issue to heart and mind. Yes, my second post was more giving in that fact that... well, I am with little optimism. I am always of the belief that change is needed to improve this country and I've done everything under the sun.. within my legal power and financial ability... at this point. The people of this country are ignored until they yell loud enough. Problem is... the people never yell loud enough about anything important. Maybe I can clarify this a little better by saying that I have my views, but I'm pessimistic about improvement. Anything else I can clarify?

[DonkSlayer 1]

What about a right of citizens of the united states, it's not free anyways, it comes from taxes. I'm not even talking about health care as a right i'm talking about under the current condidtions and the fact that it is possible to provide healthcare, but we choose not to.

Well, I'm not exactly sure what these statements mean. I don't think anything in our Constitution guarantees us the right to healthcare. NOW, if I don't get back ALL the money the government is taking from me for Social Security and Medicare, I'm going to be ULTRA-PIS.SED, but I thought you were talking more the philosphical right of "people" to receive healthcare, which I don't believe exists in our American society today.I think we agree that it would be nice. I personally support a system where doctors get paid like rockstars and medicine producers have competition to motivate them though, so I'd prefer to have the government pick up the pieces rather than become THE healthcare provider in the nation. But you're right, at this point, the gov. is choosing not too. I think we could cut some pork projects and contribute that money to healthcare provision, for sure..but one man's pork is another man's priority.

Just because a child's parents are married doesn't mean they will automatically raise him with good 'family values'. I don't know what you mean by 'on a roof'What about the rest of my previous post??

I mean't like "a roof over their heads" but I sucked. I certainly understand that marriage does not equal automatically positive family values, but I do believe it's a valuable component.

[BWToth 0]

Do you realize that the white race has been in a more beneficial place in this country over the past two hundred years then the black race?

I think this is post #171 back one page jm.I want to here lois's replies to your's mine and slayer's posts since he's last been here.

[jmkiser 0]

oh, you misunderstood me, buddyI was not saying that the white race was more beneficial to this country.I was saying that the white race has been in a more beneficial place (place referring to an ideal of being.... well off... if you get what I'm saying)... the white race has been the race which has been more "well off" then the black race has in this country over the last 200 years.Definitely nothing about the white race being more TO this country.

[BWToth 0]

gotcha.

[Zealous Donkey 0]

This is getting out of control.First of all this is typical conservative speak where one problem is addressed, and a point is made but you dont' want to admit that so you throw in some other facet of the converstation and say "what about this!", then if i address family values you'll end up on some tangent about "what about prayer in schools", "how can we take money away from defense budget and give it to schools", "What about the huge increase in taxes" etc. etc. etc. etc. It won't end.

I don't know what your whining about here. My point was clear. That there is not much that can be done about the schooling because the things that would actually work are rejected the by left wingers who run the school districts. Have you ever seen the movie "Lean on Me"? That was a true story, and Joe Clark is a real guy. The school district did manage to get him fired later though it wasn't shown in the movie. Now the schools have already been surrendered to you BWtoth, you have em, and can't make em work, but won't allow anyone else to do what needs to be done. You will ask for more funding, better teachers, but none of that will help by itself. OK maybe you don't have the schools since you obviously recognize the failure of public schools, but you keep bring up 'conservative' in your arguments and conservatives have been kicked out of education along with the Joe Clarks of the world. Now the innercity schools are simply reaping what they have sowed. Are children being put at a great disadvantage becuase of this? Yes they are and that is a tragedy, but the government is powerless to change things in the current climate.

[Zealous Donkey 0]

This is getting out of control. It's hard for a mom or dad to be there to teach her child good values when she has to work 18 hours a day just to put food on the table.You still don't get it. What part have I said that isn't reality. You still don't get the basic point i've been making this whole time, for about the fifth time.

Yes, thats the problem, mom and dad are working 18 hours a day to put food on the table.(sw) BWToth do you really believe that? Im not saying there are not some people doing that, but they won't be down for long if they are working that hard. Do you think people that work 18 hours a day should have benefits taken away? Your fellow democrats do. There is incentive not to work, now ask yourself why that is. To keep them dependent on the govt check. Wait till the presidential campagns began, listen to Hillary, and the other candadates promising to keep the checks coming and/or sending more checks. An underclass dependent on the govt, provides a nice block of votes for democrats. Lois was right about this the whole time.

[Zealous Donkey 0]

Zealous, you think the way to fix this problem, which you and I both stated as a problem is soley by changing around the family values of each american household?

Yes and No. I am saying the govenment can't do anything. Anything that would actually work will be rejected. aka Charter Schools, finally some people threw up their hands and said, oK we aren't allowed to change these schools so lets start some charter schools so those kids stuck in the shitty city schools have an alternative. But now even that is under attack. The leftwingers and the teachers unions are like no not only are we going to keep the schools as shitty as possible we aren't going to allow anyone a way out. That is absolute reality.

[BWToth 0]

what are the policices of the left wing and teachers's union who's goal is to keep schools as bad as possible?since the govt. can't do anything, what do you propose? nothing?You think someone working 18 hours a day is a good thing?I'd like to find that quote where a women tells bush 'yes i am working 3 jobs right now to supporty my family', and bush says, 'good for you, the american dream'.People shouldn't have to work 18 hours a day to support their family in the first place. That is part of your delusion.

[DonkSlayer 1]

You think someone working 18 hours a day is a good thing?

Not really.

I'd like to find that quote where a women tells bush 'yes i am working 3 jobs right now to supporty my family', and bush says, 'good for you, the american dream'.People shouldn't have to work 18 hours a day to support their family in the first place. That is part of your delusion.

People that have to work 18 hours a day to support a family shouldn't have had one. That's part of your delusion.

[BWToth 0]

So people should be denied the right of posterity because they are unable to obtain a job that pays well enough for them to support a child?Do you really think this makes a lot of sense?

[Zealous Donkey 0]

what are the policices of the left wing and teachers's union who's goal is to keep schools as bad as possible?since the govt. can't do anything, what do you propose? nothing?You think someone working 18 hours a day is a good thing?I'd like to find that quote where a women tells bush 'yes i am working 3 jobs right now to supporty my family', and bush says, 'good for you, the american dream'.People shouldn't have to work 18 hours a day to support their family in the first place. That is part of your delusion.

Not maintaining discipline in the schools, allowing blantant insubordination of students. Indoctinating students with antiamerican propaganda( see nea website right after 911). Diagnosing criminals with some obscure psychological disorder so the school has to keep them. The only teachers they can hire are those that can't find jobs anywhere else. No decent teacher is going to teach in that environment. The soft bigotry of low expectations. The misallocation and theft of funds, I will let others take it from here. No I wouldn't work 18 hours a day, I would sit around and hope someone gave me a free check. You are the one who is delusional. There are all kinds of things being offered out therer, but those effected reject them. They are reaping what they have sewn.