good laydown or silly laydown? comment on play?

[ofplayer 0]

Already, I'm on the button of a home game, 5 cent and 10 cent blinds, 5 handed. 2 players call, and I pick up Ac Qc and raise it to 45 cents. Both players call (I have about 11 dollars, player A has first position and 6 dollars, player B has 8 dollars.)Flop comes 8s Ah Qh. This is obviously a good flop, but a bit scary. Player A checks, and player B bets 35 cents. Player B does not have much experience at all and has no idea how to play poker in general. However, I didn't want to chase him away too much and didn't want to give too many draws, so I raised it to 1.25, hoping that I could extract a lot with Ax or other likewise hands (no way is this player letting that go). Player A folds, and he calls.Turn card is the 3 of hearts. I don't like this card at all. He checks. I start thinking about this. I start thinking: he did call a raise, didn't he? But he is capable of calling a raise with a suited connector or even something as silly as 9-6 suited. Regardless, I don't want to give a free card to KJ with a high heart or J10, so I bet 2 dollars. He calls almost immediately.Turn came 5 of clubs. Now he bets 2.00. I think there's no way this is a bluff bet, that's too small of a bluff.I've got a dilemma now. He's not bluffing. The only hand he could hold is A5, and even that he might check. He checked two pairs down about a half hour before. This is only the second time he's actually bet and not called in an hour. But I'm getting really good odds here. The 35 cent bet smells like wanting to see the next card cheap. He looks pretty strong after I'm reading him. But I have no idea how strong: he'd think A5 is pretty strong. I never saw his hand, but I ended up folding my hand face up. Everyone at the table was like "WOW", and after another hand where I made a just call with an A-10-6-3-2 board with 10-6, (against A6, I only lost 75 cents!), people started to move me off hands and I started to catch them. Unfortunately, at the end I got sucked out and I ended back at 10 dollars near the end when someone moved in with A4 with a flop of J104 and I raised them with J10 and they caught a 4.But was this the right play? Should I have called? Or raised? should I have bet more earlier, especially with a player who will give me their chips if I don't pressure them too quickly with Ax?,

[pokerplayer24 0]

Folding was a bad play. The pot had to be 6 or 7 dollars before he bet so you were probly committed to calling that bet. AND if you consider an AQ8 flop scary when you have AQ i don't know what kind of flop you are looking to get.

[karasz 0]

stacks A= 6B= 8 U= 11pre flop .45*3= 1.35A- 5.55 B- 7.55 U- 10.55flop 8s Ah Qhbetting pot= 1.35A check B .35 U 1.25A foldsB .90B- 6.30 U- 9.30POT = 3.85turn 3hB checkU 2B 2B- 4.35 U- 7.30POT 7.85River 5c B 2U foldB-2.35 U-7.30POT = 9.85you were getting almost 5-1... but if you thought you were beat i guess it was the right move. always go with your instincts. but showing your fold was dumb, why put the thought that you were bluffable in their heads? i would have called and probably lost 2 more bucks.

[HtotheNootch 0]

Why didn't you move in on the flop?

[AC BillP 0]

General idea is a weak passive player calls flush draws very fast and straight draws very slowly. Since he called so quickly I'd put him on a low flush draw on the flop rather than a A high flush draw, but it's still possible he had AK with A of hearts or even 3 8's. It's a close call and really depends on what type of cards he's been showing and your read.I'd never show him the AQ though unless you called and he asked.

[jack24bauer24 0]

What kind of fold is this?You shouldn't be playing poker.

[wrto4556 0]

What kind of fold is this?You shouldn't be playing poker.

EDIT: You should be playing poker. Make this call, you only have to have the best hand 1 in 5 times. I think you have it. Also, make a big raise on the flop. You have top two pair on a coordinated board, you really want to make people pay for their draws. Learn from your mistake.

[jack24bauer24 0]

What exactly did you think he had? What kind of flop are you looking for? How can you not call the bet on the river?

[SplashMaster 0]

Why didn't you move in on the flop?

why move in? to assure yourself the only hand that will call you will have you beat?you would bet 10.00 to win 1.35? I wouldnt.your raise on the flop was too small. when he bets 45 cents make it $3.45. that will make it incorrect to draw for a flush.

[kouta43 0]

how can you fold top 2 pair heads up when getting 5-1? I think conservatively you are 50-50 here from what you have told us, and probably more- i think ace anything from your opponent is very possible, more likely than a flush. I just think there is no way folding is the right move unless you have xray vision, or its a hot chick and you want to go all in with her later

[Erudis 0]

geez man, pucker up and call the river bet. you can't look to make the 'perfect' move every time. sometimes when the price is right, you just call even when you're not if you have the best hand or not. bad lay down.

[Swift_Psycho 1]

Bad fold on the river for that price. Going with your instincts is only a good play when you are faced with a very tough situation. Getting such a great price on your money on the river, it's an easy decision. You don't have to be right very often for this to be a profitable call.The flop raise was really bad too. Too many people make small raises looking for action, and they end up giving people a good price to draw out on them. You should have raised the flop substantially more to make drawing to a flush or gutshot straight incorrect.

[ofplayer 0]

Why didn't you move in on the flop?

.your raise on the flop was too small. when he bets 45 cents make it $3.45. that will make it incorrect to draw for a flush.

I just don't understand making it THAT much. Don't I want to keep Ax around? By the turn I should have a very good read of exactly what he has, but if I raise 3 dollars, it's essentially raising all in. That's half my opponent's stack. Shouldn't the big bet here come at the turn?I don't know, instinctually I think I should be getting more than this 1.80 pot with AQ, and I know from experience that a 3 dollar reraise makes people go away or raise all-in. The only hands that will raise all in are hands that I'm 50-50 with or even behind, unless it is exactly Q8 or A8. We're 5 handed. Not full ring. I can't keep raising 3 dollars every time. Even just on the flop, the odds are that he does not have a draw, he has something else, and I don't want to lose the action. Why not let him hang himself here? I'm not folding AQ on the flop, that's pretty obvious. People in this game have no idea that you can actually call with nothing. Remember that they had to call a raise preflop: it's a lot MORE likely just on the flop that they have Ax than it is a flush draw. I can see making it something like 1.75, but a 3 dollar raise chases away all my action. And I can't bluff that much money, so when I do my normal betting the pot after the flop when any reasonable card hits, people are going to start calling more often because "Well, when he had something really good he raised a lot more". AQ is a monster. I'm not against AA or 88 or QQ very often at all, there's no reason why I need to find out where I am. If I'm not ahead I'm willing to double someone up. But I need to play to their chip stacks.In a full ring game, it's different. But short handed, you NEED to steal pots, even against passive players. You need to raise preflop with KQ and put in a flop sized bet when an ace shows up if it's checked back to you. You can't afford to give away monsters, and when you hit one, why should you play it fast just because there are draws, when it is more likely that the callers have pairs and not draws? What kind of hand could they have at the flop after the small bet? Sure, they could have 8-9 of hearts, or J10, and if they have AK or A8 I'm getting there money anyway, but that still leaves KQ, AJ, A10, A9, A7, KQ, or someone being irrational with an 8 or another queen. Or an inside straight draw, but I'd think 1.25 should be enough to make inside straight draws fold.Everyone knows a bet is coming at the turn, so the flush/straight draw is only getting one card unless he wants to be silly and risk half a big chunk of his stack if he misses his draw. And just because he makes his draw doesn't mean he's getting all my chips either.I don't get what type of price I'd need. If he bet all of his chips, I'm getting the insinuation that I'd still have to call getting more than 3 to 1 on my money. With a small bet, I am MORE SURE that I am beat. And it fits with the rest of his pattern, the way he's been playing within the hour. And his calls and bets have basically been SCREAMING flush. Ax doesn't make sense in this instance with a player who has just been playing so tight and knows that I have a big hand. It doesn't make sense to call a two dollar bet on the turn and then bet half of your remaining stack with Ax. The small bet on the flop doesn't make sense with Ax. And the quick calling, the entire thing just doesn't make sense with Ax. Plus, the difference between 7.35 and 5.35 is a lot bigger than 9.35 and 7.35 when the average stack is 7.50.It's not like I'm gonna fold every time I get AQ and hit two pairs. I'm not asking that. I just don't know how to apply enough pressure in a short handed game without giving too much away. The books certainly don't say to raise the pot that much. And short handed I can't just wait for hands and win big pots with big hands, because I simply don't have enough time. I'm just sort of confused as to why you'd want to bet so much on the flop. With the amount of information and tells that I had over watching the game for an hour, and considering my stack size, what IS the right price to fold my hand?

[HtotheNootch 0]

Why didn't you move in on the flop?

why move in? to assure yourself the only hand that will call you will have you beat?you would bet 10.00 to win 1.35? I wouldnt.your raise on the flop was too small. when he bets 45 cents make it $3.45. that will make it incorrect to draw for a flush.

I like your play. That's probably better than moving in, however I completely agree that the point is to make a bet big enough to make the draw a poor play.It's better to win $1.35 then to lose lose $5.

[Swift_Psycho 1]

Why didn't you move in on the flop?

.your raise on the flop was too small. when he bets 45 cents make it $3.45. that will make it incorrect to draw for a flush.

I just don't understand making it THAT much. Don't I want to keep Ax around? By the turn I should have a very good read of exactly what he has, but if I raise 3 dollars, it's essentially raising all in. That's half my opponent's stack. Shouldn't the big bet here come at the turn?I don't know, instinctually I think I should be getting more than this 1.80 pot with AQ, and I know from experience that a 3 dollar reraise makes people go away or raise all-in. The only hands that will raise all in are hands that I'm 50-50 with or even behind, unless it is exactly Q8 or A8. We're 5 handed. Not full ring. I can't keep raising 3 dollars every time. Even just on the flop, the odds are that he does not have a draw, he has something else, and I don't want to lose the action. Why not let him hang himself here? I'm not folding AQ on the flop, that's pretty obvious. People in this game have no idea that you can actually call with nothing. Remember that they had to call a raise preflop: it's a lot MORE likely just on the flop that they have Ax than it is a flush draw. I can see making it something like 1.75, but a 3 dollar raise chases away all my action. And I can't bluff that much money, so when I do my normal betting the pot after the flop when any reasonable card hits, people are going to start calling more often because "Well, when he had something really good he raised a lot more". AQ is a monster. I'm not against AA or 88 or QQ very often at all, there's no reason why I need to find out where I am. If I'm not ahead I'm willing to double someone up. But I need to play to their chip stacks.In a full ring game, it's different. But short handed, you NEED to steal pots, even against passive players. You need to raise preflop with KQ and put in a flop sized bet when an ace shows up if it's checked back to you. You can't afford to give away monsters, and when you hit one, why should you play it fast just because there are draws, when it is more likely that the callers have pairs and not draws? What kind of hand could they have at the flop after the small bet? Sure, they could have 8-9 of hearts, or J10, and if they have AK or A8 I'm getting there money anyway, but that still leaves KQ, AJ, A10, A9, A7, KQ, or someone being irrational with an 8 or another queen. Or an inside straight draw, but I'd think 1.25 should be enough to make inside straight draws fold.Everyone knows a bet is coming at the turn, so the flush/straight draw is only getting one card unless he wants to be silly and risk half a big chunk of his stack if he misses his draw. And just because he makes his draw doesn't mean he's getting all my chips either.I don't get what type of price I'd need. If he bet all of his chips, I'm getting the insinuation that I'd still have to call getting more than 3 to 1 on my money. With a small bet, I am MORE SURE that I am beat. And it fits with the rest of his pattern, the way he's been playing within the hour. And his calls and bets have basically been SCREAMING flush. Ax doesn't make sense in this instance with a player who has just been playing so tight and knows that I have a big hand. It doesn't make sense to call a two dollar bet on the turn and then bet half of your remaining stack with Ax. The small bet on the flop doesn't make sense with Ax. And the quick calling, the entire thing just doesn't make sense with Ax. Plus, the difference between 7.35 and 5.35 is a lot bigger than 9.35 and 7.35 when the average stack is 7.50.It's not like I'm gonna fold every time I get AQ and hit two pairs. I'm not asking that. I just don't know how to apply enough pressure in a short handed game without giving too much away. The books certainly don't say to raise the pot that much. And short handed I can't just wait for hands and win big pots with big hands, because I simply don't have enough time. I'm just sort of confused as to why you'd want to bet so much on the flop. With the amount of information and tells that I had over watching the game for an hour, and considering my stack size, what IS the right price to fold my hand?

$3.45 raise probably is a little too much, but it's better than your tiny raise to $1.25. Though, this is interesting. You asked for an opinion on how we would have played the hand. In the above post, you have not brought anything new to our attention to think about(at least not mine). We disagree with how you played the hand. You are now defending how you played the hand. You didn't really want advice, did you?

[koolromeo 0]

you have to raise more on the flop for 2 reasons, one being to make them pay to draw, 2. a newbie that plays ax is going to call your raise. you should have called the river bet. when a newbie plays a board with an ace on it and you hit top 2 you should bet big. they will call with ax or worse, or they fold and you win the pot right there.

[ofplayer 0]

I just feel like I'm missing something: it feels like there should be a way to get Ax to call while getting draws to fold short handed. Even if I have to leave the draw in until the turn. I feel like logically there would have to be a way to extract more money than what is in the pot. I'm just asking how much my data (2 hands in an hour, playing 2 pair with no draws earlier very passively, preflop call, small bet on flop, quick calling, and small bet of river combined with strong read) is worth.Is that a call at 3 to 1? 2 to 1? How do you compare information about tells to mathematical figures? That's my real question.It is better to win a small pot than lose a big one. Maybe I'm just missing the concept though.What if I make a really small reraise, then watch the turn fall and then bet the turn hard (maybe 2.25) if the draw misses? That way sounds like Ax will call thinking that I'm trying to buy it there without losing a lot to draws.What if I try and call, see if the draw misses, and raise him on the turn if the draw misses? And just call him on the turn if he bets, and fold on the river if he makes a big bet at the end? This way I get a small bet on the turn too, possibly, with a chance to bust him with 4 outs if that happens. Isn't there some way to get paid off decently by Ax without losing a lot of money to draws? Or am I just being completely foolish in trying to get money from Ax and should just take the pot right here?

[ofplayer 0]

And what's a good sort of rule in this situation (big hand with draws short handed) to know how much to raise it to?Would a raise to 2.00 be enough? Do I even NEED to raise?Draws go away on the turn if they miss, Ax doesn't. I feel like I could use that somehow. Maybe I'm trying to be too fancy.

[Swift_Psycho 1]

I just feel like I'm missing something: it feels like there should be a way to get Ax to call while getting draws to fold short handed.  Even if I have to leave the draw in until the turn.  I feel like logically there would have to be a way to extract more money than what is in the pot.  I'm just asking how much my data (2 hands in an hour, playing 2 pair with no draws earlier very passively, preflop call, small bet on flop, quick calling, and small bet of river combined with strong read) is worth.Is that a call at 3 to 1?  2 to 1?  How do you compare information about tells to mathematical figures?  That's my real question.It is better to win a small pot than lose a big one.  Maybe I'm just missing the concept though.What if I make a really small reraise, then watch the turn fall and then bet the turn hard (maybe 2.25) if the draw misses?  That way sounds like Ax will call thinking that I'm trying to buy it there without losing a lot to draws.What if I try and call, see if the draw misses, and raise him on the turn if the draw misses?  And just call him on the turn if he bets, and fold on the river if he makes a big bet at the end?  This way I get a small bet on the turn too, possibly, with a chance to bust him with 4 outs if that happens.  Isn't there some way to get paid off decently by Ax without losing a lot of money to draws?  Or am I just being completely foolish in trying to get money from Ax and should just take the pot right here?

What if you just raised the flop strong like many of us suggested and stopped trying to outwit your opponents who probably aren't thinking at the level you are attempting to think at anyway?

[Swift_Psycho 1]

Maybe I'm trying to be too fancy.You are, stop thinking so hard.

[Bill Szirtes 0]

You were right he hit his second pair and was so happy to see it on the river he came out betting. If you are going to fold and turn your hand up then why not turn your hand over first( doesnt cost you anymore but you can read his reaction). He may look strong when he holds two pair a-5, but when he sees your higher two pair he will look a liitle sick.

[pokerplayer24 0]

POT = 9.85 His bet 2.35You have top 2 pair. Its one of the worst folds i've ever heard of. In no way shape or form can you justify the fold.If their were 4 hearts on the board and not just the 3 it would still be an ok call to make every time.

[Abbaddabba 0]

Draws go away on the turn if they miss

How do you figure? It depends largely on how expensive you make the next round of betting. A rational player should be willing to pay less after the turn than they were on the flop relative to the flop because the implied odds of hitting on the river is lower than on the turn (seeing as there's only one round of betting remaining), but it's not _that_ much less.

Is that a call at 3 to 1? 2 to 1? How do you compare information about tells to mathematical figures? That's my real question.

Obviously it depends on what you believe the probability of having him beat is. If you're heads up at the river, the blinds alone should justify calling any bet of his if you think there's even a 50/50 chance of you being ahead. How you would come to that estimation of probability is subjective obviously, but i cannot imagine you thinking you've got less than a 1 in 5 chance of winning the pot in the example used for this thread.

[ofplayer 0]

So what ARE the chances that I've got the best hand here? I honestly thought that adding all the variables together it was greater than 5-1.

[pokerplayer24 0]

i'd say you're at least 66% to win the hand,